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Two honest questions to those who put balance above everything else.

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  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 26
    [(...)If you believe the book of Nod, all the 2nd Gen were killed by the 3rd, with no mention of diablerie. So those are possible explanations why no more second or third gen vampires popped up. There's also a lot of people who think that generations didn't actually exist until Caine laid down the Curse on the third generation to make each generation weaker than the previous to attempt to prevent what the 3rd gen did to the 2nd from happening again(...)

    But it makes no sense. I mean, Caine is technically punishing the descendants of 3rd gen NOT the 3rd generation and making the higher generation morel likely to wanna diablerize the 3rd(like happened with many members of 3rd gen).

    What i particulaly don't like about the VtM metaplot is that they try really hard to mix a creature from slavic paganism with a monotheistic "desert religion" and it lead to heavy contradictions with VtR and Werewolf the Ascention, Kindred of the East, etc. Imagine if for eg, Pathfinder Kingmaker decided to do the same with Elves(based on Nordic paganism) and end up with then being some bizarre representation of Angels.

    As for blood potency of your sire, i agree that your sire should be important but should't be the unique thing who determines your capabilities. Pick the blood potency of your sire and round down with VtR system and you have a perfect solution. If your sire has a high blood potency, you start with greater powers BUT also greater risks, bloodthirsty and weaknesses and no experience on how to deal with the sun and other stuff.
    The fact that you dislike a mechanic doesn't mean it "doesn't make sense." It's fine to not like generation. It's not my favorite mechanic either, but to say it doesn't make sense because it doesn't do what you want it to do is not a compelling argument. It shows the curse has a starting point - Caine - and the farther removed from Caine a vampire is the weaker that vampire's potential.

    The """curse""" of getting powers that millions of people would die only to try get a fraction of your power makes no sense. The story of Adam and Eve itself makes no sense and the great flood too(a arc far smaller than titanic got animals from polar bears to penguins and supplies for months and everyone descend from a single family 4000 years ago). Note that other supernatural creatures doesn't have this mechanic. Why Kuei Jins are that different?

    That is the result of picking a slavic folklore creature and mixing with monotheistic dualistic religions...


    Anyway, we are going completely offtopic. I would love to discuss it in other topic but will avoid talking further about a specific mechanic(generation) here.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,093
    edited March 27
    You are ignoring that the """curse""" being getting godlike powers that millions of people would die only to try get a fraction of your power makes no sense. The story of Adam and Eve itself makes no sense and the great flood too. Ignoring that other supernatural creatures doesn't have this mechanic. Why Kuei Jins are that different?

    The fact that you do not understand something does not mean that it does not make sense. The fact that you dislike something doesn't mean that it does not make sense. You can just say you don't like something without misrepresenting what it is.

    Also, re-read my post - I didn't forget anything of the sort. I specifically suggested you read the Book of Nod for more context as to the curse and Caine's powers.

    Bringing Kindred of the East into this doesn't really illuminate anything. They're their own thing, not Cainites, and aren't relevant to this discussion.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    You are ignoring that the """curse""" being getting godlike powers that millions of people would die only to try get a fraction of your power makes no sense. The story of Adam and Eve itself makes no sense and the great flood too. Ignoring that other supernatural creatures doesn't have this mechanic. Why Kuei Jins are that different?

    The fact that you do not understand something does not mean that it does not make sense.

    Also, re-read my post - I didn't forget anything of the sort. I specifically suggested you read the Book of Nod for more context as to the curse and Caine's powers.

    Bringing Kindred of the East into this doesn't really illuminate anything. They're their own thing, not Cainites, and aren't relevant to this discussion.

