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Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
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New Renderer

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    edited June 2020
    The biggest issue about focusing solely on "under the hood" modding possibilities is that it's only really of any use for PW or module creators. Maybe indirectly their players as well. Albeit to a much lesser extend than the first group. Chances are that modders who are interested in utilizing NwN:EE's capabilities mostly already purchased it by now. And the majority of PW's use custom assets: making them unavailable for new customers on the mobile and console markets. Meaning little to no additional income for Beamdog as a company from both customer groups. It does keep the old, desktop PW users happy I guess.

    New gaming content on the other hand (if done right) brings additional income from the desktop, mobile and console player bases equally. If Beamdog wants to successfully profit from all of their customer groups, then they must work on their quality control at the very least. And be prepared to invest more into their development. Another not-really Premium Module Lite, like Dark Dreams of Furiae was, would be unacceptable in my book.

    DerpCity
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    And while that's true people who buy NWN on whim aren't looking at forums or feature lists either. You can't really expect to generate many new customers with random content that doesn't say much to some random person. Most people who care about the content already own the game, I certainly don't care about the content in games I don't own. It hasn't worked yet and I don't expect it to start working any time soon.

    Those under the hood improvements will bring in an actual quantifiable amount of customers proportional to whatever the top three pws bring in which accounts for about half the total in pw population if not more. Not only do you get guaranteed customers for minor and cheap changes in comparison to expensive content. You also increase the baseline population of active users. What is more off-putting than an old looking game? A game that people perceive as dead.

    Guess what non-customers think of Dark Dreams of Furiae? They just don't.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Sorry. But I for one really don't care all that much about PWs. Never played any of them back in non-EE NwN days. And I don't plan to either. Similarly, I don't think that people who buy NwN "on a whim" will use it as anything more than a singleplayer game. Such people aren't few in numbers, if not actual the majority of NwN players. Whenever PW "X" has feature "Y" or utilizes "Z" is of little interest to the casual singleplayer after all. All in all, the likelihood that potential customers intentionally buy the game solely for playing on one or two specific PW's by the word of mouth is to my understanding minuscule at best.

    As you said yourself: the usual player of today won't even bother reading patch notes. So even if Beamdog continues with focusing on expanding modding functionality, the majority of their customers won't know about them and thus will not use them. Certainly not on mobile or consoles anyway. You cannot win customers over with things they cannot perceive after all. What people however can see are purchaseable DLC's popping up on their respective storefront. And that's where the money is for Beamdog if they continue planning to support NwN:EE in the coming years.

    Prince_Raymond
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    Yeah but you already bought the game. What are they supposed to do, sell it to you ten thousand times?

    It's because the typical customer is not affected by any of this that it isn't really a useful argument to suggest they will jump in excitement for new content. They might (anything physically possible can happen) but it's unlikely. The main audience for premium modules are die hard fans like yourself, and for what? $2 a piece? Yikes.

    The likelihood that customers pay to play on a PW is guaranteed, they already exist, you can actually influence them more than say a random Call of Duty player. But yes lets examine the influence of new content...


    erobit0y6ucf.png

    Does the chart show that events external to development (sales, holidays, pandemics) drive new customers rather than content/DLC or updates? Or does the chart show that they should really really really fund more modules exactly like Dark Dreams of Furiae?

    Maybe the core player base is on Google Play instead?

    Maybe the theory is just wrong, no?

    Then again I'm sure there is an explanation, there's always an explanation.

