Now, all that said - the Pathfinder game system and PF:KM always felt like a game that incentivized you to powergame. So I do feel like there's an implicit contradiction of playing a game that wants you to powergame/min-max, and then playing the weaker version of something.
@Jaheiras_Witness has already addressed a lot of what I was going to say, but I would ask: where is this 'incentive to powergame' coming from? I don't feel any such incentive when I play P:Km. In fact, the very idea of "powergaming" in the context of P:Km didn't even occur to me until I read your post. Sure, everyone likes having their PC be "powerful" in some sense, but I don't necessarily see that in some objective sense. I've often mixed in levels of this or that class in seriously crazy builds just for fun of it. I also routinely use sub-optimal weapons just because I happen to like those weapons and find them "cool." So I don't see how one could say, objectively speaking, that the game system incentivizes powergaming. If anything, it incentivizes experimenting and doing crazy stuff, at the expense of powergaming.
I suppose it could come down to your opinion of the definition of powergaming - but the fact that I need to boost my AC above 50 or 60 to consistently stand in melee combat at the house at the end of time suggests that the game is expecting you to play with some serious optimization. Sure, you could *not* play that way, but I feel like you would need to cope with additional strategies (or cheese) to successfully make it through. This is assuming, among other things, a blind playthrough and a lack of walkthrough resources.
I'm sure there are crazy talented people who have speed run the final chapter woefully undergeared and underprepared, but I wouldnt point to that as an example that the game doesnt incentivize powergaming/min-maxing, just the power of meta game knowledge.
Not critiquing your way of playing here, 'cause you should absolutely play how you want to play, but this seems to be entirely a 'you' situation. As I've just said, I do not at all powergame or min-max and play purely for my personal roleplaying/story/characters delight. And yet, I routinely am able to get Valerie (as my tank) up to over 50 AC by the last chapter. My own melee PC and Amiri typically end up with ACs in the 45-50 range. But, like @Vallmyr said, I am happy to concede that I also quite often lower my difficulty level whenever I'm feeling aggravated with the combat (and I do this with every cRPG that allows me to do it, and hate any game that doesn't allow me to do this).
If it´s of any use, they added already the difficulty options. You can pick a "general" one or you can switch on or off particular things, like the number of enemies per encounter, toughness, critical hit´s strength, duration of the debuffs, etc... and the usual "easy mode" for crusade management.
There´s also a respec option to remade your characters and (partially) retrain your companions when you find a friendly pathfinder society trainer.
IMHO, with the difficulty options, I´m playing I find the game challenging, but manageable without min-maxing ( You cannot fully min-maxing if you want to take the companions with you anyway).
I thought the same about kingmaker until I reach the (Boy, talking about difficulty spikes) endgame and the House of the edge of time, so I hope they do not make the same mistake again.
Right now I´m focused on the skills (you have lots of interactions with the environment and NPCs) to get the most info, dialogues, etc... and I´m doing just fine taking "skill monkey" feats and backgrounds and without dropping INT or CHA.
I'm sure there are plenty of players who can look at the fighter/wizard multiclass, compare it to the Magus - find it lacking, and still totally enjoy playing it. For whatever reason, that's something I have a hard time doing.
Well, it depends on your playstyle I suppose.
If we´re talking pure power gaming here (disregarding your personal playstyle preferences, you can play whatever build you find fun) any magus outclasses 90% of the fighter-wiz builds you can make in melee combat, maximize feat and level economy and damage output, Simply because of spell combat and spellstrike. No contest
You are effectively attacking twice every round (all your usual attacks plus a spell attack) and you can deliver your touch spells with your weapon, adding an extra attack with more damage; you can use armour and casting spells without a feat, you get fighter feats like greater weapon focus, weapon specialization and metamagic feats for free at mid-levels, you can enchant any weapon you have on the spot so you always have the right tool for the job, you can use spell recall or wands for spellcombat so you seldom run out of spells, you have a full caster level, have bonuses on concentration for free, animal or familiar companion level equal to your character level without feats, ... I can go on and on and on...
Double all said above for ranged combat if you are using an Eldrich archer magus.
If you´re looking for a character with Crowd control spells and such, I understand you can find it lacking because of the reduced selection of spells, but If we´re being min-maxers here, disregarding playstyles preference, there are far better options than an MC fighter-wizard-eldritch knight to make a warrior debuffer.
I suffered once the demon corruption due to several bad rolls in religion while resting and it´s annoying.
I started a game with a kitsune mounted magus with a bite attack, a loremaster with high int, that uses a bully companion to trample over the enemies and could use the "arcane pool enhancement" with the mount too so they both charge into melee wielding scimitar and spell, because I can XD. Aaanyway, Since the magus could use wands for spellstrike and have spell recall, I rarely run out of spells. It´s cool to avoid resting too much...
So... as early as level 4 I have an arcane rider that makes 6!!! attacks per turn enhanced by magic.
Also, enhances his animal companion with the arcane pool at the same time, do not run out of spells because I use wands (25 charges each) for spell combat or the touch of fatigue cantrip that debuffs with every weapon hit, has 50ft speed riding (so I can charge from the other side of the map), does an average 30-40damage per turn at level 4 (without crits), does not have arcane spell failure with armour, has 6 skill points every level, d8hp per level, full caster level, etc.
