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Any fans of Invokers?

leeowensoasleeowensoas Member Posts: 81
Anyone love playing Invokers in BGEE/BG2EE at least? I feel like when it comes to power discussions conjurer and gnome illusionist are always the specializations thrown around, and I hate to use the word underrated, but I feel like an Invoker is easily as good as a Conjurer (no beating those Shorty saves tho) if not better; with the caveat that you have a second arcane caster. Conjurers are great cause they give up so little, but their school saving throw penalty/boost doesn't do a whole lot of work except the symbol spells. Illusionists' main benefit is a supercharged spook, but not a whole lot else. Contrast an invoker, whose saving throw boosts are helping you survive fireballs and lightning bolts from start to finish, while making yours more consistently powerful (not to mention the disgusting sickness that is 2× -4 Web in a Minor Sequencer). Meanwhile the only really rough spells to give up are sleep (which has a slightly underwhelming substitute in the wand available straight out of candlekeep, and is nearly useless by BG2) and greater malison. Greater Malison is super rough to lose and almost a dealbreaker, but by the time SoA rolls around and you really start to need it, basically any other mage(single or multi) or bard can toss it out for you and it doesn't stack. I suppose I'm just ranting, but it just seems like a really cool and powerful class that I feel like maybe isn't on everyone's radar (possibly because they were trash in OG BG1 with 2 opposed schools?)

StummvonBordwehrgorgonzolaBlackravenAerakarJuliusBorisovmonico

Comments

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    i am not a big fan of specialist mages but multi class gnomes, and also here mainly for the 3rd lev 9 spell that they get end game.


    but if the specialist route is taken with a pure mage or a dual with mage as starting class invoker is a sound choice in EE as their spells become more powerful. at least if in the party there are a proper thief and/or secondary mage to take care of the lack of divination and some one that can conjure summons.

    leeowensoasAerakarBlackraven
  • leeowensoasleeowensoas Member Posts: 81
    edited February 2020
    smyth25 wrote: »
    The penalty also applies to the wand of fire, so you can still easily spam empowered fireballs and save your 3rd level slots for other spells.

    This I did not know! Is that true for other wands/sources of invocation spells? (Items/potions)

    And yeah I love Minsc, but in BG2 Dynaheir would have been a powerhouse
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    invoker is a sound choice in EE as their spells become more powerful. at least if in the party there are a proper thief and/or secondary mage to take care of the lack of divination and some one that can conjure summons.

    Invocation's only opposed school in the EEs is enchantment. They already get all the divination spells (it's conjurers who lose them) and only give up conjuration spells in OG BG1, was that what you're referring to here?

    Losgornsmyth25gorgonzola
  • leeowensoasleeowensoas Member Posts: 81
    edited February 2020
    @sarevok57 I definitely think when it comes to getting the most out of the saving throw bonus/penalty, Enchanters are #1. Really helps them land those sick save-and-nothing-happens-fail-and-you're-toast Enchantment spells. They're probably my second favorite mage specialization, arguably the best at BG1 levels where many of the spells they lose can be replicated by wands, and cool to dual out of for the saving throw boost alone. But at high levels I dunno how you live without sequencers and contingencies (unless you use SCS) which really limits my enjoyment of the class in BG2 content. That's half the fun of high level magery to me. Any advice? Or do you just make sequencers available to all mages (it sucks that elves' mage specializations give up familiars and sequencers respectively)

    Blackravenmonico
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,994
    (it sucks that elves' mage specializations give up familiars and sequencers respectively)

    You could always try a wild mage :p.

    ThacoBellmonico
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    I feel like I always stress about not finding enough of the key scrolls to fill out 3 mages spellbook at high levels, but I guess that's part of the fun haha
    i am pretty sure that you can find at least 3 scrolls for almost every spell in the game, even if for some of them you have to wait until tob.

    i often play very magic heavy little parties, 3 or 4 people, and when i have 4 people able to cast lev 9 spells there are only few spells that i have to choose which of my mages will have to live without.

    to be prepared to reload helps a lot in the task of getting high level scrolls as well as to get them a little earlier.
    to have 3 wish scrolls you have to gamble and win with aesgareth and win, so for a no reolader it is not granted to get them. (but if you do you can have 2 of them in soa chap 2 and as soon as your mages can cast lev 7 spells so PI each clone can cast 2 times from the quick slot, so potentially you have infinite rests for free, going to each battle with all the spells memorized and items charged...).
    for some of them like spell trigger you have to fight many times the CW reloading until you loot the right ones.
    but for wail of the banshee, time stop and many other key high level spells to reload until you find them is not needed, if i am not wrong at least 5 time stop scrolls are granted in the game, as not random loot or sold by merchants.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    when it comes to spell scrolls;
    in SoA;
    there is almost one copy of every single spell in the game just out in the "adventuring scene"
    the only ones that you won't find are;