    OMG. IS my last try. Will list everything who makes no sense with that story
    • Caine existing makes no sense in a world where mages can ascend, werewolves are pagan based and kindreds of the west based on eastern religions. You can't have 36516515 origins for your world. Or Christianity is right or Paganism is right or Eastern religions are right.
    • A curse being godlike superpowers makes no sense
    • The idea of the great flood makes no sense. For logistic point(too little time to prepare supply and gather animals and the arc is too small) and of view and biological point of view(fuegians, Eskimos, Astecs, Japaneses, Nordics, Zulus descending from a single family 4000 years ago)
    • The God(assuming that somehow vampires descends from Caine and Werewolves has a relationship with gaia in the same world) cursing only Caine with this amazing superpowers and never curing anyone else makes no sense
    • (...)
    • The story is so contradictory that when a Tremere(Telyavelic Tremere) worships a Pagan God, they are in fact worshiping a demon(Some Christians believe that Gods who exists before monotheism are demons) but when Werewolves does the same With Gaia, then they are Worshiping Gaia. The story needs to decide. Are Pagan Gods, Gods, Vampires(Set) or Demons??? You can pick a Greek deity like Thanatos and make it a demon in your would. I would prefer it he is a deity but is just my preference. When some times you claim that Thanatos is a demon, other times he is a God and other times he is a vampire, other times he is just a spirit(...) then your story is contradictory

    I can continue listing, but this is a off topic discussion. I would gladly to discuss WoD lore(not only generation) on other topic.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,093
    edited March 27
    OMG. IS my last try. Will list everything who makes no sense with that story
    • Caine existing makes no sense in a world where mages can ascend, werewolves are pagan based and kindreds of the west based on eastern religions. You can't have 36516515 origins for your world. Or Christianity is right or Paganism is right or Eastern religions are right.
    • A curse being godlike superpowers makes no sense
    • The idea of the great flood makes no sense. For logistic point(too little time to prepare supply and gather animals and the arc is too small) and of view and biological point of view(fuegians, Eskimos, Astecs, Japaneses, Nordics, Zulus descending from a single family 4000 years ago)
    • The God(assuming that somehow vampires descends from Caine and Werewolves has a relationship with gaia in the same world) cursing only Caine with this amazing superpowers and never curing anyone else makes no sense
    • (...)
    • The story is so contradictory that when a Tremere(Telyavelic Tremere) worships a Pagan God, they are in fact worshiping a demon(Some Christians believe that Gods who exists before monotheism are demons) but when Werewolves does the same With Gaia, then they are Worship Gaia. The story needs to decide. Are Pagan Gods, Gods, Vampires(Set) or Demons???

    I can continue listing, but this is a off topic discussion. I would gladly to discuss WoD lore(not only generation) on other topic.

    Like I said, not understanding something doesn't make it bad, dude. You're trying to invoke a lot of unrelated trivia to argue that this doesn't make sense, and you completely misunderstand how the world of darkness game line was developed and run.

    I also told you that the curse wasn't godlike superpowers and if you read the Book of Nod you'll see the course of events. That's assuming you even take the whole story of Caine and the curse and the Book of Nod as literal history and not mythologized to some extent.

    None of the game lines are written with crossovers in mind. If you're playing Vampire, most of Mage and Werewolf are completely irrelevant, and vice versa. If your Vampire games are about ascending mages or dealing with Gaia, you've messed up badly.

    Gish gallop all you want, dude, but Vampire makes sense within its own context including generation, and the fact that you hate that mechanic doesn't mean it's nonsense or bad.

    But what do I know? I've only been involved with White Wolf's World of Darkness since the first edition of Vampire was published.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    None of the game lines are written with crossovers in mind. If you're playing Vampire, most of Mage and Werewolf are completely irrelevant, and vice versa. If your Vampire games are about ascending mages or dealing with Gaia, you've messed up badly..

    You din't got my point. The vampire game contradicts with other games that are supposed to be set in the same universe. Imagine if on D&D, when you are playing as a vampire, elf sorcerers are descendants of Archangel Gabriel. If instead of being transformed into a vampire, you got transformed into a werewolf, they now have a completely different origin far more mysterious. If you become a human Wizard, then they are now spirits in evolution who has different proprieties than humans. It would't feel like Forgotten realms world. Would feel like separated worlds.