And it´s not even a min-maxed character, he is a normal level 3 arcane rider. You do not even need to reach level 10-15 to have a balanced, strong character.
I understand magus would not be suited to some playstyles, but they´re strong in his role. I do not even understand how they managed to make Regongar so weak until he reaches the endgame.
PD: Strangely enough, you can make a dhampir with an undead horse companion, maybe I will try it next time =P
They added more specific dialogues for races, gods, mythic paths and classes, so I think trying different characters it´s worthwhile.
Oook... Do you remember when I told you that in chapter 2 everybody and his cat has magic resistance and elemental resistances?
I was wondering if we could expect some changes in the enemies in the following chapters...and there is.
In ch4 most of the elite and bosses have magic resistance, elemental resistances AND true sight.
It seems I would have to send the illusion school to the trash bin with the entire evocation school...
Owlcat guys really hate mages, it seems
PD: It seems spell penetration, greater spell penetration, Mythic spell penetration and abundant casting would be a must for Nenio, wolfgit and Ember.
BTW, in the PF WoTR wiki they give you a huge spoiler about Nenio, I advise you to avoid it XD
Yeahh. That all sounds great. I'm excited and pretty hopeful the initial product will be polished and game ready on day one. Looking forward to sinking my teeth into a new, finished CRPG sometime soon.
Jans Holstrom: Does the sentient weapon companion have a romance option?
Jans Holstrom: Does the sentient weapon companion have a romance option?
Alexander Mishulin: No
DLC incoming
You mean a mod.
There are twelve companions, all romanceable, and yet people on the Owlcat forum are unhappy because of course their preferred companion is not a romance option for them (gender+sexual orientation combo restrictions). And I'll include myself in that because the only available straight female doesn't strike my fancy. But at least for me, I don't really care that much since I don't really care about the romance parts of RPGs anyway unless there are some other tangible quest/roleplay benefits from pursuing the romances. But I see a mod being made very soon to allow anyone to romance any of the companions.
Jans Holstrom: Does the sentient weapon companion have a romance option?
Alexander Mishulin: No
DLC incoming
You mean a mod.
There are twelve companions, all romanceable, and yet people on the Owlcat forum are unhappy because of course their preferred companion is not a romance option for them (gender+sexual orientation combo restrictions). And I'll include myself in that because the only available straight female doesn't strike my fancy. But at least for me, I don't really care that much since I don't really care about the romance parts of RPGs anyway unless there are some other tangible quest/roleplay benefits from pursuing the romances. But I see a mod being made very soon to allow anyone to romance any of the companions.
I remember when DA2 was released and everyone was complaining that all the romance options swung what ever the PC played.
Fast forward a decade and people are complaining that their romance option actually has preferences.
I am over romances in games. IMO, they are never done right. DA:O was close with a relationship meter, but it’s been giant steps back since then.
I am enjoying the story that WotR is telling so far, and all the companions I have met are interesting, and for the first time in a long time, I having a difficult time determining who I want to take with me and whose stories I want to experience, so if any romance keeps that up, I’ll be content enough. But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
Jans Holstrom: Does the sentient weapon companion have a romance option?
Alexander Mishulin: No
DLC incoming
You mean a mod.
There are twelve companions, all romanceable, and yet people on the Owlcat forum are unhappy because of course their preferred companion is not a romance option for them (gender+sexual orientation combo restrictions). And I'll include myself in that because the only available straight female doesn't strike my fancy. But at least for me, I don't really care that much since I don't really care about the romance parts of RPGs anyway unless there are some other tangible quest/roleplay benefits from pursuing the romances. But I see a mod being made very soon to allow anyone to romance any of the companions.
I've intentionally kept myself in the dark about the companions. It's my experience that I have a pretty good idea early on if I'll like a game or not, and once I make that determination, I try to avoid spoiling too much for myself. I'm pretty sure I'm there on WotR
That said, CRPGs can be a bit different too. I usually make my character based partially upon the classes and alignment of the characters I'm most interested in. Knowing nothing about them can make that tricky (inevitably, I'll probably play a neutral-ish alignment so I dont feel bad mixing and matching, and a build that can fit into multiple parties).
Out of curiosity, are there are racial restrictions in the romances (like how BG2 wouldnt let an elf romance Viconia, IIRC).
I am enjoying the story that WotR is telling so far, and all the companions I have met are interesting, and for the first time in a long time, I having a difficult time determining who I want to take with me and whose stories I want to experience, so if any romance keeps that up, I’ll be content enough. But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
You do not only romance your companions, you can also romance NPCs, like in DAI. I kinda liked the queen and the interactions with her and Daeran are funny.
I agree companions (and the Npcs you met) are interesting and it´s difficult to choose... but to be honest, I´m a sucker for the voice of Amelia Tyler (Nyrissa of PF:K; Maladie of Dos2, Bg3 narrator) so Wenduag will definitely be part of the group. She´s wicked tho.
Strangely enough, I´m not much into the evil party, but the evil guys are intriguing in this game.
I wonder how´s it going to be because Seelah the paladin is a must for my party =P (BTW she´s exactly how I imagine her to be for the stories in the lore of Pathfinder, Owlcat´s devs definitely know their stuff).
I´m playing a kitsune so I wonder if I could manage to get lucky in human fo rm and in werefox shape... or maybe I could make a "Two much" and take two "mates" at the same time?
