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Is charname really able to beat the boss in watcher's keep? (Spoiler)

Or was this added just to appeal the player per se?

Because I don't really understand how a bhaalspawn, no matter how powerful, can actually beat the prince of demons..
[Deleted User]
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  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    Well I know I've never been able to do it . . .
    Balrog99leeuxAerakar
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    How ruthless! It's only the right thing to do granting that perfectly handsome gentleman his well earned freedom. Paladins be damned.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    It gives your Cavalier something to do between saving Suldanessalar and the Melissan final battle...
    Permidion_Stark[Deleted User]
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    edited October 2019
    It is possible ina pc-game , but I don't see it happening in a novel because (a) Demogorgon would be stronger and smarter and (b) Charname can't reload a game in "real" life.

    Same thing with NWN Klauth , if he's anything like the books suggest a 13th level character and his henchman can't possibily have killed him.
    [Deleted User]Daevelon
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited October 2022
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
    DJKajuruKamigoroshi
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    edited October 2019
    Not to mention that we're not even sure if this is the TRUE Demogorgon, or if it's just an aspect/avatar of him. Much like deities, uber-powerful outsiders like demon princes or archdevils can also have avatars containing a significant part of their power/essence, but imprisoning/slaying one doesn't necessarily mean that you've destroyed the outsider in question. (If I recall correctly, Orcus, Graz'zt and Zuggtmoy have all undergone similar experiences in various adventure modules.)
    [Deleted User]Daevelon
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    Hm. I didn't find the unmodded Demogorgon too difficult, once I realized that he resummons those nasty mariliths, and stopped focusing on them. With Charname a paladin kit (Undead Hunter or lately Cavalier), Keldorn, Anomen, Jaheira, Imoen and Nalia, I distinctly remember not needing a reload last time. However, I always do only the first two levels of Watcher's Keep in SoA, and the rest in ToB, and I play only on Core Rules.
    I played with Ascension once, and the fight was horribly difficult and took several reloads. Not as much as the improved Abazigal, though. And I've never used SCS.

    Klauth in NWN was worse than the unmodded Demogorgon, in my opinion, especially if you don't use the baby dragon essence to weaken him.

    Aerakar
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    @Zaxares I mean, herald of Helm tells you its Demogorgon. Helm is a lot of things, but he isn't a liar.
    gorgonzola[Deleted User]Daevelon
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Zaxares I mean, herald of Helm tells you its Demogorgon. Helm is a lot of things, but he isn't a liar.

    A fair point, but even an avatar of Demogorgon IS still Demogorgon. ;) It's just not the FULL him.

    Oh, and back on the original topic, I remember way back when I was playing vanilla ToB all those years ago, the way I beat Demogorgon was to get a Wand of Cloudkill and then dump all of its charges on the center area while staying out of sight on the upper ledges. Demogorgon just stood in the poisonous vapors until he choked to death. XD (I think Demogorgon has immunity to poison damage now? So this tactic probably doesn't work anymore.)
    Daevelongorgonzolasarevok57
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    I never had problems in defeating the demon prince, somehow i find much harder the last seal enemies.
    Probably the party composition matter, like the play style, but once i even tanked him killing his ever spawning helpers to farm xp for RL hours. Hitting the xp cap with a couple of newly recruited and low level party members.

    Imo the plot outcome make clear that the imprisoned prince is the real one, but as a manifestation of himself in the prime material plane.
    Killing him you only send him back to his plane and sealing again his prison you keep him confined there. It is not clear to me if you avoid that he sends a new avatar in the plane, as one, sealed into the keep is already present, or if being imprisoned prevents him to be active also in his or other planes.
    Also i lack of a precise knowledge about what avatar mean in the fr lore, it is a very specific word that is used in a particular religion, but is used also in many game situations with different meanings and implications.

    Anyway i would say that charname can win a battle against the demon prince, actually quite easily with the right party and tactics.
    But charname can not really kill him, like he can not kill a deva, demon or elemental prince.

    So it seems to me that somehow demogorgon gated himself into the prime material plane more then sending an avatar. If avatar is the way gods was present in the material plane during the time of chaos. There if i am not wrong they could be really killed killing their manifestation in the plane.
    Daevelon
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    No, the Time of Troubles was different. In that case, Ao literally cast the gods out of the Outer Planes to walk the mortal world in physical form. This was how deities like Bhaal were able to be killed (ordinarily, killing Outsiders, including deities, outside of their home plane simply banishes them back) during the Time of Troubles.

    Given that back in 2nd Ed, the world of Greyhawk was the "default" D&D setting (the mega-popularity of the Forgotten Realms notwithstanding), I'm more inclined to think that the Demogorgon we face in Watcher's Keep was not the prime manifestation of the Prince of Demons, but it WAS a very powerful aspect of him. Killing him would have freed the power/energy contained in this aspect and released it back to the main manifestation back in the Abyss, which was why Helm was keen for the aspect to continue to be imprisoned, rather than destroyed.
    StummvonBordwehrDaevelonArviagorgonzola
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Helm always was a party pooper through and through. Which is precicely why I always felt it more morally correct to battle the Herald of Helm rather than the completely innocent Avatar of Demogorgon. He basically demonnapped him! Helm nay! Tanar'ri have feelings and human rights too!
    gorgonzola
  • AronAron Member Posts: 94
    I have been playing the Balur's Gate saga ever since the first release in 1998. But i have so far never visited Watchers Keep. Reading this makes me want to visit this place to see how my paladin do against this demon of power.