    I would't be a problem if they have kept the worlds separated. I would prefer if vampires was more slavic pagan like and less christian like but would be just my taste.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    Actually you can have 36516515 origins for the world, just look at Mage: The Ascension. The idea of Paradigms explains it all. Also a little understanding of how theology worked in the ancient world. Originally Yahweh was the God of that particular land. There were lots of Gods with different origins. Culturally once you had more wide spread monotheistic religions the paradigms began to fall to fewer viewpoints of the world. A lot of old gods died or became weaker, magical beasts rare or dying out completely. It's never exactly clear why vampires and werewolves were spared from this, perhaps in vampires case it's due to the curse coming from Yahweh, a deity the vast chunk of the world believes exists in some form.

    The deluge might be a metaphor or maybe a regional disaster that happened. In the real world some scientists and historians believe the flood myth (which also shows up in the epic of Gilgamesh), might be some long passed down story. There were a couple incidents more than 10,000 years ago that would have caused massive tidal waves to erupt all around the Mediterranean due to volcanic eruptions or when a mountain in Italy literally fell into the sea. Or maybe it just refers to a long period of rain that flooded the Tigris and Euphrates river basins. Or if you want to go the literal route, Yahweh destroyed most of his people, but being just a god of that region, his damage was isolated to there, which fits with Paradigms. I'm not as up on Demon: The Fallen, but it also has some references to this stuff, and clearly time gets really fuzzy there.

    Caine was one of Yahweh's people. The Garou were another's.

    Yes the story is contradictory. It's awesome that people aren't actually sure what the hell really happened. It makes for an interesting story with everyone sure their view of the world is right and fighting over it, kinda like the real world.

    BelleSorciereSorcererV1ct0rThacoBell
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,093
    Yes the story is contradictory. It's awesome that people aren't actually sure what the hell really happened. It makes for an interesting story with everyone sure their view of the world is right and fighting over it, kinda like the real world.

    Excellent post, and this is in fact the intention.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    Yep. You are right. The story is contradictory because is not set in stone. Each group see the world in one way. My preference for a more "pagan vampire" is just my preference...


    I love Gothic for example, but Water/Fire and Dark Mages see after life in a completely different way

    On Gothic 1, while the hero is taking the "Oath of Fire" or "Oath of Water", is mentioned that the souls goes to the realm of beliar. BUT on Gothic 2, Pyrokar mentions the sacred realm of Innos as a place to go after death

    7j5lgdpfwmh41.png?width=860&format=png&auto=webp&s=a37f235ccaae2bdd654247c4ce93a18659a3e9f7


    Myxir mentions the "spirit world"

    94xfhaolwmh41.png?width=868&format=png&auto=webp&s=f9db84f1120ba83b3e54641e9e3eebaa9fa4a187


    Saturas, who worships the same deity mentions the realm of the dead. And Quarhodron too.

    63s6adjvwmh41.png?width=880&format=png&auto=webp&s=78866e2245b91ac0c2c12f30010022f04d2fba19


    y4yvgv6swmh41.png?width=935&format=png&auto=webp&s=e5f6c1e2acef819e9fc844a1d37f17cf64ea6ab3


    Saturas Mentions the realm of Adanos


    1aps4479csh41.png?width=875&format=png&auto=webp&s=3be9a86bf38dbabda6875b917d9e64c9f48ced64


    Gothic 3 non canon ending spoiler below ->

    On Gothic 3, the summon skeleton says that "beliar demands servitude even in death" or something similar. Meaning that the guys who followed Bealir are in his domain and implying that non beliar followers doesn't need to worship and serve beliar after death. he din't mention the guy who "betrayed" him to be in his realm. Only Zuben.

    rvcscfvkymh41.png?width=1081&format=png&auto=webp&s=704ad628e0694d04fcb3372c07eb976c6588f0f8


    Does Innos take his chosen ones to his domain, Adanos to another realm under his domain and those who aren't chosen by any deity goes directly to Beliar's realm? That is the less contradictory way to put after life in Gothic universe.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,776
    I don't recall a golem in the game at all, was this the Gargoyle you're talking about? If so, from an in game perspective, that should work, it is just a vampire that has blood in it's body. Blood Boil's also a level 5 power, so it legitimately should be powerful.
    @DrHappyAngry
    No, it was definitely a stone golem, created and if you were a member of The Tremere clan you find out it was created by the very guy who recruits you into the haven.

