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The LoB + SCS Solo Challenge and the Tales of IWDification

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Comments

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    The odds of landing Slay Living might be worse than you'd expect. Curse, Chant, Prayer, and Recitation can all be blocked by magic resistance, so even if you cast Magic Resistance on Belhifet, there's a 20% chance that each will fail.

    You only get 2 level 5 spell slots, which means you'd have to use Invisibility Purge to remove Belhifet's Improved Invisibility and its +4 bonus to his saving throws, instead of True Seeing, to make room for both Magic Resistance and Slay Living... unless you dual-classed from Necromancer to cleric, but the cleric kits are probably more valuable in the long run. It would basically go: Magic Resistance->Recitation->Prayer->Curse->Chant->Slay Living->Invisibility Purge->attack roll. That's 7 rounds of spellcasting and all of them are slow-casting, which means very little room for running around and few opportunities to summon critters. There's also not much room to re-cast spells like Prayer a second time if they fail the first time, and if Belhifet goes invisible right after Invisibility Purge due to extremely bad timing, you wouldn't have a shot at landing Slay Living.

    Plus, Invisibility Purge is a level 3 spell slot, and you only get 4 of those at best in a poverty run. You also need Animate Dead to buy you time, Protection from Fire to keep Belhifet from teleporting away and canceling your spells with Infernal Conveyance, and at least one slot for Prayer. Unless we find some other way of preventing Belhifet from casting Infernal Conveyance (his script might prioritize other spells depending on circumstances) or we give up Prayer, that only leaves us with, at most, two castings of Animate Dead. Maybe Animal Summoning I, a level 4 spell slot, could be used instead of Animate Dead to buy time.

    If there's an 80% chance of getting spells like Prayer past Belhifet's MR, Belhifet's saving throw, on average, would get penalized by 0.8+0.8+0.8+1.6 (Curse, Chant, Prayer, and Recitation), for a net save vs. spell of 4. That's a 15% chance of failing the save, or a 1.5% chance of getting the kill with Single Weapon Style.

    If you could figure out a way of landing Doom on Belhifet in spite of his MR and his ability to instantly cast Improved Invisibility, the odds would go up, but it would still require a massive number of restarts from Candlekeep until you got incredibly lucky.

    The elevator fight would be even more oppressive when it came to spell slots. It might not be possible without dual-classing from Necromancer.

    histamiiniStummvonBordwehrGrond0Harpagornis
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    edited June 9
    @semiticgod Damn that Magic Resistance sucks. Priest of Helm gets True Sight innate ability, which is why it's probably the best cleric kit for poverty, freeing one 5th level spell slot. But yeah, atm it seems not worth of even trying.

    semiticgod
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    Yeah... @semiticgod mentioned it... you will need the Skeleton Warriors for the Elevator fights and you will also need to spare some buffs on them giving even less room for Big B himself.

    Against the Big One you wont get out the Skels unless you manage to get to the cages via Sanctuary but as the Cleric lacks Haste this will cost at least two rounds on top of the whole seven round spell cycle.

    You also most likely have to use another level 4 spell slot for Free Action as Hold Person is really common and could have ended Loreths run quickly. Maybe another for Protection from Lightning against the Cornugon. And dont forget to spare one more level 5 slot for Chaotic Commands unless you are an Elf as Charm Person is all around too.

    Looks like a lot of tries to get through Big B alone... :s

    histamiiniStummvonBordwehr
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    edited June 9
    Loreth started to do some questing in Athkatla...

    Maevar: Well, the whole questline was no big deal thanks to Web + Fire Elementals while throwing in some Beetles and Chromatic Orbs. Rayic Gethras could do nothing and even Maevar and friends were completly helpless while the invisible Loreth waited in the background.

    Samuel and the Harpers: Thanks to Pixie Dust Loreth avoided the ambush and called in Fire Elementals plus Web for another easy win. Loreth then buffed up to get Montaron back to Xzar before the Spectral Harpers could do anything thanks to the fast moving Salamandre.

    Suna Seni: Same procedure as on the last ambush the poor Assassins couldnt do much.

    Circus Tent
    : I remember @semiticgod warning about this one so Loreth buffed up with lots of stuff losing even one Fire Elemental spell slot to get up Entropy Shield while walking in with Improved Invisbility so she could not get targeted directly. As poor Kalah was now unable not remove her buffs he tried Emotion:Hopelesness (say hello Remove Fear!) and summoned in Spiders before the Bombardier Beetles stunned him for an easy win.

