The Anonymous Cheese And Cheating Poll
GammaPhase
Member Posts: 27
I couldn't find a poll like this (recent or otherwise). I've seen a few similar but not one that cuts to the matter at hand. It's anonymous, so your secrets are safe. I'm genuinely curious, so let's find out. In order from most pure to least.
Edit: Can't seem to edit the poll. #1 should read...
"Paladin: I don't even reload unless CHARNAME dies, infidel!"
Edit: Can't seem to edit the poll. #1 should read...
"Paladin: I don't even reload unless CHARNAME dies, infidel!"
- The Anonymous Cheese And Cheating Poll39 votes
- Paladin: I don't even reload unless dies, infidel!17.95%
- Cleric: Power Word Reload. No cheese, mods, or cheating.10.26%
- Druid: Tweaks and mods are fine if they are properly cleansed and balanced.23.08%
- Thief: I won't edit save-files, but I will exploit any cheese I can find.10.26%
- Kensai/Mage: "Balanced" use of a save-file editor. Mods and cheese are a given.28.21%
- Ranger/Cleric: I cheat so much I don't even remember what vanilla is like.10.26%
Post edited by GammaPhase on
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Comments
What exactly does it mean for a mod to be "cleansed"? And what is "balanced"? Fighters and mages play in completely different leagues. Is there some balance there that I am not aware of?
Why are mods, cheats and cheese apparently treated as equivalent to each other? I find that weird. Cheats are part of the original game. They are "vanilla".
Mods like SCS or tactics are installed by some to update the enemy intelligence they the retarded original scripting to be cheesy. That is not the same as looking to raise the difficulty (which should be considered intentionally imbalancing the game, which is a no-no for your druids).
Your poll is also missing the difficulty level. For example I find Legacy of Bhaal to be extremely cheesy and imbalanced and stupid.
And you are apparently making no allowances for people who are forced into cheating/reloading because of running into game-breaking bugs.
I do not think that it is very easy to break these matters down to a single axis. Just off the top of my head, first is the "original intent vs personal experience" axis. The "rules vs convenience" axis. Then there is the question of how willing people are to explicitly cheat, and to what lengths of repetitive labor they will go to achieve the same effect "legally". Finally on the question of difficulty, I would phrase it as the "desire for a challenge vs frustration".
4 axes. So even if you give people just 2 extreme options for each, you will end up with 16 different answers.
"Nature could find a home here if it were properly cleansed and balanced."
You've got some wonderful points, but 16 different answers seems like quite a bit. I could have gone deep into analysis and made more clear distinctions but--this is a poll for RPG gamers, not a serious case study. It's meant to be fun and marginally meaningful.
Great post, though!
for non martial types, I reduce Strength to 17, and then cheat in a Strength manual so it's 18 instead of 18/00
I don't see the allure of starting back over at Candlekeep on loss of the PC, though. Yes, I know that technically PC should turn into powder, but that isn't much "fun", so I break out a deus ex machina to save the day.
I have no problem cheating for convenience. CTRL+J instead of sitting there for 2 minutes watching people move. CTRL+T to go to nighttime for a quest instead of finding a place to rest and walking back. That sort of thing.
I have my own rules for behavior and "cheese". I don't use summons. I don't use traps. I don't use certain interactions like Mislead + backtab. I don't hide out of sight to let enemy buffs or summons expire. I don't use zone transitions to jump back and forth and cancel enemy spells. And so on.
I play with a CHARNAME rolling 90, and everyone else rolling 80, with a manually edited setup of classes and min/maxed stats. I don't mix RP and gameplay if I can avoid it, but I use the game's NPCs rather than custom ones because I enjoy banters and romances.
I've never felt that there is a need for policing in a game like this, except for my own enjoyment. I discover how I like playing, and roll with that. It's been working for well over a decade now.
I agree but for two things, I don’t see summons or normal thief traps as cheese. Admittedly Gord the Rogue was probably the quintessential thief and didn’t trap a ton and every thief I have ever run was more about disarming then setting but it was a part of the class then and not broken. Never heard of a DM that would let you get away with setting 7 traps around a red dragon that knew you were there and get away with it. Normal traps are not extreme however and not broken so not really in agreement there. I do agree that HLA traps are well beyond broken and I personally never take more than one of each. Summons are an intrinsic part of some classes and I can’t see the harm there. Okay, Elemental Princes and Planetars are pretty incredible but really can they beat the game in and of themselves? I don’t see it, but even if they were there are many summons that are not in any way overpowered. Personal guidelines I understand but, mostly for Druid summons, meh not a big deal from what I can tell. Certainly not game breaking are they?