    Also here is the thing, regardless of what level the spell is, much like blood Purge, the spell requires the target to have you know, blood. And this thing was 100% pure stone if memory serves. (I just skimmed the video to see if they actually show it, not sit and watch all 30 minutess?)

    So none of my spells shouldmt even effect it, in fact none of the other spells actually do effect it. That was a obvious oversight on their part but a fun lite exploit for me.




    If Blood Boil was just a little damage dealing skill on 5 minute cooldown, the game would be far more balanced. But will also be far worst. Will kill the fantasy of being mastered blood magic. Or if they have removed Tremere completely.
    ...no it wouldn't that wouldn't make the game more balanced, cooldowns and big damage numbers arent the only balancers used in games they are just the most common.

    It also wouldn't kill the fantasy of being master of blood magic since the game doesnt even dive into blood magic enough for you to run around with such a fantasy. And I played the game as a tremere using. Literally only blood boil and blood Purge to kill everything. And only using an axe or a gun when I ran out of blood.


  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    DragonKing wrote: »
    No, it was definitely a stone golem, created and if you were a member of The Tremere clan you find out it was created by the very guy who recruits you into the haven.

    Is a gargoyle


    DragonKing wrote: »
    It also wouldn't kill the fantasy of being master of blood magic since the game doesnt even dive into blood magic enough for you to run around with such a fantasy. And I played the game as a tremere using. Literally only blood boil and blood Purge to kill everything. And only using an axe or a gun when I ran out of blood.

    You can plat that way. But blood shield is amazing and blood salvo too. Also, domination allow you to make people suicide and in trance, so you can feed and don't need to use much your guns.



    Keep in mind that this game is not DA:O, you can't use blood magic in front of templars as if it is nothing. It is a masquarede break to use it in front of kine.

    The game has few spells BUT they are all useful and cool. Is like arcanum, you have 5 necromancer spells but can do a lot with the 5. You can speak with the dead to solve quests in a different way, deal resource efficient damage or a lot of damage at great cost, summon undead or reanimate corpses. On VtMB, you can throw a single blood projectile, make people vomit their blood, create a blood shield, throw a lot of projectiles and make people explode using their own blood.

    IMO this is extremely better than having 3 action bars fulfilled with powers and spending 99% of the time managing cooldowns and spamming the same rotation over and over to farm gear over and over. Sure, the ideal would be like Baldur's Gate where you have a lot of spells and they are more unique if you could have different paths and unique quests to get each path. So, lure of flames, path of conjuration(with scripted object list like BG implemented wish), would make the game have a lot of quality and quantity.

    Quality & quantity(bg) > Quality(vtmb/arcanum) > only quantity(wow).

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    DragonKing wrote: »
    I don't recall a golem in the game at all, was this the Gargoyle you're talking about? If so, from an in game perspective, that should work, it is just a vampire that has blood in it's body. Blood Boil's also a level 5 power, so it legitimately should be powerful.
    @DrHappyAngry
    No, it was definitely a stone golem, created and if you were a member of The Tremere clan you find out it was created by the very guy who recruits you into the haven.

    Also here is the thing, regardless of what level the spell is, much like blood Purge, the spell requires the target to have you know, blood. And this thing was 100% pure stone if memory serves. (I just skimmed the video to see if they actually show it, not sit and watch all 30 minutess?)

    So none of my spells shouldmt even effect it, in fact none of the other spells actually do effect it. That was a obvious oversight on their part but a fun lite exploit for me.




    If Blood Boil was just a little damage dealing skill on 5 minute cooldown, the game would be far more balanced. But will also be far worst. Will kill the fantasy of being mastered blood magic. Or if they have removed Tremere completely.
    ...no it wouldn't that wouldn't make the game more balanced, cooldowns and big damage numbers arent the only balancers used in games they are just the most common.

    It also wouldn't kill the fantasy of being master of blood magic since the game doesnt even dive into blood magic enough for you to run around with such a fantasy. And I played the game as a tremere using. Literally only blood boil and blood Purge to kill everything. And only using an axe or a gun when I ran out of blood.