But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
According to "leaks" I saw on another forum, you can't romance anyone as a lich or swarm that walks.
I think the trickster path is one of the weakest but man, I think I´m going trickster just for the laughs... The trickster path and the skills are hilarious. You cannot say you´ve lived until you killed a demon with a Beer elemental and your faithful fish missile.
I like the idea of killing demons one joke at a time.
But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
According to "leaks" I saw on another forum, you can't romance anyone as a lich or swarm that walks.
I can't decide between Kitsune Dirge Bard Lich or Trickster for my first run. Trickster fits my preferred alignment more, but I I've always wanted to play as a Lich for years and years @_@. The answer is going to be BOTH.
But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
According to "leaks" I saw on another forum, you can't romance anyone as a lich or swarm that walks.
Thanks, but please keep spoilers to a minimum or use tags. I am like @BallpointMan and stay away from majority of game leaks as possible when I choose to play a game.
I am enjoying the story that WotR is telling so far, and all the companions I have met are interesting, and for the first time in a long time, I having a difficult time determining who I want to take with me and whose stories I want to experience, so if any romance keeps that up, I’ll be content enough. But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
You do not only romance your companions, you can also romance NPCs, like in DAI. I kinda liked the queen and the interactions with her and Daeran are funny.
I agree companions (and the Npcs you met) are interesting and it´s difficult to choose... but to be honest, I´m a sucker for the voice of Amelia Tyler (Nyrissa of PF:K; Maladie of Dos2, Bg3 narrator) so Wenduag will definitely be part of the group. She´s wicked tho.
Strangely enough, I´m not much into the evil party, but the evil guys are intriguing in this game.
I wonder how´s it going to be because Seelah the paladin is a must for my party =P (BTW she´s exactly how I imagine her to be for the stories in the lore of Pathfinder, Owlcat´s devs definitely know their stuff).
I´m playing a kitsune so I wonder if I could manage to get lucky in human fo rm and in werefox shape... or maybe I could make a "Two much" and take two "mates" at the same time?
PD: Nope, they know you in both shapes... bummer.
On Wenduag
ya, I restarted 3 times - the second time to try out Lann and I prefer Wenduag to him by a long shot. I give her rogue levels to deal backstab damage from a distance and she so far a must have in the party so far.
So far, Seelah is the only tank/meat shield I have encountered so she is a must as well. I am hoping her alignment doesn’t get in the way especially if she is the only tank (so far), but time will tell.
Thanks, but please keep spoilers to a minimum or use tags. I am like @BallpointMan and stay away from majority of game leaks as possible when I choose to play a game.
Sorry, new here, didn't know how to make spoilers. But, figured it out now, I believe.
But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
According to "leaks" I saw on another forum, you can't romance anyone as a lich or swarm that walks.
Thanks, but please keep spoilers to a minimum or use tags. I am like @BallpointMan and stay away from majority of game leaks as possible when I choose to play a game.
I am enjoying the story that WotR is telling so far, and all the companions I have met are interesting, and for the first time in a long time, I having a difficult time determining who I want to take with me and whose stories I want to experience, so if any romance keeps that up, I’ll be content enough. But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
You do not only romance your companions, you can also romance NPCs, like in DAI. I kinda liked the queen and the interactions with her and Daeran are funny.
I agree companions (and the Npcs you met) are interesting and it´s difficult to choose... but to be honest, I´m a sucker for the voice of Amelia Tyler (Nyrissa of PF:K; Maladie of Dos2, Bg3 narrator) so Wenduag will definitely be part of the group. She´s wicked tho.
Strangely enough, I´m not much into the evil party, but the evil guys are intriguing in this game.
I wonder how´s it going to be because Seelah the paladin is a must for my party =P (BTW she´s exactly how I imagine her to be for the stories in the lore of Pathfinder, Owlcat´s devs definitely know their stuff).
I´m playing a kitsune so I wonder if I could manage to get lucky in human fo rm and in werefox shape... or maybe I could make a "Two much" and take two "mates" at the same time?
PD: Nope, they know you in both shapes... bummer.
On Wenduag
ya, I restarted 3 times - the second time to try out Lann and I prefer Wenduag to him by a long shot. I give her rogue levels to deal backstab damage from a distance and she so far a must have in the party so far.
So far, Seelah is the only tank/meat shield I have encountered so she is a must as well. I am hoping her alignment doesn’t get in the way especially if she is the only tank (so far), but time will tell.
There´s Regill the hellknight too... he is more tanky and tough (he is a gnome) but Seelah is a powerhouse in comparison and more an all-rounder. His alignment gives you more options, since he is Lawful evil. You find him much more later in the game than Seelah, tho.
That makes sense because of his story and because he is a hellknight, a prestige class so you need several levels to get to it. And you really need to be an experienced warrior to pass The Test and become a hellknight (You have to beat a demon in single combat) =D
He is originally an armiger fighter, that lorewise is the usual previous path to become a hellknight (You even get to choose the order of Hellknights you will join as a squire and choose hellknight feats as an armiger) so when (if) you become a hellknight you automatically become a member of that order.