@Lord_Tansheron Thanks for sharing that, I wasn't aware of these shortcuts. We share a similar philosophy to--I guess what I would call a gamer's code of conduct. Or something.
I'm curious why you don't boost the NPCs to 90 as well. Is that just to maintain the superiority of CHARNAME as the hero while everyone else is support staff? Something of that nature? 10 points is nothing to sneeze at.
Still, there are limits. What do I use that save-editor for? I use it for things like setting my protagonist's portrait (because I've got a giant portrait pack cluttering things up), or setting Imoen's kit to "Base Class" (to fix a bug), or continuity edits for companions in trilogy runs, or fixing a save so it doesn't crash the game. Sometimes I'll use it to set up dual-classing into a kit instead of away from it (my fighter-assassin run) or to alter proficiency choices for companions (Keldorn specialized in bastard swords instead of long swords, Anomen proficient in flails instead of staves).
Console commands? Those are mainly for fixing things - like when that runner from the keep doesn't show, or Dorn's summoning circle doesn't summon anyone.
Mods? Nothing too out there. The ones I use would fit at the "cleansed and balanced" level.
Cheese? There are limits; I'm not going to run the unlimited gold sell/steal loop. Still, things like werewolf Rasaad are intensely cheesy, and I'm fine with that.
On traps - with the mods I run (SCS), those dragons will see you setting traps as a hostile action. If you do that, they'll immediately go hostile and you won't be able to set more. That only allows for a few spots where you can play for maximum cheese, usually because the enemies don't spawn in until you trigger something. Laying traps for Samia's party, or in lich tombs, or for Irenicus on the Tree of Life, feels entirely appropriate.
As for summons, I find them too eminently abusable for my taste, mostly because I only play on LoB and the HP bonus (even in its diminished form) allows summons to be quite meaty. Things like Mordenkainen's Swords are ridiculous tanks already, and given how space is often a limiting factor, I don't want to do things like box in enemies with mass summons.
But as I said, this is personal - I like to play this way, and it's not meant as a definition of what's cheese or isn't. It's just what I do. Call it what you like, it's meant for me and me alone. It doesn't reflect my opinion on how other people play or what they do (insofar as I even have one on that).
Yes, basically that. It also helps with the few instances where you're fighting alone. I know I said I generally don't mix RP and power, but I guess I just like this one. My rules, I can break them whenever and however I want :P
I also like to do little ironic things from time to time, like give Aerie 5% slashing and fire resistance.
Wizard Slayer: “I can't have nice things, so you can't too.“
As well as the ...
Cleric/Thief: “O Lord, almighty Cheddar, deign to bless and sanctify this exploit, which Thou hast produced from the fat of coders, whom whoever of Thy faithful people encounter of it may be filled with every modded content and Thy grace, and may abound in swift restartitis. Through Goudar our Lord, bon appétit!
That's why I think that using mods and cheating doesn't belong in the same drawer.
I've started trying no-reload runs recently, and if I do a run with reloads, it's Charname death only. I do use mods occasionally, right now it's only to try new NPCs. I'm more of a roleplayer and don't like to use cheats and exploits.
As someone said above, I'm not comfortable with traps and summons, either.
I think developers that lock everything away so the unworthy cannot tamper with their pristine creations need to look to these games for enlightenment.
It grants longevity like nothing else. Someone more eloquent than myself has probably already said this in a better way, but there it is.
At the end of the day, I think players should just roll with whatever makes the game most fun for THEM.
But I finished the game enough times and I don't feel like I have anything to prove.
but other than that, i play clean games, no other cheats or exploits, and the only "mods" that i do are ones that i do myself, and usually its me modding some of beamdog's "fixes" like the 10 million save file shenanigans, holy jumpins is that annoying, really, there should be an option to turn that on or off
and then in bg2 i dont cheese at all, infact the reason why i usually end my runs in ToB is because on insane difficulty its virtually impossible to win against draconis or abizigal without some use of cheese because they are just scripted either to good or unfairly, and if you are going to make a fight hard and the only way to win is cheese, thats an easy pass for me
i remember way back in the day i tried the ascension mod, and it was dumb as hell at the abizigal part, holy crap was it as awful, the other bhaalspawn fights and demogorgon were all good, but that fight was just dumb as hell, so i never installed that mod again, and that is also the reason why i dont use SCS because i have fears that some fights are so hard that if you dont use cheese in some scenarios you just can't win
although, every once in awhile i will use EE keeper to make my avatars look cool ( like making my monks look like jon irenicus; who would have though his sprite actually has attack animations because he never uses them in game ) or if i don't feel like rolling for hours, i will just manually set character ability scores, usually STR will be 18/91-99 for warriors and the points around 88-92, depending on class type
through out the years that i've been playing these games i've used tons of mods and things, but every since the EEs came out, i just play clean games with no mods, to me mods really detract away from the game and i feel like im not even playing the same game anymore
i usually reload many times the same battle, even if it is won, as i am enough experienced to beat almost every battle, vanilla or tactics mod, without problems.