    It's definitely a gargoyle, which is a type of Vampire the Tremere can make from the parts of other vampires.
    https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Gargoyle_(VTM)
    They have blood and disciplines just like other vampires. They are generally tougher and can take a lot more damage, but blood magic should bypass a lot of their resistances. A lot of powers in the game actually require the expenditure of blood which you have to take from people, that's part of the horror of the system. Every bit of your power is stolen from a person. So, it makes way more sense than a cool down system for them.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    They have blood and disciplines just like other vampires. They are generally tougher and can take a lot more damage, but blood magic should bypass a lot of their resistances. A lot of powers in the game actually require the expenditure of blood which you have to take from people, that's part of the horror of the system. Every bit of your power is stolen from a person. So, it makes way more sense than a cool down system for them.

    Cooldowns rarely make any sense. Eg, on Red orchestra 2, your MG 42 can overheat, so you can switch the barrel or wait it to cool down.

    As for your power being stolen, using that logic, we can't do anything without food, our power is stolen from animals and vegetables? Anyway, i don't know why so many people like the idea of RPG's instead of role playing games, where you can feel yourself in another would, being just boring endless consequenceless boring work... But there are tastes for everything.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    They have blood and disciplines just like other vampires. They are generally tougher and can take a lot more damage, but blood magic should bypass a lot of their resistances. A lot of powers in the game actually require the expenditure of blood which you have to take from people, that's part of the horror of the system. Every bit of your power is stolen from a person. So, it makes way more sense than a cool down system for them.

    Cooldowns rarely make any sense. Eg, on Red orchestra 2, your MG 42 can overheat, so you can switch the barrel or wait it to cool down.

    As for your power being stolen, using that logic, we can't do anything without food, our power is stolen from animals and vegetables? Anyway, i don't know why so many people like the idea of RPG's instead of role playing games, where you can feel yourself in another would, being just boring endless consequenceless boring work... But there are tastes for everything.

    I'm OK with some games that use cooldowns, so long as the combat's fun. I dig Divinity: OS2, but don't like DA: I for instance, but Origins was fun for me.

    Ya, technically we're all stealing our energy. Only the most simplistic life can exist without consuming other life. The difference with vampires is they're stealing from sentient beings that they used to be like while trying to hang on to their humanity. It's part of the horror and setting.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,776
    edited March 27
    It's definitely a gargoyle, which is a type of Vampire the Tremere can make from the parts of other vampires.
    https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Gargoyle_(VTM)
    They have blood and disciplines just like other vampires. They are generally tougher and can take a lot more damage, but blood magic should bypass a lot of their resistances. A lot of powers in the game actually require the expenditure of blood which you have to take from people, that's part of the horror of the system. Every bit of your power is stolen from a person. So, it makes way more sense than a cool down system for them.
    Ah, alright then, I remember them calling it a golemn in game but I also haven't played it since 2010-2011.

    You can plat that way. But blood shield is amazing and blood salvo too. Also, domination allow you to make people suicide and in trance, so you can feed and don't need to use much your guns.



    Keep in mind that this game is not DA:O, you can't use blood magic in front of templars as if it is nothing. It is a masquarede break to use it in front of kine.

    The game has few spells BUT they are all useful and cool. Is like arcanum, you have 5 necromancer spells but can do a lot with the 5. You can speak with the dead to solve quests in a different way, deal resource efficient damage or a lot of damage at great cost, summon undead or reanimate corpses. On VtMB, you can throw a single blood projectile, make people vomit their blood, create a blood shield, throw a lot of projectiles and make people explode using their own blood.

    IMO this is extremely better than having 3 action bars fulfilled with powers and spending 99% of the time managing cooldowns and spamming the same rotation over and over to farm gear over and over. Sure, the ideal would be like Baldur's Gate where you have a lot of spells and they are more unique if you could have different paths and unique quests to get each path. So, lure of flames, path of conjuration(with scripted object list like BG implemented wish), would make the game have a lot of quality and quantity.

    Quality & quantity(bg) > Quality(vtmb/arcanum) > only quantity(wow).

