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Is Rasaad Going To Suck?

Having BGTuTu installed I'm able to roll up a monk in the first game and frankly level 1 monks are TERRIBLE! If Rasaad has an 18 strength and 18 dexterity with at least 16 Constitution he'll be at peak performance for a level 1 monk but he'll still totally suck. I seriously doubt that overhaul will give him these stats as it seems a little excessive but if they do he'll have a whopping 5 AC with 10 hit points and a THAC0 of 19 with his fists with 1 attack per round. He'll actually be worse at fighting than a level 1 thief with the same stats wearing studded leather armor (the thief would have 3 AC). I forsee Rasaad needing to be constantly babysat to make sure he doesn't die in just about every combat particularly since he will move faster than the other characters and thus close to melee faster having all enemies target him first.

What do you think overhaul is going to do to compensate for the weakness of the monk class at the lower levels? I'm hoping they will start him with a pair of bracers bringing his AC more in line with the rest of the NPC's. A friend of mine suggests giving him a sling and sitting him in the back but this is dependant on whether or not he'll have proficiency. Also, having a monk sitting in the backfield using a sling kind of defeats the purpose of the class, doesn't it? You could do the same with a thief but be able to backstab, or pick pocket, or do any number of useful thief abilities aswell. Does anyone else have any ideas of how to make Rasaad a useful addition to the group?
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Comments

  • MechaliburMechalibur Member Posts: 265
    I'm going to guess he has special equipment or special abilities.

    Or failing that, interesting dialogue?
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Monks are always awful at the beginning of the game. As they grow stronger, they become absolutely brutal-that's just the way they are. Rasaad will probably be hard to play with at first, but he won't stay that way.
  • MenthroMenthro Member Posts: 85
    If I remember right, playing a mid level monk in SoA was game breaking for me in terms of power that it brought to the table. Monks are one of those classes you need to nurse along for a bit, but then start wiping the floor with whatever you are fighting.
  • sebassebas Member Posts: 56
    Without special items or abilities, yes he will suck: melee fighter with no armor or protective spells.

    @Tome

    No, he will throughout BG1. Monks only really start to shine after level 13 or so.
  • ShinShin Member Posts: 2,345
    Don't know if I'd call them game breaking, especially not when compared to combinations like kensai/mage (or late-game single class mages/sorcerers or carsomyr-wielding paladins), but they're certainly able to hold their own.
  • DeathMachineMiyagiDeathMachineMiyagi Member Posts: 120
    edited November 2012
    Tome said:

    Monks are always awful at the beginning of the game. As they grow stronger, they become absolutely brutal-that's just the way they are. Rasaad will probably be hard to play with at first, but he won't stay that way.

    Part of the reason I never play them. I don't see the appeal in a class that lurches from utterly horrible to gamebreakingly powerful. Neither extreme is all that fun.

  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    @Tome Sadly the monk wont reach its full potential (or come anywhere near it really) in BG:EE since I'm fairly certain the max level for a monk will be 8 with the 161000 XP cap.

    He'll be 1 level shy of having his unarmed attacks counting as +1 for overcoming damage reduction. So things like Werewolves (the whole werewolf island will be brutal for Rasaad), or Vampiric wolves or any number of creatures immune to nonmagical weapons will be invulnerable to Rasaad. I guess he'll have to keep a magic longsword around to try and deal with these foes, but even then he'll be fighting like a gimped Thief.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I think it would be challenging to have Raasad instead of additional fighter, due to reasons mentioned above. However, as I recall, there will be new items introduced in BG:EE, some class-specific. Meaning that potentialy, Raasad could be not as weak as we are predicting.
  • DinoDino Member Posts: 291
    edited November 2012
    I dont think there are any gay romances available. Might be wrong tho! ^^
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607

    I think it would be challenging to have Raasad instead of additional fighter, due to reasons mentioned above. However, as I recall, there will be new items introduced in BG:EE, some class-specific. Meaning that potentialy, Raasad could be not as weak as we are predicting.

    I hope that this is the case. Otherwise the addition of Rasaad will lose its novelty after a single playthrough. You'll get a chance to see what he's about, hear his banters and whatnot, and then shelf him for the rest of your playthroughs since he'll be among the very worst NPCs to choose from.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    Part of the reason I never play them. I don't see the appeal in a class that lurches from utterly horrible to gamebreakingly powerful. Neither extreme is all that fun.