when i am not lazy, overconfident or other....
i reload because i love to test a party so i want to know how they can perform in a given situation, to test every side of their potential. so maybe i fight with magic only, then reload and fight with no magic, then only ranged, then i send each of my toons solo and on and over until i really discover all the potential of a certain party and all the synergies between the toons and their different perks and capabilities.
and i love also to try all the cheesy and exploiting strategies that i can find, my recipes or other people ones, up to clearing whole areas and dungeons spamming ADHW on everyone trough the spamming of wish spells while i keep reloading my own ones with the rest option i get from the same spells.
but i have to win each battle at least one time in a way that even the most uncompromising pally could not argue about in any way. the cheese for me is a way to have fun, not to win easy what i am not able to overcome without.
but as i am sometimes lazy or overconfident or other way stupid sometimes i reload for that simple reason, as i want to continue with that party until i have properly tested it.
i often play with mods. npc ones, quest mods and difficulty enhancing mods (mainly tactics), but i also sometimes use mods like items upgrade or Boards O' Magick item pack that make the game easier. i also use some tweak mods, in my original game mainly easy of use, or at least many of its components. trying to be fair with myself doing it, so if i play with unnerfed spell tables i use all them, even the druid one that underpowers druids.
but lately i enjoy also to play completely vanilla, for a far more relaxed experience.
i edit my save games, but i do it mainly to roll charname stats (usually i chose average or under the average ones) as it is faster then actually rolling in the game, and i don't have fun in pressing a "roll button".
i know that i could get quite high stats rolling enough time, but i don't see the precious RT spent to press a button on the game interface as well spent so i create my charname, save and edit the stats to the value i want instead.
i also edit the npcs, giving them different classes, but keeping their original stats, maybe slightly modified to make them legittimate, without particular minmaxing and keeping the original total score.
imoen bard or sorcerer, nalia fighter mage, valygar archer, minsc kitted fighter or korgan dwarwen defender seem to me a way to try different class combos while keeping the original banters and quests, i could do it with a custom party with even better stats and optimization, but i prefer to use the npcs i know and love, as long as i don't create nonsense like an aerie berseker or a valygar fighter mage.
also i have my personal things that i chose not to do, just like @Lord_Tansheron , even if mine are different from his ones. i consider summons and traps (thieves are the class i enjoy more to play) completely legittimate. and as i don't like LoB his problems with summons don't apply to my way of playing, even if i completely understand his point of view given that he play only that mode.
the things i don't do are mainly to use the scrolls that protect from magic and undeads and the anti beholder shield.
also i try to avoid at my best the use of metagame knowledge (pre buffing when there is not a clear clue that something is going to happen and so on) and tactics that give to me too easy, almost automatic victories or things like bombing enemies from the fog of war, set traps (that i other way love to use in a tactical way) on spawn points or near still blue enemies.
i sell and steal from shops and fences, but every item no more then once for each fence, as i RP that the fences don't have a so well working net and are not willing to admit that they had been fooled with their colleagues to maintain a certain reputation in the thieves community.
and i use sometimes some ways to get extra xp, but only if i feel that it is really earned. so not scribe and erase or ranged kills of fire giants from the saradush walls for me. but why not to turn to stone 5, 20 or even 100 times firkraag, as long as i do it without feeblemind him before, and to keep him alive at 1 hp and turn him to stone again and again is not so easy...
ok, if i plan to do it 100 times after the first 10 i feeblemind him as my RL time is too valuable and i have proved to myself that the party can do it at will.
so in most of my runs i push hard towards the RC side of the poll, but still i have to win each battle at least once with pure pally ethos.
this is why i don't know where to put my vote.
anyway i like the thread, even if i agree that the poll is somehow like to mix apples and oranges, i like it because it can give the insight on how other forum members policy their way to play the games.