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Yeah but you already bought the game. What are they supposed to do, sell it to you ten thousand times?
    That's what post-release content such as DLC's and Expansions are known for to achieve. :)
    Of course, to pull that off they have to be actually good. It would be both useless and counterproductive to churn out one bad DLC after another here. Quality and eyecandy over quantity and stock assets should be Beamdog's new office motto. The difference between Tyrants of the Moonsea and Dark Dreams of Furiae made this explicitly clear. It's also needless to say that such premium modules see more success on the non-desktop fronts. Given the lack of community made modules there and all. Desktop users on the other hand have a wide variety of both old and new custom modules for their offline enjoyment. This diminishes their need to purchase premium modules greatly.
    The likelihood that customers pay to play on a PW is guaranteed, they already exist, you can actually influence them more than say a random Call of Duty player.
    There exists such a vile thing as pay-to-play PW's for NwN??? If true that's one thing I will have no part in it whatsoever. Ever. Yikes! :grimace:
    And I dearly hope Beamdog will never go that route as well. Both for this title and potential sequels of Neverwinter Nights. There are already way too many monetary MMO schemes out there for my taste.
    Does the chart show that events external to development (sales, holidays, pandemics) drive new customers rather than content/DLC or updates? Or does the chart show that they should really really really fund more modules exactly like Dark Dreams of Furiae?
    The chart shows that it goes on every single sale occaision imaginable. Just like any other Beamdog titles before it. And most likely those coming after NwN as well. No rocket science to find here, really. That, and the release of EE premium modules did influence the numbers. Alas to a much lesser extend than Beamdog would have liked to see, I'm sure. See paragraph one.

  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    With all due respect they have been doing exactly what you're asking for the last two years. You got what you asked for but you don't like the result. Now they can take your advice and continue doing the same for the next two years and maybe get the same net result again. Who would be to blame?

    I hope you do get more premium content eventually but their priorities should be on solving the things they actually can influence and not just the things you really want more of. Obviously you'll continue to defend your false belief and try to contort everything to match despite the only objective evidence we have consistently indicating the contrary.

    I don't even know what you're trying to say with the PW part, that isn't remotely close to what was posted. You understand full well they play on a PW after they purchase NWN. Never mind though if the discussion is going to devolve in that way it's pointless to continue.

    Zwerkulesdunahan
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    I guess we just have to respectfully agree to disagree on all rised points thus far. As seemingly none of us will relent their point of view for what we personally think is the best way for NwN:EE to grow in the future.

    You are free to hold on your own believe that additional modding capabilities and multiplayer should be the sole focus and ignore everything else. I will root for the singleplayer portion of the game and continue pushing for asset enhancements that can actually be noticed while playing the game itself. As this is indeed what I feel is currently needed the most.

    In the end it's up for Beamdog to decide what they want to do. Maybe it will be a mix of both to keep all sides more or less invested.
    Have a nice day. :)

    Jidokwon
  • R_TEAMR_TEAM Member Posts: 35
    to get the potential out of the new options in modding and gfx you need at first new "good" modules and new GFX - booth are nearly non existent - as good (and legendary) modules builder from the community long gone - and the same for GFX artists that relase new tilesets
    ... where now exactly get an advance from the good but unused new opportunities .........
    and with the canceling of an important and public known feature the chance to get new good modules builder or artists or an "come-back" of old masters does not become more likely now

  • CerabelusCerabelus Member Posts: 357
    I have my doubt's about how far the new renderer project went, I fear the NWN EE release was a cash grab relying on modders to provide the extra content so they didn't have to spend the money.

    I suspect the money from NWN release went to a new game instead of NWN, as I recall when people kept asking for more Infinity Engine content they said it was very expensive to make IE content so I said to myself "NWN is easier to make for so are we getting new stories?".

    I love NWN and the other D&D games but I'm disappointed with the lack of Beamdog content in NWN.

    RifleLeroy
  • FilipseFilipse Member Posts: 36
    More empty promises from Beamdog, whoa big suprise. *sarcasm*

    Timbo0o0o0Ludwig_II
  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,148
    @JuliusBorisov Given that there was a new renderer done for the consoles late last year is there any chance these limited improvements (according to what you told me back then) being ported to the PC/Linux/Mac version of the game. Back when I asked you this months ago, you said no because the new renderer being worked on would blow those improvements out of the water. Given that the new renderer being worked on at the time is no more, surely such considerations no longer apply.