    What? Play what I way?
    Domination isn't a blood magic discipline, thus it's not blood magic. Now you're adding other disciplines that don't fall into the thing you originally said.

    Bloodlines whole system was built around mixing different skills together to create x/y/z type of character. Which is why each discipline itself has a set number of skills and abilities to them. From a gameplay mechanic this is a fun and good thing as it adds different styles of play but from a deep immersion of, "o want to play a master of thaumaturgy" or blood magic as you put it, it fails seeing how each discipline on its doesn't have that much depth to it to fully feel like you are a master blood mage.

    Your comparison to dao is pointless as that has 0 to actually do with what we were talking about so I dont even know why you brought it up outside of trying to trash a game you don't like.

    All the spells being cool, that's subjective to personal taste.

    All of them being useful, nope. I remember specifically blood magic had a spell I never found useful at all.

    And FYI since it seems you missed, I did play the game using ONLY Domination and Blood magic, beat it to and no you did need a fall back weapon because there were missions where your blood did I fact get too low and you would frenzy if you casted one more spell. I preferred not to frenzy.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    edited March 27
    They have blood and disciplines just like other vampires. They are generally tougher and can take a lot more damage, but blood magic should bypass a lot of their resistances. A lot of powers in the game actually require the expenditure of blood which you have to take from people, that's part of the horror of the system. Every bit of your power is stolen from a person. So, it makes way more sense than a cool down system for them.

    Cooldowns rarely make any sense. Eg, on Red orchestra 2, your MG 42 can overheat, so you can switch the barrel or wait it to cool down.

    As for your power being stolen, using that logic, we can't do anything without food, our power is stolen from animals and vegetables? Anyway, i don't know why so many people like the idea of RPG's instead of role playing games, where you can feel yourself in another would, being just boring endless consequenceless boring work... But there are tastes for everything.

    I'm OK with some games that use cooldowns, so long as the combat's fun. I dig Divinity: OS2, but don't like DA: I for instance, but Origins was fun for me.

    Ya, technically we're all stealing our energy. Only the most simplistic life can exist without consuming other life. The difference with vampires is they're stealing from sentient beings that they used to be like while trying to hang on to their humanity. It's part of the horror and setting.

    Yep. You are right. They are draining from sentient creatures.

    I could't enjoy dos2 exactly due his mechanics. No only CDs, the itemization itself is very wow like. Din't fell like a immersive world to explore and live. About CDs There are even people asking this mechanic on guns ( https://www.reddit.com/r/greedfall/comments/d2r7t3/there_should_probably_be_a_cooldown_on_firing_the/ )

    Come on.... Why not make you have to reload the weapon? Like weapons are supposed to work?
    DragonKing wrote: »

    What? Play what I way?
    Domination isn't a blood magic discipline, thus it's not blood magic. Now you're adding other disciplines that don't fall into the thing you originally said.

    Bloodlines whole system was built around mixing different skills together to create x/y/z type of character. Which is why each discipline itself has a set number of skills and abilities to them. From a gameplay mechanic this is a fun and good thing as it adds different styles of play but from a deep immersion of, "o want to play a master of thaumaturgy" or blood magic as you put it, it fails seeing how each discipline on its doesn't have that much depth to it to fully feel like you are a master blood mage.

    Your comparison to dao is pointless as that has 0 to actually do with what we were talking about so I dont even know why you brought it up outside of trying to trash a game you don't like.

    All the spells being cool, that's subjective to personal taste.

    All of them being useful, nope. I remember specifically blood magic had a spell I never found useful at all.

    And FYI since it seems you missed, I did play the game using ONLY Domination and Blood magic, beat it to and no you did need a fall back weapon because there were missions where your blood did I fact get too low and you would frenzy if you casted one more spell. I preferred not to frenzy.

    All blood magic spells ARE useful. Blood projectile is useful to deal single target blood efficient damage and return blood for you. Blood purge is good to CC and damage enemies. Blood shield to protect you, blood salvo to damage a lot of enemies and blood boil to OHK enemies

    Not using abilities that can return blood to you is your choice. Doesn't means that they aren't useful.