[Don´t worry that is not an spoiler, it´s general knowledge about hellknights, the story of Regill and what order he belongs to; you have to ask him
Well, since he is lawful evil, not neutral nor good, I think you have a clue there]
He is a dex-fighter, oddly for a heavy-armored hellknight, and a small gnome, so he has more ac and CON, but for those very reasons Seelah packs much more punch, being a paladin and a medium creature;
I have not played him much besides the quest he is involved with so maybe I could be biased
BTW, in the PF WoTR wiki they give you a huge spoiler about Nenio, I advise you to avoid it XD
A keen observer can clue in that something is amiss with her though. I almost flagged it as a bug when I was viewing character sheets.
I was spoiled when I went searching for Kaylessa, a minor NPC (so far) that one can come across in the Market Square, whose name sounded so familiar that I actually think it’s an Easter Egg to IWD, and saw something I didn’t want to see.
BTW, in the PF WoTR wiki they give you a huge spoiler about Nenio, I advise you to avoid it XD
A keen observer can clue in that something is amiss with her though. I almost flagged it as a bug when I was viewing character sheets.
I was spoiled when I went searching for Kaylessa, a minor NPC (so far) that one can come across in the Market Square, whose name sounded so familiar that I actually think it’s an Easter Egg to IWD, and saw something I didn’t want to see.
Yeah, it´s becoming increasingly difficult to avoid spoilers ha ha.
I could only play on weekends and I didn´t even finished the new beta content ( mythic paths and stuff) so...
If it will be amazing we'll about to see. Kingmaker supposed to be amazing too. Yeah, it wasn't... at least for me. I'm curious if Owlcat once again focused on gameplay mechanics instead of story and location design. I don't want to get yet another game that is faithful to pnp mechanics. I want a fascinating world, lively and full of memorable places and npcs, without copy&pasted maps, convoluted kingdom menagament mechanics or more of a strategy rather than rpg feeling. Your meme focuses on the gameplay aspect, which definitely is not the most important thing to me.
Yeah, I get it, game looks promising
But so was Kingmaker. There is a hope Owlcat learned his lessons, but I fear those lessons might be only concern gameplay aspects, which I'm sure will be super sharp. Will the role playing part follow? That's the key question for me. Well, the mistake was already made long time ago, I plegded the game before even trying Kingmaker, so I guess I'll about to see it myself, if Owlcat delivered a real crpg game instead of convoluted genre mix.
IMO mechanics and lore needs to be in line. Lv 4 arch druids are very nonsensical. The title of arch druid should only be bestowed upon lv 15+ druids.
This I can agree. Setting a level 10 cap for BG3 was not a great idea. Unless there is BG4 already planned.
I stand for what I wrote, though. No amount of fantastic gameplay will make the game great in my eyes if role playing and world building aspects will be neglected. This happened in Kingmaker and in even greater extent in PoE (in Kingmaker gameplay was at least well done).
I really fear Owlcat may fall into the same trap once again, seeing all those fancy features, like HoMM-style battles, riding a dinosaur, dozens of strange races and classes. The only thing that is really interesting to me are those famous mythic paths. I admit I always wanted to play a lich (and feel how to be a lich), so this might be fun.
I hope this game will be first and foremost a crpg, not a tactical kingdom simulator, with role playing elements.
If it will be amazing we'll about to see. Kingmaker supposed to be amazing too. Yeah, it wasn't... at least for me. I'm curious if Owlcat once again focused on gameplay mechanics instead of story and location design. I don't want to get yet another game that is faithful to pnp mechanics. I want a fascinating world, lively and full of memorable places and npcs, without copy&pasted maps, convoluted kingdom menagament mechanics or more of a strategy rather than rpg feeling. Your meme focuses on the gameplay aspect, which definitely is not the most important thing to me.
Yeah, I get it, game looks promising
But so was Kingmaker. There is a hope Owlcat learned his lessons, but I fear those lessons might be only concern gameplay aspects, which I'm sure will be super sharp. Will the role playing part follow? That's the key question for me. Well, the mistake was already made long time ago, I plegded the game before even trying Kingmaker, so I guess I'll about to see it myself, if Owlcat delivered a real crpg game instead of convoluted genre mix.
Playing the beta, I can tell you, that the pace of the storytelling and gameplay is far above and beyond anything I have played since early bioware games - at least for the first chapter (I think I am finishing the last dungeon of the chapter). There is a sense of urgency from the get go. The plot is lasered focus, however, certain areas are large enough to reward exploration. Fights can be challenging, but not overbearingly so. Mechanically wise, there are parts where it reminds me more of battles from SoD than anything else. There isn't an abundance of nuisance side quests that distract from the main story like POE & POE2 had, in fact, majority of the side quests I have come across tie very nicely with the main story that they compliment it, not distract from it.
The lore of the world is nicely done as well. You enrich yourself with its history through exploration more than anything else and there does seem to be some meaningful choices one must make that changes the outcome of the progression of the story.
The only flaw so far storytelling (and even game mechanic wise) is how the mythic system is implemented where there are certain parts where you have to choose one mythic path over another even if you are personally not interested in either of them. It kinda feels forced but I'd still recommend this game to any BG2 fan over any of the other isometric rpgs that have come out in the last 10 years or so.
IMO mechanics and lore needs to be in line. Lv 4 arch druids are very nonsensical. The title of arch druid should only be bestowed upon lv 15+ druids.
This I can agree. Setting a level 10 cap for BG3 was not a great idea. Unless there is BG4 already planned.
