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Lower Reaches - Fireball fails to destroy 6 gibberlings

arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
why would a fireball from a wand of fire fail to destroy utterly a group of 6 gibberlings in the Lower Reaches below the Cult of the Unseeing Eye as part of the retrieval of the first half of the rod.?

lettuce go back to Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (original; sold 100,000+ copies) and either:
A. leave it there
or
B. call the original coding team to make any upgrades or improvements "if necessary" because

"if there's a problem with a fireball and 6 gibberlings, there are 1000 other problems"

a Fireball does 6d6 pts of damage

the lowly gibberling only has 8 hp

"2 out of 6 gibberlings were still alive with 1hp or something"

the game is unplayable.

update

apparently, 4 of them were mutated gibberlings at 16hp
low and behold 2 of them rolled crit 20 and made save vs. wand for 1/2 dmg
with their lowly saving throw value of 16 save vs. wands
I think you need to roll 17 or higher to make the saving throw rolling a d20
"it's a gibberling. it's not going to make the saving throw."

record

Mutated Gibberling: takes 23 fire damage
Mutated Gibberling: Death.
Gibberling: takes 19 fire damage fr
Gibberling: Death.
Gibberling: takes 29 fire damage fr
Gibberling: Death.
Mutated Gibberling: takes 26 fire damage fr
Mutated Gibberling: Death.
Mutated Gibberling: Save vs. Wand: 20
Mutated Gibberling: takes 15 fire damage fr
Mutated Gibberling: Save vs. Wand: 20
Mutated Gibberling: takes 13 fire damage fr
The Party has gained experience: 15
The Party has gained experience: 35
The Party has gained experience: 35
The Party has gained experience: 15

remaining Mutated Gibberling: takes 8 missile damage fr
Mutated Gibberling: Death.
The Party has gained experience: 15

remaining Mutated Gibberling: takes 3 missile damage fr
Mutated Gibberling: Death.
The Party has gained experience: 15

PS
Do You Know What a DUNGEON MASTER Looks Like.?


Post edited by arthur05 on
«13

Comments

  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,242
    edited June 18
    As far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with the Enhanced Edition. Mutated Gibberlings had the same HP and saving throws in both BG2:EE and the original BG2.

    Mutated Gibberlings, although still weak, are tougher than the gibberlings we're used to from Baldur's Gate 1. They have 16 Hit Points.

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisov
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    one staggering away I would have blew it off

    2(two) staggering away I began to analyze it

    the math was Wrong and,

    the question of the DUNGEON MASTER has occurred as well

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    maybe, might, possibly, not eventually

  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 20
    I think a computer is not yet that good at rolling a (die)dice

    they don't understand it

    something as simple as roll 1 x d20

    if you take a [physical] d20 and cast 1 roll that is acceptable or agreed upon

    "the program does not include physics or series"

    here is the operation
    the computer program has to roll a d20 and "has to do the exact same thing as the real thing" and this is open to debate because "God doesn't play dice"

    then the math is right, the program is correct

    1. everybody here will agree on the number that comes up when we roll a physical die 20

    a. seemingly it could be any number from 1 - 20, 5% chance each

    b. there is a "balance of probabilities" there in a (series) of a group of numbers though
    start at 10 left or right, the extremes are unlikely
    I'll go 60% median with you

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • BrightL1ghtsBrightL1ghts Member Posts: 44
    pardon, eng is not native.
    Anyway, your example is not something unbelievable, and absolutely could happen. Not a programmer, but i think before blaming them, you would need to do at least 1000 fireballs at the same gibberling rave party in order to say something about pseudo-random in this game.

    ThacoBellArviaspacejaws
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    inductive reasoning here informs us 1 such encounter tells you about 1000 such encounters

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    2 more trials and each time both only 1 mutated gibberling staggered away making it's saving throw vs wand

    "also it would appear the computer allows a save on or above the saving throw of 16 for the gibberling in this instance here"

    I could swear with a save vs wands of 16 you have to roll a 17 or greater
    there must be a brief argument here then between D&D rules and let us say W&W rules

    well 6d6 is 36, Theoretical Maximum
    even the mutated gibberling at 16 hp is (less than half of that), thus the group is wiped out in the first
    as for making saving throws the gibberling has a save vs wands of 16 as we've already mentioned. 1 roll of a d20 with a median of 60% spread starting from 10 puts your greatest roll at 16 and your lowest roll at 4 on average, a slight majority of the time, which means not a single gibberling made their saving throw.

    that's a good point about the fireball scroll being 10d6 and the upcoming tip on the invoker is a good one but,
    a group of gibberlings are the least impressive group of enemies in all of Baldur's Gate or 2

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 4,742
    arthur05 wrote: »
    2 more trials and each time both only 1 mutated gibberling staggered away making it's saving throw vs wand

    "also it would appear the computer allows a save on or above the saving throw of 16 for the gibberling in this instance here"

    I could swear with a save vs wands of 16 you have to roll a 17 or greater

    No, 16 is the roll required to 'make' the save. There are a few modifiers though. I'm pretty sure the -2 saving throw penalty for an invoker applies to the save even though it's from a wand (also the +2 bonus to the save would apply if it was used on an invoker). Any bonus to fire damage would also be added (ie: +10% to fire damage from Robe of Red Flames).