    Hint, I am not holding my breath here just removing the last vestiges of hope.

    TR

    Kamigoroshi
  • DwayneDwayne Member Posts: 90
    At this point, I'd prefer to show first, talk second.

    There are improvements, visual improvements included, which are being worked on and they will be released. Once we have more / substantial details, we'll share them.

    Sounds good.

  • PstemariePstemarie Member Posts: 191
    edited June 2020
    Funny.

    I'd love to read everyone's complaint as to what the "new renderer" is to them.

    3/4 probably have no clue as to what a "new renderer" was going to be.

    Yup, that's me - no clue what it would have done for the game (or me). Game runs fine, I'm happy. Not missing a new renderer - which in reality probably would have brought a host of new issues with well established and widely used CC.

    RananGrymlordedunahanjackjack
  • FilipseFilipse Member Posts: 36
    edited June 2020
    Oh dear @Filipse. Having looked through the rest of your 32 posts on these forums, I have a question. Why are you so consistently negative towards BD?
    TR

    Put simply, i expected more results from a +3 year period of development, and the Renderer essentialy spells about 1½ years of wasted development and time, while getting constantly teased about it's functionalities in Dev-mentions, only for it to never see the light of day.

    I am allowed to like something and still be critical of the state of things, which in reality is the feels that there is very little to show that makes NWN:EE realy "Enhanced", to which i am hardly alone in thinking either given the overall review-opinions on the product on markets overall.

    (baldurs gate is a better product on that department; even if i am not super-big on SOD it was okay and atleast something)

    Cerabelus
  • BluddyBluddy Member Posts: 20
    My impression is that Beamdog is just spread far, far too thin to do anything effectively at this point. Projects that they should have churned through and been done with were improved very gradually (Infinity Engine). They then ported those engines, causing more support headaches. NWN should have been front and center and only released once obvious improvements were visible to the end user, but once again it lagged on as one more product. Now it's been ported to Android and that version is being held hostage to the iOS port. Now they added Axis & Allies. It's hard to believe that years later, the renderer is really not ready. Either the programmers have been doing very little this whole time, or they've been multitasking way more than they should be.

    The solution is simple: release the source code publicly. If EA can do it with C&C Remastered, you can do it with NWN:EE. The community will be able to finish the code.

    bladeshriek
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    Will you finish the code Bluddy? Because I'm not sure who else will do it.

    Some people will download it but never do anything with it. Some people will make minor tweaks, but nobody will agree to a standard. Many will refuse community alterations and will demand that Beamdog physically types out the code themselves.

    Besides that I believe they said before that they have a complicated licensing structure so it most likely wouldn't even be possible.

    It's worth noting that the file formats are pretty much open and available, and the rest is a series of Youtube tutorials to get a simple modern engine with so-so performance running within the year. Source code access isn't the limiting factor here. Things just aren't the same as they were 20 years ago, but where are the victims whose free time we're going to nominate while we relax?

    Even the more simple things the community can do with the current engine are not being done much. Most people refuse to do modding and instead spend time blaming Beamdog, fair or not, things don't get done like that. Some others refuse to even install custom content to satisfy their requests, again they demand that Beamdog do it rather than use the already available solution.

    So while we can criticize Beamdog for several things a lot of it also comes down to the end users.

    Zwerkulesdunahan
  • CerabelusCerabelus Member Posts: 357
    edited June 2020
    @FreshLemonBun
    Are we suppose to rely on the community to provide the "Enhanced Edition" features?
    If so then why did we buy the game again?

    My copy is on GOG so no Steam Workshop for me, there are sites with heaps of mods available though.

    For me i check out mods after I've experienced all the original game has to offer, i don't go looking to the community to provide the full game experience i purchased.

    As for what @Bluddy said about Beamdog spreading themselves to far, it does seem that way but I've also heard that maybe Wizards of the Coast have done Beamdog dirty, is that true?

    At this point i hope Beamdog's resources are working on a new IP for themselves and we can get a new game.