    Gauth XP Loop: With Level 13 in the pocket i thought that it would be a good idea going down to the Beholders but that decision nearly proved to be fatal. I remembered the level draining trap and the petrifying trap near the forgotten temple but what i had forgotten was that its not rolling vs petrification but spells so all Barkskin buffing was in vain. On the good side i had buffed save vs spell down to 4 thanks to Improved Invsibility and Entropy Shield on top of Magic Resistance so the chance to die was „only“ 11,1%. >:)

    However: After rolling a 9 Loreth was able to move down to the undead blocking the path to the Beholder Lair. Here the Fire Elementals once more were crucial as none of the undead could damage them so one after another was burned down.

    The first fights against the Gauths have shown that two of them are no problem for two Fire Elementals and two or three Beetles especially if the Bombardier Beetles manage to stun them. Four or more on the other hand could be really problematic so for this part the Totemic Druid and his Spirit Animals are much better. Lets see how long we will have to stay here... hours... days? We will see! :D

    EDIT: We just reached Level 14 and the Shambling Mounds are making it even easier so each cycle costs us around 2-3 minutes. Too bad the Gauths are immune to stuns...

    Post edited by Harpagornis on
    Grond0StummvonBordwehrhistamiini
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    @Harpagornis: Your druids get Remove Fear? My druids in SCS v32 didn't have enough Remove Fear spells, IWD stuff or no.

    You can walk around the petrification trap near the forgotten temple if you edge along the north end of that bridge. You can see the trigger's hitbox with CTRL-4.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrhistamiiniHarpagornis
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    edited June 10
    You can get Remove Fear only by importing a Druid from IWD @semiticgod. Even better: You can then also chose Elf to minimize the danger of getting charmed. Without that spell Big B would have been a neverending terror...

    Oh, its possible to avoid that trap? Good to know! Would have been a pity to lose the run here... :D

    After nearly five hours and several emergency retreats using the door we finally made it to level 15 picking up the Deva. With it the killing speed increased a lot so the next levels should come in quickly! However: Its quite amazing that without Protection from Lightning the two Gauths sometimes were even to beat the two Fire Elementals and Beetles while in other rounds when critical hits destroyed their wounding eye the summons won quite easily. One time when we started to get lazy a Gauth managed to paralyze Loreth from the distance but as the Deva was already around a quick Dispel Magic saved the day. B)

    StummvonBordwehrhistamiinisemiticgod
  • Victor_Creed_SFVVictor_Creed_SFV Member Posts: 582
    Slay Living ignores Magic resistance.

    StummvonBordwehrhistamiiniHarpagornis
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    Been playing F/M/C, Nemesis the evil Half-Elf, and after some disappointments, this should handle SoD easily. Somehow I've missed the fact that WoMS too can be cast without breaking Sanctuary, which made Slythe and Krystin a trivial encounter.

    e67bb3htt16c.png

    Avarice and Fear casually killed with Skull Traps, and Love with Ring of Energy, WoMS pinning him down.

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    For the Palace Ambush charmed the assassin, mage and shaman, and the three Greater Doppelgangers didn't have a chance, nor did the rest after that with 1 on many. Sarevok and gang burned with 151 strikes from WoF without them ever seeing me, didn't use any PfU's but just deposited the Skelis in a corner with invisibility potion. BG1 done with level 6/6/6, 94 hp and ** in Flail, * in Single-Weapon Style and *** in Two-Weapon Style. Don't expect much trouble in SoD, crusader attacks needing the most attention.

    1dqjh2o7yxgc.png
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    PfU to Korlasz, and she surrendered after 6 WoF Invisibility combos. Blood Raged and Hasted skelis blasted through the undead in chapter 8. Also used Blood Raged Skelis to kill some Undead for a level up. Ziatar burned, Akanna charmed, Bridge Mage interrupted with Ring of Energy and Skelis wiped the rest. Made to max level of 8/9/8 getting to allied camp, 118 hp and 5th level mage spells. Before attacking the Lich in Kanaglym, skelis and PfU killed the undead above so they wouldn't intervene. After that buffed skelis easily handled the Lich.