I stand for what I wrote, though. No amount of fantastic gameplay will make the game great in my eyes if role playing and world building aspects will be neglected. This happened in Kingmaker and in even greater extent in PoE (in Kingmaker gameplay was at least well done).
I really fear Owlcat may fall into the same trap once again, seeing all those fancy features, like HoMM-style battles, riding a dinosaur, dozens of strange races and classes. The only thing that is really interesting to me are those famous mythic paths. I admit I always wanted to play a lich (and feel how to be a lich), so this might be fun.
I hope this game will be first and foremost a crpg, not a tactical kingdom simulator, with role playing elements.
I can already tell you you are not going to like the game. The game improved in dialogues, roleplay, story and voice actors in general, but it still has everything you seem to hate of Kingmaker (and many people like me love) and more. it still focuses a lot into the strategic parts, the combat, the sinergy of the classes, the decisions that could make your life harder, and the combat is still hard, some decisions you make will kill you...
To summarize it.. it´s not planescape and never wanted to be. There´s story, there are characters, humor, dialogues but it´s first and foremost a pathfinder TT simulator game with lots of combat and strategy based on a campaign of the paizo tabletop, with all the good and bad that comes with it.
Well, I have to add that bg3 does not even have all the classes of 5e, and there are only 12+2... -rolleyes-
LoL with the has Asterion part.
PD: I think both games would be great on launch (i tried both betas) but what this meme shows is that they are made with very different philosophies.
Can you really compare two houses if one architect wanted to make a skyscrape and the other one planned a fancy log cabin in the woods?
I think they both will have the game they want to make, but that does not mean everybody is going to like it that way.
I'm excited for the game. I hope the story is more cohesive and interesting than Pathfinder's (which wasnt bad per se, but also wasnt great).
That said, I'll probably also be grading the story on a bit of a curve. Owlcat is not creating the story from scratch, but is using an AP that has been around for nearly 10 years to provide a lot of the beats/narrative progression. I'm sure Owlcat will have to fill in the holes and will have plenty of things to add to the game that do no exist within the framework of the AP, but I think their biggest creative input here will be akin to a director for a movie - deciding what and how to portray particular events rather than as a writer.
On some level, that will always make it hard for me to compare WoTR to any game from a CRPG studio that does more of the initial writing and story creation themselves.
Only two months to go and the final beta test is on!
Plenty of things added but some headlights I liked:
-Improved Crusade strategic game: Added moral mechanics for your soldiers.
-More dialogues and more voice acting.
-More music
-Darker UI (You are in a demon apocalypse, darker makes sense XD )
... And I have mixed feelings about this
"Changing alignment to match your Mythic Path no longer breaks classes with alignment restrictions, as you continue to gain powers from your Mythic Path"
So... paladin liches are a thing now. o.O
PD: Saves will not work and possibly mods would need to be updated so be fast to end your current playthrough
Now, all that said - the Pathfinder game system and PF:KM always felt like a game that incentivized you to powergame. So I do feel like there's an implicit contradiction of playing a game that wants you to powergame/min-max, and then playing the weaker version of something.
@Jaheiras_Witness has already addressed a lot of what I was going to say, but I would ask: where is this 'incentive to powergame' coming from? I don't feel any such incentive when I play P:Km. In fact, the very idea of "powergaming" in the context of P:Km didn't even occur to me until I read your post. Sure, everyone likes having their PC be "powerful" in some sense, but I don't necessarily see that in some objective sense. I've often mixed in levels of this or that class in seriously crazy builds just for fun of it. I also routinely use sub-optimal weapons just because I happen to like those weapons and find them "cool." So I don't see how one could say, objectively speaking, that the game system incentivizes powergaming. If anything, it incentivizes experimenting and doing crazy stuff, at the expense of powergaming.
I suppose it could come down to your opinion of the definition of powergaming - but the fact that I need to boost my AC above 50 or 60 to consistently stand in melee combat at the house at the end of time suggests that the game is expecting you to play with some serious optimization. Sure, you could *not* play that way, but I feel like you would need to cope with additional strategies (or cheese) to successfully make it through. This is assuming, among other things, a blind playthrough and a lack of walkthrough resources.
I'm sure there are crazy talented people who have speed run the final chapter woefully undergeared and underprepared, but I wouldnt point to that as an example that the game doesnt incentivize powergaming/min-maxing, just the power of meta game knowledge.
While I don't quite agree with the optimization point, I do think you hit on a serious flaw in Kingmaker, which otherwise has a very deep combat system.
A minor point first is that Valerie, while quite tanky, is unfortunately shafted with a pretty bad subclass. Literally pure fighter would be better, and would only trade off a hair of AC for much better damage output. That means you'd ultimately down threats faster, overall improving survivability.
But this hints at my larger point, which is that melee classes are under-powered in general in Kingmaker. Because one of the key "bad outcomes" from fighting is permadeath, and because monsters can wail away with huge damage scores from critical hits, you will frequently suffer perma-deaths if you're relying on melee NPC's.
However, if you instead rely on animal companions, or summons, or AoE bombing and ranged, you can largely avoid the ONE negative outcome of combat. There's a funny irony, to me, here in that many people complain about the surface spells in the Original Sin games, but surface/AoE stuff in Kingmaker is way more imbalanced, mainly because the enemy can't do much to counter strategies that rely on them. Don't get me wrong, I still love Kingmaker overall, especially its combat and the strategy of building an effective team. But man, it's probably more imbalanced towards ranged characters than even BG1 was.