    Post edited by Cerabelus on
    bladeshriek
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    @Cerabelus Exactly, it's a waste of time even hypothetically if they released source code or if the community made their own client from scratch. Both unlikely scenarios, and double unlikely to convince people to waste their unpaid free time to make it if most wont use it unless it's official.

  • CerabelusCerabelus Member Posts: 357
    edited June 2020
    @FreshLemonBun
    Well I'm convinced there's no reason to continue supporting this development then.

    Thank you for convincing me to stop wasting my time

  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 1,017
    edited June 2020
    Just adding 3 considerations:

    1) The renderer vs the console versions

    I am playing on Switch and definitely feel that the graphics are quite ok - we might not have a renderer, but the graphics feels enhanced already.

    I haven’t seen the graphics up close for the usual ee version, and perhaps the console versions are a bit better than the regular versions.
    If so I hope that you all can get enhanced..

    Overall I am very pleased about the version and job that Beamdog did. Well done.

    Can it be enhanced further? Don’t know, but I am quite pleased already.

    2) the price

    I bought my game on GameStop on a general sale - many titles where on sale. I paid “only” 43 USD. To me it’s a total bargain. I got loads of modules, and just miss Tyrants of Moonsea - which I gladly buy as a DLC if possible?

    Just to put the price in perspective. About the same I bought NWN:we, I bought “Sonic and Mario at the Olympics“. I paid the full price (67 USD). The game can give my family 20 hours of enjoyable game time, and has already been shelved. NWN:ee can give me 200 hours of game time - if not more.

    The price may be steep no matter what, but NWN and the BG saga has and always will be my best entertainment investment - second to none. I have willingly and gladly bought all the EE editions, and the dividends from the investment are supreme.

    3) uncoding the hard coding

    From what I have seen from the BG : ee versions, many gifted modders have praised Beamdog for unhardcoding the hard coding - they have said other things about other stuff, but the un hard coding has been truly appreciated . We have seen mods that can tweak the rule set in many ways not possible in the old versions. It may not be that spectacular, but to me it really prolongs my interest.

    Once you get the familiarity of the game, the new mods can give you a totally different gaming experience. To me these options means that I can play the these games for an even longer time - since there is so much I haven’t done yet.

    To me this un hard coding, is the true enhancement - not the marginal better graphics. But each to their own

    Post edited by StummvonBordwehr on
    TarotRedhandAciferRedRodentdunahan
  • FreshLemonBunFreshLemonBun Member Posts: 907
    Sure don't support the hypothetical open source and community developed engine that doesn't actually exist. It wont make any difference since it doesn't exist.

  • Prince_RaymondPrince_Raymond Member Posts: 412
    Silverizer wrote: »
    Silverizer wrote: »

    I don't see how that could be the reason. @JuliusBorisov already stated in the announcement that the current renderer just proved too much for them to perform a rewrite. I'm guessing that the technology used to develop it is so dated, it could not be modernized beyond the scope of its capabilities. It would be like trying to trick out a Model T by replacing the stock engine with one from a Shelby Mustang Cobra. It simply won't work due to the technological gap. Besides, that report was published back in October of last year. Beamdog announced the cancellation of the new renderer near the end of May this year. If the axing of the tax credit actually was the reason the renderer was cancelled, why would Beamdog wait almost nine months afterwards to make the announcement? It doesn't make sense. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.

    The article stated that the Tax Credit accounted for 25% of Beamdog staff payroll. This was a huge hit to Beamdogs financials.

    In Canada, taxes are not filed in October, when the article came out. It would only be felt in the new year. Taxes are actually filed in Canada around this time.

    Maybe at this point, the community can help Beamdog find more ways to generate revenue from Neverwinter Nights:
    - Purchase DLC
    - Encourage development of new DLC
    - Recruit a friend

    I personally have recruited friends in my age group to pickup NWN EE. For younger people ect, the upgraded graphics would have helped..