    wraith form
    mass invisibility
    protection from cold
    remove curse
    greater malison
    shadow door
    power word silence

    every other spell, in the wild can either be found at a certain location or from random treasure drops

    now, for every spell up to level 8, there is at least x2 - x3 copies of every spell from venders through out the lands and underdark

    for level 9 there is one copy of each spell except;

    x0 imprisonment ( in the vanilla SoA it was in Sulden but when ToB was installed they got rid of that scroll )
    time stop, there is 4 copies
    wail of the banshee i believe has 2
    and in theory you there are "infinite" spell traps ( rare scroll drop from random treasure 5 )

    and then in ToB there is x2 copies of every spell in the game at aracana archives except as follows;

    wraith from x0 ( although the shop keep at watcher's keep has 3 copies i believe )
    wish x1 ( 2 more copies can be found in watcher's keep )

    so in theory, you could have 5 mages completely filled to the brim will at spells of up to level 8 at least by the time you hit ToB, but only 3 of them would have ALL the level 9 spells ( except for imprisonment in which only 2 would have it )

    gorgonzolaJuliusBorisovStummvonBordwehrAerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    and it is more then enough for almost every party, does not matter how magic heavy it is.

    as it is possible to have 3 high level mages (let's say jan, F->M and aerie), jaheira and haer dalis and a sorcerer (kelsey or tashia), that does not need scrolls to learn the spells, it is possible to have a party with both an incredibly high magic level (5 arcane casters, 4 of them with lev 9 spells and 2 divine casters, one druid and the other cleric, while retaining a good physical attack power as a F->M, a blade, jaheira and buffed aerie can hit hard while tanking for forever.
    with the luxury of having also a real thief, not only a door opener and 2 guys that can use hla traps.

    i don't think that more scrolls are needed in the game as most of the parties normally played are way less arcane magic heavy...

  • ithildurnewithildurnew Member Posts: 245
    edited February 2020
    iirc Spell Shield scrolls at least back in classic were often hard to find.

    Here's one way to ensure all/most of your arcane casters have the spells they need in their spellbooks (since there's ridiculous amounts of gold in this game, this can be abused to create large stockpiles of scrolls... exercising some restraint is recommended for game balance):

    http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_atweaks.html

    Allow Mages to scribe memorized spells onto scrolls
    This component grants all Mages (except Sorcerers) of 9th level and higher the ability to scribe spells from their spellbooks onto scrolls, as per PnP rules. Only spells that are currently memorized may be scribed in this manner. Furthermore, the cost of any raw materials that are used in the process must be covered in full. Finally, inscribing a scroll removes one instance of the spell in question from the caster's memory. This ability can be used at will, as long as the environment is non-hostile.

    StummvonBordwehrgorgonzola
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 312
    The 'Scribe Scroll' metamagic feat in 3.5, which every wizard gains automatically at creation, is indispensable. With so few slots at low levels it makes them actually effective. Well...that and light crossbow proficiency(with high DEX and rapid reload they're downright annoying).

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,811
    does rapid reload work with crossbows? don't you need to take another feat first to make it so it doesn't take a move action ( light ) or a full round action ( heavy ) to reload it?

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,905
    monico wrote: »
    Grond0 wrote: »
    (it sucks that elves' mage specializations give up familiars and sequencers respectively)

    You could always try a wild mage :p.

    * Evil Charname casts Find Familiar
    * wild surge: Oops, a gate!
    * Charname: "now THAT's a badass-looking Imp! I'll call you Archimedes !"
    * Nabassu: "..."
    * Charname: "........ Cookie, then ?"

    I mean you joke but this has happen more times than I care to emit with my wild mages.

    My MC actually have lunch plans with him this evening lol.

    monico
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 312
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    does rapid reload work with crossbows? don't you need to take another feat first to make it so it doesn't take a move action ( light ) or a full round action ( heavy ) to reload it?

    Rapid reload works only with crossbows. No prerequisites (per 3.5, idk and idc about 3.0). Reloading a heavy crossbow becomes a movement action. This means that it can be loaded and fired in the same round. For light and hand crossbows it is a free action. This allows these crossbows to be fired at the characters normal apr, like bows.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,295
    Heck yea I'm a fan. Especially in 5E where you can sculpt your fireballs so that they don't hit your party :)

    Hempz
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 312
    Yes yes. There's optional feats in 3.x that allow for changing energy damage and mixing different energy types as well as shaping. A fireball dealing cold and electrical damage with gaps where the party members are standing...fun fun fun.

    Hempz
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