A minor point first is that Valerie, while quite tanky, is unfortunately shafted with a pretty bad subclass. Literally pure fighter would be better, and would only trade off a hair of AC for much better damage output. That means you'd ultimately down threats faster, overall improving survivability.
This is true only if you're a min-maxer. Otherwise, her subclass is exactly right for her character from a roleplaying standpoint, which in my view is the only thing that truly matters with NPC companions. One can always build a mercenary min-max companion, but NPC companions are all about roleplaying. Besides, I always have her in my parties in my playthroughs, as my tank, and she's always fantastic in that role.
As to the issue of melee warriors and the severity of crit damage, yes this is very much a valid concern. And that much more so for someone like me who especially loves melee combat over all else. But the solution for me in P:Km is to turn off crit damage within the difficulty settings. And this then is also why I am now a hardcore supporter of P:Km-style devolution of difficulty settings into a mass of toggles and sliders that allow the player to customize their difficulty in very precise ways. I absolutely love this, and can longer accept anything else in a game as "normal." If an RPG doesn't allow me to customize my difficulty settings, that is now a huge negative against that game. I am so happy to see TA with Solasta, and potentially GrapeOcean with Black Geyser, going this route, and if BG3 were to do the same then that may be the big break that makes that game palatable for me.
Comments
There´s also a respec option to remade your characters and (partially) retrain your companions when you find a friendly pathfinder society trainer.
IMHO, with the difficulty options, I´m playing I find the game challenging, but manageable without min-maxing ( You cannot fully min-maxing if you want to take the companions with you anyway).
I thought the same about kingmaker until I reach the (Boy, talking about difficulty spikes) endgame and the House of the edge of time, so I hope they do not make the same mistake again.
Right now I´m focused on the skills (you have lots of interactions with the environment and NPCs) to get the most info, dialogues, etc... and I´m doing just fine taking "skill monkey" feats and backgrounds and without dropping INT or CHA.
Well, it depends on your playstyle I suppose.
If we´re talking pure power gaming here (disregarding your personal playstyle preferences, you can play whatever build you find fun) any magus outclasses 90% of the fighter-wiz builds you can make in melee combat, maximize feat and level economy and damage output, Simply because of spell combat and spellstrike. No contest
You are effectively attacking twice every round (all your usual attacks plus a spell attack) and you can deliver your touch spells with your weapon, adding an extra attack with more damage; you can use armour and casting spells without a feat, you get fighter feats like greater weapon focus, weapon specialization and metamagic feats for free at mid-levels, you can enchant any weapon you have on the spot so you always have the right tool for the job, you can use spell recall or wands for spellcombat so you seldom run out of spells, you have a full caster level, have bonuses on concentration for free, animal or familiar companion level equal to your character level without feats, ... I can go on and on and on...
Double all said above for ranged combat if you are using an Eldrich archer magus.
If you´re looking for a character with Crowd control spells and such, I understand you can find it lacking because of the reduced selection of spells, but If we´re being min-maxers here, disregarding playstyles preference, there are far better options than an MC fighter-wizard-eldritch knight to make a warrior debuffer.
I suffered once the demon corruption due to several bad rolls in religion while resting and it´s annoying.
I started a game with a kitsune mounted magus with a bite attack, a loremaster with high int, that uses a bully companion to trample over the enemies and could use the "arcane pool enhancement" with the mount too so they both charge into melee wielding scimitar and spell, because I can XD. Aaanyway, Since the magus could use wands for spellstrike and have spell recall, I rarely run out of spells. It´s cool to avoid resting too much...
So... as early as level 4 I have an arcane rider that makes 6!!! attacks per turn enhanced by magic.
Also, enhances his animal companion with the arcane pool at the same time, do not run out of spells because I use wands (25 charges each) for spell combat or the touch of fatigue cantrip that debuffs with every weapon hit, has 50ft speed riding (so I can charge from the other side of the map), does an average 30-40damage per turn at level 4 (without crits), does not have arcane spell failure with armour, has 6 skill points every level, d8hp per level, full caster level, etc.
And it´s not even a min-maxed character, he is a normal level 3 arcane rider. You do not even need to reach level 10-15 to have a balanced, strong character.
I understand magus would not be suited to some playstyles, but they´re strong in his role. I do not even understand how they managed to make Regongar so weak until he reaches the endgame.
PD: Strangely enough, you can make a dhampir with an undead horse companion, maybe I will try it next time =P
They added more specific dialogues for races, gods, mythic paths and classes, so I think trying different characters it´s worthwhile.
I was wondering if we could expect some changes in the enemies in the following chapters...and there is.
In ch4 most of the elite and bosses have magic resistance, elemental resistances AND true sight.
It seems I would have to send the illusion school to the trash bin with the entire evocation school...
Owlcat guys really hate mages, it seems
PD: It seems spell penetration, greater spell penetration, Mythic spell penetration and abundant casting would be a must for Nenio, wolfgit and Ember.
BTW, in the PF WoTR wiki they give you a huge spoiler about Nenio, I advise you to avoid it XD
https://www.rpgwatch.com/articles/pathfinder--wrath-of-the-righteous-presentation-and-qa-510.html
Yeahh. That all sounds great. I'm excited and pretty hopeful the initial product will be polished and game ready on day one. Looking forward to sinking my teeth into a new, finished CRPG sometime soon.