    ThacoBellStummvonBordwehr
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    4th trial and 1 fireball destroyed all 6 gibberlings
    4 mutated gibberlings and
    2 lowly gibberlings

    wouldn't you say the balance of probabilities favoured this outcome to begin with or not.?
    (and the 1st encounter is most important, not the 4th encounter or trial afterall)

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,315
    @arthur05 You don't have a large enough sample size. To be able to make a statement like that, you would needs to do thousands of tests to have anything resmbling an accurate trend.

    elminsterStummvonBordwehrArvia
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 20
    edit

    "a Mutated Gibberling does not have 16 hp" "It has 14 hp"

    DUNGEON MASTER

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,938
    edited June 19
    Mutated Gibberlings have 16 hp. So a fireball that does an average of 21 damage actually could quite conceivably fail to kill them if they make their save (and even if they don't on a bad damage roll)
    I could swear with a save vs wands of 16 you have to roll a 17 or greater
    (From the Adventurer's Guide)

    "Saving Throws
    Saving Throws are a character’s resistance to special types of attacks—poisons, magic, and attacks affecting the whole body or mind of the character. A character’s Saving Throw value behaves in much the same way as THAC0; when a character makes a Saving Throw, their d20 roll must meet or exceed their Saving Throw score for the effect being resisted...."

    Comparing to what the PHB says for 2E

    "Rolling Saving Throws
    To make a saving throw, a player rolls a 20-sided die (1d20). The result must be equal to or greater than the character's saving throw number. "

    Post edited by elminster on
    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisovThacoBellleeux
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,175
    arthur05 wrote: »
    4th trial and 1 fireball destroyed all 6 gibberlings
    4 mutated gibberlings and
    2 lowly gibberlings

    wouldn't you say the balance of probabilities favoured this outcome to begin with or not.?
    (and the 1st encounter is most important, not the 4th encounter or trial)

    With a low sample size, the balance of probabilities is meaningless. Probability only tells you what kind of trend you can expect if you do something lots and lots of times.

    If you like sharp math, clean rules, a clear dungeon master, and solid application of the D&D rules, then you embrace dice rolls that go unexpectedly.

    If you don't like those things, then you'll love BG3. :lol: Heyo!

    StummvonBordwehrThacoBellLudwig_II
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 936
    To be honest, I am not quite clear what the point here is. Is it one of the following? And if so, which?
    • Baldur's Gate did not implement AD&D properly
    • The enhanced edition broke the AD&D implementation
    • The random number generator used sucks

  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    edit

    it's very difficult to translate a physical die roll into a computer program

    though at this point I almost prefer the computer programs roll of d20 to the roll of the physical d20, Theoretically




    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 20
    the point here is your basic encounter between a 6d6 wand of fire and a group of 6 gibberlings

    1. 16hp is less than half of 6d6 36 thus the group was wiped out in the first
    the first point is or appears to be on the "balance of probabilities" or proportions

    2. the second point has to do with saving throws, the computer program for a d20 roll and, the dividing line

    "if you paint a picture 1000 times it's going to look very similar most of the time (especially during the 1st(First) encounter)" and,

    what is that similar picture.? all 6 died and not even 1 made their "saving throw",

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,447
    edited June 19
    @arthur05 In an earlier comment you said "well 6d6 is 36". You do realise that 6d6 means that one 6 sided die is rolled six separate times, giving a total result of anywhere between 6 and 36?

    StummvonBordwehr
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    sometimes the gibberlings are there, sometimes they aren't

    they will appear if you reload

    probably depends upon the level of your group, it's possibly scaled or something

  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    the maximum possible is a Theoretical figure in use

    the minimum may also be another consideration

    6 x 1's = 6

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 936
    edited June 19
    I don't say this to be harsh, but your posts are almost impossible to follow understand. Have you tried writing them first and then to read them again, to see if you would understand them?

    For example, here are my thoughts when trying to make sense of the above post.
    arthur05 wrote: »
    when you're holding a die 20 in your hand before rolling it on the table, there are 19 possibilities
    Why 19? It is a d20.
    once the die lands and settles there are 20 possibilities
    Why are there possibilities left if it has settled? And why has the number increased by one?
    I'll go just shy of 10.5 with you
    Yes, that is the median, but otherwise why? And go with it for what?
    because we will start and end the median roll from a whole number
    Why is this sentence here?

    dunbarThacoBell
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 20
    even my modest sample size of four(4) paints the picture of d20 rolls and the math engine in use in BG2:EE, 25% of the time in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th trial or instance

    25% of the time 2 staggered away

    25% of the time 0 staggered away

    50% of the time or, most of the time, 1 staggered away

    "however you may or may not notice that it's backwards because 2 staggered away in the important 1st(first) encounter and 0 staggered away in the last encounter"

    Post edited by arthur05 on
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    edited June 19
    let's say I perform 12 more trials here for a total of 16 trials to compare

  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 936
    edited June 19
    This thread reminds of me of some mechanics discussions which were discussed on the forum, where I do not recall the exact result & I do not have BG installed to test.

    @Grond0

    Maybe you can help with your knowledge.
    1. Does each character affected by a fireball spells rolls his saves and damage roll independently, or is there one roll for all characters?
    2. If you save against a 6d6 fireball spell, do you take 3d6 damage or 0.5 * 6d6? It affects the variance of the damage, even if the mean is the same.

    EDIT: from the logs above I guess the roles are probably separate most of the time, but does it depend on whether enemies are hit at the same exact time, as with spells in sequencers?

    Post edited by Ammar on
    gorgonzola
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
  • arthur05arthur05 Member Posts: 28
    here are the results for 12 more trials:

    5th trial or instance: 0 staggered away
    6th: 0 staggered away
    7th: 1 staggered away
    8th: 2 staggered away
    9th: 3 staggered away
    10th: 0 staggered away
    11th: 1 staggered away
    12th: 1 staggered away
    13th: 1 staggered away
    14th: 1 staggered away
    15th: 0 staggered away
    16th: 1 staggered away

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