    And compared to other games who has blood magic like DA:O, VtMB's blood magic is far better in any aspect.

    If VtMB blood magic is that bad, please. Mention one game who did a better job. But is ironic. You criticize VTMB blood magic by having spells who you found not useful without mentioning the spell who isn't useful in your opinion, then accuse me of wanting to trash other game when i say that VtMB has one of the best blood magic. IF you disagree, is simple. Instead of accusing me of trashing other games(while ou trash vtmb) mention a single game with a better implementation of the power.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    In all fairness the Blood Magic spell in origins that let you just take control of an enemy and make it your bitch was pretty awesome. I'd use it on trolls any time I got the chance. It's been a long time so I can't recall any of the other spells. The mechanic of being able to exchange your health to fuel your spells was pretty cool. The problem is mages just got worse with each Dragon Age game.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    In all fairness the Blood Magic spell in origins that let you just take control of an enemy and make it your bitch was pretty awesome. I'd use it on trolls any time I got the chance. It's been a long time so I can't recall any of the other spells. The mechanic of being able to exchange your health to fuel your spells was pretty cool. The problem is mages just got worse with each Dragon Age game.

    Charm/Dominate spells exists in many games... Spend your lifeforce to maintain spells too. On BG/IWD/NWN, dominate monster is awesome.

    My problem with blood magic on Origins is the ludonarrative dissonance. Be able to use it in front of templars consequence free and during the prologue, a guy uses it to take control over a lot of enemies, but you can only take control over a single enemy on cooldown. Bloog magic works under completely different rules when NPCs uses it on cutscenes, and when the PC uses it DA:I took blood magic away to put spiritualist powers scaling 100% with weapon without animate dead and dared to call this "necromancy".

    The awful necromancy on inquisition and awful spell in general is again due the balance dogma.

    Recently i installed Returning 2.0 for Gothic 2. Best necromancy ever. You can even learn a skill who allows you to spend your lifeforce to maintain your minions and spells. There aren't summon limit on Gothic 1/2 but returning makes each minion requiring mana to maintain, so you can have a army of 60+ demons but it will require a hell lot of mana to maintain. You can also threaten NPC's in certain quests with fates worst than death.

    Here is a gameplay since the game is only famous on Central/Eastern Europe

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,424
    In all fairness the Blood Magic spell in origins that let you just take control of an enemy and make it your bitch was pretty awesome. I'd use it on trolls any time I got the chance. It's been a long time so I can't recall any of the other spells. The mechanic of being able to exchange your health to fuel your spells was pretty cool. The problem is mages just got worse with each Dragon Age game.

    Charm/Dominate spells exists in many games... Spend your lifeforce to maintain spells too. On BG/IWD/NWN, dominate monster is awesome.

    My problem with blood magic on Origins is the ludonarrative dissonance. Be able to use it in front of templars consequence free and during the prologue, a guy uses it to take control over a lot of enemies, but you can only take control over a single enemy on cooldown. Bloog magic works under completely different rules when NPCs uses it on cutscenes, and when the PC uses it DA:I took blood magic away to put spiritualist powers scaling 100% with weapon without animate dead and dared to call this "necromancy".

    The awful necromancy on inquisition and awful spell in general is again due the balance dogma.

    Recently i installed Returning 2.0 for Gothic 2. Best necromancy ever. You can even learn a skill who allows you to spend your lifeforce to maintain your minions and spells. There aren't summon limit on Gothic 1/2 but returning makes each minion requiring mana to maintain, so you can have a army of 60+ demons but it will require a hell lot of mana to maintain. You can also threaten NPC's in certain quests with fates worst than death.

    Here is a gameplay since the game is only famous on Central/Eastern Europe


    Not saying they don't have charm/dominate in other games, just that the blood control spell was pretty cool. We've had this conversation before about blood magic in DA and I know we agree on the ridiculousness of throwing around blood magic in front of templars. It is a glaring hole in the franchise. Plus magic keeps getting weaker in each release. I probably will not bother with the next Dragon Age game.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    In all fairness the Blood Magic spell in origins that let you just take control of an enemy and make it your bitch was pretty awesome. I'd use it on trolls any time I got the chance. It's been a long time so I can't recall any of the other spells. The mechanic of being able to exchange your health to fuel your spells was pretty cool. The problem is mages just got worse with each Dragon Age game.