DLC incoming
There are twelve companions, all romanceable, and yet people on the Owlcat forum are unhappy because of course their preferred companion is not a romance option for them (gender+sexual orientation combo restrictions). And I'll include myself in that because the only available straight female doesn't strike my fancy. But at least for me, I don't really care that much since I don't really care about the romance parts of RPGs anyway unless there are some other tangible quest/roleplay benefits from pursuing the romances. But I see a mod being made very soon to allow anyone to romance any of the companions.
I remember when DA2 was released and everyone was complaining that all the romance options swung what ever the PC played.
Fast forward a decade and people are complaining that their romance option actually has preferences.
I am over romances in games. IMO, they are never done right. DA:O was close with a relationship meter, but it’s been giant steps back since then.
I am enjoying the story that WotR is telling so far, and all the companions I have met are interesting, and for the first time in a long time, I having a difficult time determining who I want to take with me and whose stories I want to experience, so if any romance keeps that up, I’ll be content enough. But I’d have to question the sanity of said romancable partner as I am playing a CN dhampir possessed shaman/magus who is going to take the lich mythic path.
I've intentionally kept myself in the dark about the companions. It's my experience that I have a pretty good idea early on if I'll like a game or not, and once I make that determination, I try to avoid spoiling too much for myself. I'm pretty sure I'm there on WotR
That said, CRPGs can be a bit different too. I usually make my character based partially upon the classes and alignment of the characters I'm most interested in. Knowing nothing about them can make that tricky (inevitably, I'll probably play a neutral-ish alignment so I dont feel bad mixing and matching, and a build that can fit into multiple parties).
Out of curiosity, are there are racial restrictions in the romances (like how BG2 wouldnt let an elf romance Viconia, IIRC).
There is some noise about there not being any/enough short people romance options.
You do not only romance your companions, you can also romance NPCs, like in DAI. I kinda liked the queen and the interactions with her and Daeran are funny.
I agree companions (and the Npcs you met) are interesting and it´s difficult to choose... but to be honest, I´m a sucker for the voice of Amelia Tyler (Nyrissa of PF:K; Maladie of Dos2, Bg3 narrator) so Wenduag will definitely be part of the group. She´s wicked tho.
Strangely enough, I´m not much into the evil party, but the evil guys are intriguing in this game.
I wonder how´s it going to be because Seelah the paladin is a must for my party =P (BTW she´s exactly how I imagine her to be for the stories in the lore of Pathfinder, Owlcat´s devs definitely know their stuff).
I´m playing a kitsune so I wonder if I could manage to get lucky in human fo rm and in werefox shape... or maybe I could make a "Two much" and take two "mates" at the same time?
PD: Nope, they know you in both shapes... bummer.
According to "leaks" I saw on another forum, you can't romance anyone as a lich or swarm that walks.
I like the idea of killing demons one joke at a time.
Talking about "Toxic" relationships...
Thanks, but please keep spoilers to a minimum or use tags. I am like @BallpointMan and stay away from majority of game leaks as possible when I choose to play a game.
On Wenduag
So far, Seelah is the only tank/meat shield I have encountered so she is a must as well. I am hoping her alignment doesn’t get in the way especially if she is the only tank (so far), but time will tell.
Sorry, new here, didn't know how to make spoilers. But, figured it out now, I believe.
There´s Regill the hellknight too... he is more tanky and tough (he is a gnome) but Seelah is a powerhouse in comparison and more an all-rounder. His alignment gives you more options, since he is Lawful evil. You find him much more later in the game than Seelah, tho.
That makes sense because of his story and because he is a hellknight, a prestige class so you need several levels to get to it. And you really need to be an experienced warrior to pass The Test and become a hellknight (You have to beat a demon in single combat) =D
He is originally an armiger fighter, that lorewise is the usual previous path to become a hellknight (You even get to choose the order of Hellknights you will join as a squire and choose hellknight feats as an armiger) so when (if) you become a hellknight you automatically become a member of that order.
[Don´t worry that is not an spoiler, it´s general knowledge about hellknights, the story of Regill and what order he belongs to; you have to ask him
Well, since he is lawful evil, not neutral nor good, I think you have a clue there]
I have not played him much besides the quest he is involved with so maybe I could be biased
A keen observer can clue in that something is amiss with her though. I almost flagged it as a bug when I was viewing character sheets.
I was spoiled when I went searching for Kaylessa, a minor NPC (so far) that one can come across in the Market Square, whose name sounded so familiar that I actually think it’s an Easter Egg to IWD, and saw something I didn’t want to see.
Yeah, it´s becoming increasingly difficult to avoid spoilers ha ha.
I could only play on weekends and I didn´t even finished the new beta content ( mythic paths and stuff) so...
The game seems amazing
Yeah, I get it, game looks promising
But so was Kingmaker. There is a hope Owlcat learned his lessons, but I fear those lessons might be only concern gameplay aspects, which I'm sure will be super sharp. Will the role playing part follow? That's the key question for me. Well, the mistake was already made long time ago, I plegded the game before even trying Kingmaker, so I guess I'll about to see it myself, if Owlcat delivered a real crpg game instead of convoluted genre mix.