    0n5ynj4hd38k.png
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    Troll wave, 24 Skull Traps, and Skelis handled the rest. Mage wave, 5 Skull Traps, 3 Webs, Greater Malison + Silence + Web sequencer and Skelis handled the rest. Paladin wave, 5 Skull Traps, 3 Webs, 7 Cloudkills, Greater Malison + Silence + Web sequencer, more Webs, Cloudkills and Silences. Final wave, buffed skelis, GM + Silence + Web sequencers, Detect Illusion and more Silences, and eventually named ones succumbed to my summons and allies.

    yo0g665nti83.png
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    Ashatiel easily killed, and Trix tricked. Timed my arrive for Belhifet so that I had -26 Thac0 and 4 apr Martyr's Morningstar and Blazing Glory. Enchanted Weapon, Improved Invisibility, Blur sequencer. Escaped the Dispel, and hit Bel with Strength + Strength sequencer to lower his Thac0. They fight lasted 15 rounds or so, and used the goblet only once.

    i997timbjhsb.png
    adqir9jpoknc.png

    SoA is my favorite part of this challenge, as the game again opens up.

    HarpagornissemiticgodGrond0monico
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    Slay Living ignores Magic resistance.
    It does, but it only helps a Necromancer/Cleric or clerics operating without the LoB save fix, since Belhifet's save vs. spell is 0 in LoB mode, ensuring a successful saving throw. Curse, Chant, Prayer, and/or Recitation are necessary to give regular clerics a chance to get a failed saving throw out of Belhifet, but all of those spells can fail to bypass magic resistance.

    Be careful in BG2, @Harpagornis. I'm a little concerned about the Avenger. Impervious Sanctity of Mind grants a Spell Shield effect and Entropy Shield blocks Remove Magic and Breach, but enemy mages can and will break down those defenses if given enough time.

    histamiiniStummvonBordwehrVictor_Creed_SFVHarpagornis
  • Victor_Creed_SFVVictor_Creed_SFV Member Posts: 582
    semiticgod wrote: »
    Slay Living ignores Magic resistance.
    It does, but it only helps a Necromancer/Cleric or clerics operating without the LoB save fix, since Belhifet's save vs. spell is 0 in LoB mode, ensuring a successful saving throw. Curse, Chant, Prayer, and/or Recitation are necessary to give regular clerics a chance to get a failed saving throw out of Belhifet, but all of those spells can fail to bypass magic resistance.

    Be careful in BG2, @Harpagornis. I'm a little concerned about the Avenger. Impervious Sanctity of Mind grants a Spell Shield effect and Entropy Shield blocks Remove Magic and Breach, but enemy mages can and will break down those defenses if given enough time.

    Oh I misread that, sorry. :neutral:
    Afaik scrolls can't be interrupted, so if there's scrolls for those spells in SoD one could cast them more than once if it fails to MR.
    Main problem would be getting the actual Slay living of without getting interrupted, maybe invis potion would help?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    @Victor_Creed_SFV: No scrolls are available for IWD priest spells in SoD; just the IWD mage spells.

    We're talking about a poverty run, so a Potion of Invisibility wouldn't be an option. That would help with some things in a normal run, but it wouldn't actually help with Slay Living. A Harm spell is slow to cast, but Slay Living has a casting time of 1, so it's unlikely to get disrupted.

    StummvonBordwehrVictor_Creed_SFV
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    Loreth reached Level 21 picking up following HLA´s so far:

    Level 15: Deva
    Level 16: Elemental Swarm
    Level 17: Greater Elemental Swarm
    Level 18: Energy Blades
    Level 19: Fire Elemental Token
    Level 20: Earth Elemental Token
    Level 21: Globe of Blades

    With Elemental and Greater Elemental Swarm plus lots of new spell slots the Gauths are now dying so fast that going for another level is more or less like a walk in the park.

    Regarding the Mages @semiticgod we are not worried "that much" - for now. We will either use summons or - if possible - just avoid them. The good thing of poverty runs is that we can skip lots of dangerous places focusing mostly on the main quest once we got the gold for the Shadow Thieves.

    histamiiniGrond0semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    edited June 10
    Balthazar could be absolutely instrumental in winning the fight at the Throne of Bhaal. He's a persistent ally who gets LoB bonuses, and the save bonuses will make him immune to the Fallen Solars' vorpal strikes. He might be worth some Heal spells.

    The Fallen Solars can cast Imprisonment on him, though... and I'm not sure his Lunar Stance or whatever grants him immunity to that is truly reliable. I don't know under what circumstances he activates that ability, and the Fallen Solars only need one round to land that spell.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    @semiticgod I've never got far enough to use Balthazar, but I thought he was immune to timestop - is that immunity only through a temporary ability then?