    I understand, now. Thanks for the clarification. In the US, the deadline to file taxes is April 15. I usually try to file just after the first of the new year if I can get my W-2 early enough. I hope and pray that Beamdog will rebound from this setback. Thank you for reading, and happy (healthy) gaming to all.

  • R_TEAMR_TEAM Member Posts: 35
    it is no question - Beamdog have doing a couple of good things to NWN .....

    But i musst to get an modern and amazing looking NWN still install NWNCQ, this is from 2014 ....
    use overrides for weapon gfx that use the new possibilitys of the gfx engine ....
    install from the neverwintervault.org numerous overrides for creatures and so one ..
    so the changes an end-user see from NWN to NWN:EE are very small and still not easy to use
    (steam have problems if you get an workshop object with 5000+ small files - and even more will the user use multiple override objects with such numerous small files ... simply uncommen in nowdays game folder-structure.. so to get this flawless running manual install is still needed.. practicaly nearly no diff to NWN classic)

  • PhantomasPhantomas Member Posts: 2
    edited June 2020
    Hi,

    i´m a longtime modder and fan of NWN and yes i´m completely disapointed [thats why i created an account] that the renderer was .. droped. I waited almost 2 years, put my NWN EE project [a quest for glory mod] aside and waited for the renderer to be released. So well, i´m ******* up, thats it!
    Thank you for not telling it a year ago. I will go back to NWN diamond instead and have fun, NWN_babayaga!
    And oh i´m not interested in the "why it didnt happen" because i dont realy care. I had such great visions for my project and always wished for an improved rendering engine couldnt imagine what you guys might could have created with it. So seriously, i´m done with EE.

  • TarotRedhandTarotRedhand Member Posts: 1,148
    Consider these two consecutive tweets from a few days ago -

    j8p3wj01kf2w.png

    Now I wouldn't read too much into them but there are a few of things there that may (or may not, I'm not privy to such things) be of interest as far as NwN EE goes. AFAIK NwN was written in C++. The mention of rendering systems coupled with debugging graphical defects. Then in the tweet by @TrentOster the mention of being open to remote candidates (something that, from what was said in the live streams, they normally wouldn't normally consider).

    Now I realise that it is very likely not, but wouldn't it be nice if BD was reconsidering the decision to abandon a new renderer for NwN but don't want to get our hopes up a second time? Ah well. We can but dream.

    TR

    T0R0StummvonBordwehr
  • PhantomasPhantomas Member Posts: 2
    edited June 2020
    Not trying to insult anyone who but my 2 cents about the work being done on the renderer [i am not a programmer but i have a fully working mind and i know when stuff gets too complicated]
    I compare the situtation to a "insolvency delay" in business.

    Personaly when i encounter serious difficulties working on something i can already use my logical thinking if it will work out in the end or not and if it´s not going to work i tell my customers and fellow fans that it might just not happen. Ok! That´s pretty simple in RL.

    So i dont see me [as i am not talking for anyone else as just me] as something equaly considered [worthyness] like a business entity [which is ok for me anyway] from which you can get lot´s of money for your corperation. So this leads me to believe that i was personaly told something i can believe or not [as a stupid believer back then] which was unlikey to work out as of when ? Nobody can tell me a work worth of 2 years of heavy dedication into something suddenly takes a turn and whoosh, nothing works! It´s ...no. Not even to be considered as true!

    I hope i didnt hurt anyones feelings but i certainly feel somewhat pranked!

    So, before stuff get´s heated i just accept their decission and do my own thing which always works as it should becuase i know what i am doing at least :D

    NWN_babayaga out

    oh and congrats for having great prinz harry and meghan merkel [she would make a fantastic drow in a new premium module as the main villain] now in canada. Still worse then a better renderer for NWN but hey, Trudue suks too ;)

  • DwayneDwayne Member Posts: 90
    I have noticed that Beamdog has deleted a lot of posts here. I guess they can't take negative feedback.

    jpsweeney94
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