    Just want to do a quest or two in the sewers first. :)
    gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehrAerakarsarevok57
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Zaxares wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    @Zaxares I mean, herald of Helm tells you its Demogorgon. Helm is a lot of things, but he isn't a liar.

    A fair point, but even an avatar of Demogorgon IS still Demogorgon. ;) It's just not the FULL him.

    Oh, and back on the original topic, I remember way back when I was playing vanilla ToB all those years ago, the way I beat Demogorgon was to get a Wand of Cloudkill and then dump all of its charges on the center area while staying out of sight on the upper ledges. Demogorgon just stood in the poisonous vapors until he choked to death. XD (I think Demogorgon has immunity to poison damage now? So this tactic probably doesn't work anymore.)

    If its just an avatar, releasing it into the Abyss shouldn't be an issue then. As the actual Demogorgon would already be free and presumably, able to create other avatars. But the issue of killing him vs. keeping him locked up, is that it prevents someone else from summoning him, or from leaving the abyss. An avatar wouldn't come with that restrisction.
    DJKajuru
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,325
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    If its just an avatar, releasing it into the Abyss shouldn't be an issue then. As the actual Demogorgon would already be free and presumably, able to create other avatars. But the issue of killing him vs. keeping him locked up, is that it prevents someone else from summoning him, or from leaving the abyss. An avatar wouldn't come with that restrisction.

    I know, but it might have been an avatar with a considerable chunk of Demogorgon's power. If Helm can keep it locked up in Watcher's Keep, it would deprive the main Demogorgon who's still in the Abyss of that power, and hence hinder his plans. (For some background, creating an avatar actually requires the deity/outsider to split their essence into multiple forms, kinda like if you had a 20th level character, and decided to create a 5th level version of yourself to go and clean out some goblin caves while the main you, who's now just 15th level, continued on to fight some vampires in a crypt.)
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,075
    Arvia wrote: »
    Klauth in NWN was worse than the unmodded Demogorgon, in my opinion, especially if you don't use the baby dragon essence to weaken him.

    Klauth from the Neverwinter Nights 1 OC deserves a thread like this even more than Demogorgon. Klauth is described in the game as one of the oldest dragons in the world, perhaps older than a great wyrm (he sacrifices other dragons to extend his lifespan). Yet my level 8 fighter/7 weapon master character was able to beat Klauth from full health without a henchman.
    Aerakarsarevok57
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Zaxares wrote: »
    ThacoBell wrote: »
    If its just an avatar, releasing it into the Abyss shouldn't be an issue then. As the actual Demogorgon would already be free and presumably, able to create other avatars. But the issue of killing him vs. keeping him locked up, is that it prevents someone else from summoning him, or from leaving the abyss. An avatar wouldn't come with that restrisction.

    I know, but it might have been an avatar with a considerable chunk of Demogorgon's power. If Helm can keep it locked up in Watcher's Keep, it would deprive the main Demogorgon who's still in the Abyss of that power, and hence hinder his plans. (For some background, creating an avatar actually requires the deity/outsider to split their essence into multiple forms, kinda like if you had a 20th level character, and decided to create a 5th level version of yourself to go and clean out some goblin caves while the main you, who's now just 15th level, continued on to fight some vampires in a crypt.)

    Nothing in the game indicates that its just an avatar, while EVERYTHING in the game says its the real Demogorgon.
    DJKajurusarevok57
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    Isn't it 100 years until they can come back to the plane? Isn't that worth it?
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited October 2019
    lroumen wrote: »
    Isn't it 100 years until they can come back to the plane? Isn't that worth it?

    Unless you're an elf. After about the 10th time you put him down it would start to get real old...
    ThacoBell
  • ArviaArvia Member Posts: 2,101
    If you do Watcher's Keep in ToB, I don't consider it unrealistic to beat the Prince of Demons, if you're only a few steps away from being the potential new Lord of Murder.
    JuliusBorisovArtonaThacoBellAerakar
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Arvia wrote: »
    If you do Watcher's Keep in ToB, I don't consider it unrealistic to beat the Prince of Demons, if you're only a few steps away from being the potential new Lord of Murder.

    It's nothing personal, but I think that the "but you're a potential lord of murder" card has been pulled whenever someone wants to validate some sort of powergame, lack of balance or absurdness in the game.

    I do agree that a group of characters above level 20 can indeed face and possibly defeat Demogorgon because at such high levels you can do anything *period*, but I think that this discussion is actually quite positive to speculate how Watcher's Keep could have been written had they had more time and opportunity to do so.
    gorgonzolaDaevelon
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Maybe charname can be few steps from becoming a god, but i dont see how he is more powerful then his npc comrades.
    He got some very minor powers from being a spawn, and he did lost them to gain the slayer form, that is a suicidal and imo not so strond power. This in SoA.
    In ToB he has some more bonuses from the hell trials, but those dont make him some sort of demi god.
    Is the ToB boss, that by the way is not a spawn, that has the control of the ToB, that can adsorb the essence of the dead spawns and become powerful.
    Until charname win the last battle and takes control of the ToB he is a mere mortal with some minor bonuses and the ability to turn himself in something that kill him.
    DaevelonDJKajuru[Deleted User]sarevok57
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Balrog99 wrote: »
    Without Charname none of the other companions have access to 'Power Word-Reload', though. That's the real game changer! ;)

    For now. Edwin already's revealing the mysteries of Mouse Magic after all. :p
    Balrog99ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    lroumen wrote: »
    Isn't it 100 years until they can come back to the plane? Isn't that worth it?

    Not for the rest of the realms.
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 2,508
    But they can have avatars over multiple realms at the same time, right?
    Kamigoroshi
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