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    @Grond0: Lunar Stance. I think it only lasts 5 rounds, and I believe it's mutually exclusive with other special abilities. It grants immunity to both Time Stop and Imprisonment.

    Grond0HarpagornisStummvonBordwehr
  • billy_pilgrimbilly_pilgrim Member Posts: 115
    Hey guys, I've been lurking again. Feeling that old tingle, especially with SCS v32, looks pretty interesting, and definitely gives me hope for my 15 priest of lathander-> thief build. I won't be doing anything fancy though, I don't know enough to even think about a poverty run.

    I've also always wanted to do a solo monk, because I'm a little lame like that and I think monks are cool. Unfortunately I see no way in how they could beat belhifet, anyone have any idea's for that?

    When I last stopped playing I got my shadow dancer past belhifet, I think it'd be possible on a nR with high enough stealth, fully buffed up and using the cleanse aura insta hide you can basically melee him down, critically failing a hips roll though might end poorly.

    HarpagornisStummvonBordwehrhistamiini
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    edited June 11
    A Shadow Dancer will have a hard time against Big B in 2.5 as you will only have a hit chance of 15% (20% for Elfes) so you will not only fight against his regeneration but also against an increasing number of demons while also keeping up all buffs and avoiding the evershooting Erinyes whenever possible. There are so many things that can go wrong that i more or less would prefer my poverty Avenger over a Shadow Dancer for this one @billy_pilgrim. Single class Thieves are no fun in Avernus... :D

    Thac0 calculation for Shadowdancer

    15 Base (Level 12)
    12 Potion of Power (40 rounds)
    5 Violet Potion
    4 Legacy of Masters
    3 Chant
    2 Luck
    1 Bless
    -2 Longsword +3
    -6 Invisibility

    Thac0 -6 vs Big B´s AC of -24 (with Improved Invisibility) = 15% chance to hit

    StummvonBordwehrhistamiinisemiticgod
  • billy_pilgrimbilly_pilgrim Member Posts: 115
    A Shadow Dancer will have a hard time against Big B in 2.5 as you will only have a hit chance of 15% (20% for Elfes) so you will not only fight against his regeneration but also against an increasing number of demons while also keeping up all buffs and avoiding the evershooting Erinyes whenever possible. There are so many things that can go wrong that i more or less would prefer my poverty Avenger over a Shadow Dancer for this one @billy_pilgrim. Single class Thieves are no fun in Avernus... :D

    Thac0 calculation for Shadowdancer

    15 Base (Level 12)
    12 Potion of Power (40 rounds)
    5 Violet Potion
    4 Legacy of Masters
    3 Chant
    2 Luck
    1 Bless
    -2 Longsword +3
    -6 Invisibility

    Thac0 -6 vs Big B´s AC of -24 (with Improved Invisibility) = 15% chance to hit

    @Harpagornis Oh dear, so he regens now as well? I do recall it taking a couple of hours for me to kill him but he definitely didn't regen. I guess single class Priest of Lathander would also have trouble with him, apart from Avengers, what single class options do you think would still be viable(non-poverty)? Would your old barbarian still work? I do prefer fighty backstabby characters personally. Gonna stop with shadowdancer now :tongue:

    histamiiniHarpagornis
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    How much did Arrows of Detonation do damage against Bel, when Hamatulas were targeted? There's 97 of them in the game, so could do nice damage before hit&run tactic. Of course Thief would have to pass Crusader Attacks saving them.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    edited June 11
    Hey guys, I've been lurking again. Feeling that old tingle, especially with SCS v32, looks pretty interesting, and definitely gives me hope for my 15 priest of lathander-> thief build. I won't be doing anything fancy though, I don't know enough to even think about a poverty run.

    I've also always wanted to do a solo monk, because I'm a little lame like that and I think monks are cool. Unfortunately I see no way in how they could beat belhifet, anyone have any idea's for that?