IMO mechanics and lore needs to be in line. Lv 4 arch druids are very nonsensical. The title of arch druid should only be bestowed upon lv 15+ druids.
This I can agree. Setting a level 10 cap for BG3 was not a great idea. Unless there is BG4 already planned.
I stand for what I wrote, though. No amount of fantastic gameplay will make the game great in my eyes if role playing and world building aspects will be neglected. This happened in Kingmaker and in even greater extent in PoE (in Kingmaker gameplay was at least well done).
I really fear Owlcat may fall into the same trap once again, seeing all those fancy features, like HoMM-style battles, riding a dinosaur, dozens of strange races and classes. The only thing that is really interesting to me are those famous mythic paths. I admit I always wanted to play a lich (and feel how to be a lich), so this might be fun.
I hope this game will be first and foremost a crpg, not a tactical kingdom simulator, with role playing elements.
Playing the beta, I can tell you, that the pace of the storytelling and gameplay is far above and beyond anything I have played since early bioware games - at least for the first chapter (I think I am finishing the last dungeon of the chapter). There is a sense of urgency from the get go. The plot is lasered focus, however, certain areas are large enough to reward exploration. Fights can be challenging, but not overbearingly so. Mechanically wise, there are parts where it reminds me more of battles from SoD than anything else. There isn't an abundance of nuisance side quests that distract from the main story like POE & POE2 had, in fact, majority of the side quests I have come across tie very nicely with the main story that they compliment it, not distract from it.
The lore of the world is nicely done as well. You enrich yourself with its history through exploration more than anything else and there does seem to be some meaningful choices one must make that changes the outcome of the progression of the story.
The only flaw so far storytelling (and even game mechanic wise) is how the mythic system is implemented where there are certain parts where you have to choose one mythic path over another even if you are personally not interested in either of them. It kinda feels forced but I'd still recommend this game to any BG2 fan over any of the other isometric rpgs that have come out in the last 10 years or so.
I can already tell you you are not going to like the game. The game improved in dialogues, roleplay, story and voice actors in general, but it still has everything you seem to hate of Kingmaker (and many people like me love) and more. it still focuses a lot into the strategic parts, the combat, the sinergy of the classes, the decisions that could make your life harder, and the combat is still hard, some decisions you make will kill you...
To summarize it.. it´s not planescape and never wanted to be. There´s story, there are characters, humor, dialogues but it´s first and foremost a pathfinder TT simulator game with lots of combat and strategy based on a campaign of the paizo tabletop, with all the good and bad that comes with it.
I love the meme XD
Well, I have to add that bg3 does not even have all the classes of 5e, and there are only 12+2... -rolleyes-
LoL with the has Asterion part.
PD: I think both games would be great on launch (i tried both betas) but what this meme shows is that they are made with very different philosophies.
Can you really compare two houses if one architect wanted to make a skyscrape and the other one planned a fancy log cabin in the woods?
I think they both will have the game they want to make, but that does not mean everybody is going to like it that way.
That said, I'll probably also be grading the story on a bit of a curve. Owlcat is not creating the story from scratch, but is using an AP that has been around for nearly 10 years to provide a lot of the beats/narrative progression. I'm sure Owlcat will have to fill in the holes and will have plenty of things to add to the game that do no exist within the framework of the AP, but I think their biggest creative input here will be akin to a director for a movie - deciding what and how to portray particular events rather than as a writer.
On some level, that will always make it hard for me to compare WoTR to any game from a CRPG studio that does more of the initial writing and story creation themselves.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/owlcatgames/pathfinder-wrath-of-the-righteous/posts/3247441
https://steamcommunity.com/games/1184370/announcements/detail/4388179026217548326
Only two months to go and the final beta test is on!
Plenty of things added but some headlights I liked:
-Improved Crusade strategic game: Added moral mechanics for your soldiers.
-More dialogues and more voice acting.
-More music
-Darker UI (You are in a demon apocalypse, darker makes sense XD )
... And I have mixed feelings about this
"Changing alignment to match your Mythic Path no longer breaks classes with alignment restrictions, as you continue to gain powers from your Mythic Path"
So... paladin liches are a thing now. o.O
PD: Saves will not work and possibly mods would need to be updated so be fast to end your current playthrough
While I don't quite agree with the optimization point, I do think you hit on a serious flaw in Kingmaker, which otherwise has a very deep combat system.
A minor point first is that Valerie, while quite tanky, is unfortunately shafted with a pretty bad subclass. Literally pure fighter would be better, and would only trade off a hair of AC for much better damage output. That means you'd ultimately down threats faster, overall improving survivability.
But this hints at my larger point, which is that melee classes are under-powered in general in Kingmaker. Because one of the key "bad outcomes" from fighting is permadeath, and because monsters can wail away with huge damage scores from critical hits, you will frequently suffer perma-deaths if you're relying on melee NPC's.
However, if you instead rely on animal companions, or summons, or AoE bombing and ranged, you can largely avoid the ONE negative outcome of combat. There's a funny irony, to me, here in that many people complain about the surface spells in the Original Sin games, but surface/AoE stuff in Kingmaker is way more imbalanced, mainly because the enemy can't do much to counter strategies that rely on them. Don't get me wrong, I still love Kingmaker overall, especially its combat and the strategy of building an effective team. But man, it's probably more imbalanced towards ranged characters than even BG1 was.