    Charm/Dominate spells exists in many games... Spend your lifeforce to maintain spells too. On BG/IWD/NWN, dominate monster is awesome.

    My problem with blood magic on Origins is the ludonarrative dissonance. Be able to use it in front of templars consequence free and during the prologue, a guy uses it to take control over a lot of enemies, but you can only take control over a single enemy on cooldown. Bloog magic works under completely different rules when NPCs uses it on cutscenes, and when the PC uses it DA:I took blood magic away to put spiritualist powers scaling 100% with weapon without animate dead and dared to call this "necromancy".

    The awful necromancy on inquisition and awful spell in general is again due the balance dogma.

    Recently i installed Returning 2.0 for Gothic 2. Best necromancy ever. You can even learn a skill who allows you to spend your lifeforce to maintain your minions and spells. There aren't summon limit on Gothic 1/2 but returning makes each minion requiring mana to maintain, so you can have a army of 60+ demons but it will require a hell lot of mana to maintain. You can also threaten NPC's in certain quests with fates worst than death.

    Here is a gameplay since the game is only famous on Central/Eastern Europe


    Not saying they don't have charm/dominate in other games, just that the blood control spell was pretty cool. We've had this conversation before about blood magic in DA and I know we agree on the ridiculousness of throwing around blood magic in front of templars. It is a glaring hole in the franchise. Plus magic keeps getting weaker in each release. I probably will not bother with the next Dragon Age game.

    The next dragon age will gonna be a "live service" game probably... Dragon Age 4 Reportedly Being Built With “Live Service” in Mind, But Do Not Worry Just Yet https://onlysp.escapistmagazine.com/dragon-age-live-service/

    Inquisition was the first game that i tried to ask refund on Origins(and din't got refund) sadly because with the price of Inquisition, i could purchase a lot of games like BG...

    About magic being weaker, IMO the problem is that magic is being homogenized.

    Be a magician on Gothic is way harder than be a Warrior. Mainly on G1 and 2(mainly 2). Takes a hell lot of LP to learn mana and magical circles, saving LP until you convince someone to take you as a apprentice is also harder BUT considering how many warrior masters there are on colony and that only Saturas and Y'Berion learned circle 5 and only Xardas learned circle 6 magic, magic being insanely hard to learn makes sense. On G2, is harder because not only you need to learn magical circles and mana, but also magical circles are chapter restricted AND you need to learn how to make the runes(can't just buy then)

    They could try to find justifications to make magic different like the barrier between this world and the veil becoming stronger but no, being a mage on DS2 and DA:I offers almost the same experience of being a warrior

  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,023
    edited March 30
    What I got from that article about the live service sequel is that they were going to return to an Origins formula before going full EA. What a tragedy. Both of the sprawling choices and consequences focused RPGs of the modern era, Dragon Age and Mass Effect, have imploded due to ruthless but ultimately unsuccessful profiteering.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,882
    What I got from that article about the live service sequel is that they were going to return to an Origins formula before going full EA. What a tragedy. Both of the sprawling choices and consequences focused RPGs of the modern era, Dragon Age and Mass Effect, have imploded due to ruthless but ultimately unsuccessful profiteering.

    Even DA2 was better than inquisition in choices and consequences. The conflict magicians vs templars was interesting TBH. Despite the game being a decline compared to origins and origins being a decline compared to nwn1/bg

    Anyway, i recently purchased Greedfall and loved. Generally games who is heavily inspired by Spanish "conquest" of the new world or put Spanish as the saviors or Indigenous as the noble, pure nature worshipers. This game threats both sides with shades of grey and i love it. Has some degree of ludonarrative dissonance, like for eg, magical rings and firearms being sold by natives... Why? But the game is amazing despite small flaws.

    Lets hope that Spiders pick the vacuum of BioWare. Because BioWare is dead.

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