    @billy_pilgrim I agree monks are cool and you shouldn't be put off trying one. Unless you did decide to try a poverty run a monk should be one of the easier classes to get past Belhifet (though there's a lot of stuff required to get that far of course). Monks are able to use all the martial potions - so can hugely increase HPs with potions of heroism as well as potions of power. They can also use priest scrolls, so you can use enough Champion's Strength scrolls to hit Belhifet with a 2. You can't protect against the fatigue effect of using restoration scrolls, but unless you're sad like me you can use Durlag's Goblet to heal damage. Even though you can't use oils of speed I don't think it should be too difficult to survive while you wear down Big B.

    billy_pilgrimStummvonBordwehrHarpagornis
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    histamiini wrote: »
    How much did Arrows of Detonation do damage against Bel, when Hamatulas were targeted? There's 97 of them in the game, so could do nice damage before hit&run tactic. Of course Thief would have to pass Crusader Attacks saving them.

    Have you got a list of those locations @histamiini - I would have thought there were a few more than 97. Of the top of my head I think you can get them from:
    - Sorcerous Sundries (BG & SoD)
    - Undercity Party
    - Angelo
    - quartermaster
    - thief in coalition camp
    - container in Underground River warrens

    StummvonBordwehr
  • billy_pilgrimbilly_pilgrim Member Posts: 115
    @Grond0 Hmm, well I'll give it a go. The problem afaik is that monks will only be able to hit him with a weapon, and with thief thac0 and only single weapon style available it might prove too difficult to wear down his hp. But - there's only one way to find out, rolling a monk!

  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    @Grond0 From memory

    97 Arrows of Detonation

    60 Sorcerous Sundries BG1
    25 Sorcerous Sundries SoD
    5 Waizahb
    3 Dragonspear Basement
    2 Rahvin
    2 Durlag's Tower Warder Level

    Does Angelo really drop those?

    Grond0semiticgodStummvonBordwehrHarpagornis
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    histamiini wrote: »
    Does Angelo really drop those?

    I seem to remember Angelo having 10 - though it's possible I'm thinking of the unmodded game rather than the SCS battle.

  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    @Grond0 Must be unmodded game, because I've not seen him drop those. NearInfinity show's that he has 8 of those, but it's "retard" Angelo, not the SCS version. :D

    Grond0
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    @Grond0 Hmm, well I'll give it a go. The problem afaik is that monks will only be able to hit him with a weapon, and with thief thac0 and only single weapon style available it might prove too difficult to wear down his hp. But - there's only one way to find out, rolling a monk!

    I've never done the battle, so I may be wrong ;). However, don't forget that monks can dual-wield. There should be enough Champion's Strength scrolls to overcome those penalties and attack at 5/2 APR.

    histamiiniHarpagornis
  • histamiinihistamiini Member Posts: 1,233
    edited June 11
    Wait what, Monks can use Priest Scrolls? For all this time I've thought they can't and that's why I've never touched them. All because wiki is so badly worded. :s

    "Monks are priests who are specialized in barehanded fighting, originally they can use cleric scrolls as well as many mage wands, including Wand of Cloudkill, which have been disabled in Enhanced Editions."

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehrHarpagornis
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,309
    That does seem badly worded! They can no longer use mage wands, but the wand of heavens can be useful to monks ...

    Monks are a bit like bards. They can do a lot of things, though generally none of them as well as more specialist classes. Arguably I think they should be able to benefit from high constitution like warrior classes, but the combination of warrior potions, clerical equipment and thief stealth - and of course their stunning blows - makes for a decent package.

    StummvonBordwehrHarpagornishistamiini
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,512
    Note that single-classed thieves can also wear Simonetta's amulet for another +2 to THAC0. That's -8 THAC0 total, for a 25% hit rate. But when factoring in Belhifet's regeneration and resistances and a thief's 1 APR if you're remaining invisible at all times, that's only 3.35 net damage per round. It would take about 350 rounds to kill Belhifet for a single-classed thief.

    StummvonBordwehrhistamiini
  • HarpagornisHarpagornis Member Posts: 1,496
    edited June 11
    The Medal of Valor would replace Lons Amulet so its only another +1 Thac0 which means 25% hit chance for Elfs and 20% chance for the rest @semiticgod. You most likely will have to spend "several" Arrows of Detonation during the Crusader Attacks and - never forget that one - you will need to wait for "quite a bit" during the Siege on Dragonspear wasting another 20+ Arrows of Detonation to collect enough Potions of Power afterwards to keep the buff active all the time. As i said before: Single Class Thieves have a hard time in SoD even though Swashbucklers with decent preparation and clean execution of hit & run should be able to beat Big B - at least our test fights have shown that its possible. But it will take "some time". :D

    @histamiini: I think you are the right one for an awesome nR Monk run - no? ;)

    StummvonBordwehrhistamiini
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