    Same. I'm going to give Rasaad a shot but yeah, Monks are indeed a silly class.
    Dino said:

    I dont think there are any gay romances available. Might be wrong tho! ^^

    Yeah, either Dorn or Rasaad are going to be bisexual. We dunno which one yet.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012
    I too once tried playing a Monk in BG1 via Tutu and it was pure suckage. I'll be fascinated to see how they make him work.

    Here's what the new manual states re: monks:

    Monk

    Monks are warriors who pursue perfection through contemplation as well as action. They are versatile fighters, especially skilled in combat without weapons or armor. Though Monks cannot cast spells, they have a unique magic of their own. They channel a subtle energy called ki, which allows them to perform amazing feats. The Monk’s best known feat is the ability to stun an opponent with an unarmed blow.

    Advantages:

     Moves 2 points faster than normal. Movement rate further improves by 1 every 5 levels.
     May make 1 unarmed attack per round. An additional 1/2 attack per round is gained every 3 levels.

    Damage dealt by unarmed attacks increases with level as follows:

    o Level 1-2: 1d6
    o Level 3-5: 1d8
    o Level 6-8: 1d10
    o Level 9-14: 1d12
    o Level 15+: 1d20

     At level 9, the Monk’s fists are treated as a +1 magical weapon and gain a +1 bonus to hit and damage rolls. This enchantment improves to +2 at level 12, +3 at level 15, and +4 at level 20.
     Receives a +2 bonus to save vs. spell.
     Deflect Missiles: +1 bonus to AC vs. missile attacks every 3 levels.
     3% magic resistance per level starting at 14th level (that is, 42% at 14th level).
     Starts with an Armor Class of 9 at 1st level and gains an additional +1 bonus every 2 levels.
     May use Stunning Blow ability once per day every 4 levels.

    o STUNNING BLOW: All successful attacks within the next 6 seconds force the victim to save or be stunned. This special ability automatically modifies normal attacks; no targeting needs to be
    done.

     5th level: Becomes immune to all diseases and cannot be slowed or hasted.
     7th level: May use Lay on Hands ability to heal 2 hit points per level.
     8th level: Gains -1 to speed factor.
     9th level: Gains a +1 bonus to all saving throws and becomes immune to charm.
     11th level: Becomes immune to poison.
     12th level: Gains another -1 to speed factor.
     13th level: May use the Quivering Palm ability once per day.

    o QUIVERING PALM: The next successful unarmed attack forces the opponent to save or die. This special ability automatically modifies normal attacks; no targeting needs to be done.

     20th level: Becomes immune to non-magical weapons.
     Hit Die: d8

    Disadvantages:

     May not wear any armor.
     May only use weapons available to the Thief class (except twohanded).

    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    edited November 2012
    I have the same problem with both Rasaad and Neera from a simple strategic perspective. I'll probably play with them eventually just to see what their character stories are like, but they're both going to have to be babysat and will add nothing to the party that somebody else couldn't do a lot better. (And, there's a whole thread or two already with this issue about Neera, and I know a lot of people think wild mages are great, so there's no need to rehash all that here.)

    Interestingly and humorously, in all those snippets of action from the new trailer, watch Rasaad's portrait. He goes red, red, red down to about one hit point in every shot, while the other character portraits of normally-powered characters stay mostly untouched.

    I think that any party with Rasaad is going to have to get used to him dying a lot, and carrying his body around and raising him, unless he is made to run from pretty much every battle. And, the lack of any magical attacks for the whole game makes the problem even worse.

    I'm sorry, I hate to be all Xan about this, but the new npc's are not the reason I support this project.

    There you have my two cents, which I have expressed several times in other threads, so, I don't want to argue about it with anybody or anything, but, I will read other people's opinions with interest.

    EDIT: I just thought of a really funny running joke that is going to be totally doable as a theme with Rasaad, and I anticipate many threads that are variations on the funny theme. This boy is going to be analogous to "Kenny" from "South Park".

    Wolf: to hit roll, 5, hit; Wolf does 10 damage, Rasaad, dead. "You bastard, you killed Rasaad!"
    Bassilus: to hit roll, 2, hit; Bassilus does 20 damage, Rasaad, dead. "You bastard, you killed Rasaad!"
    Mulahey: to hit roll, 2, hit; Mulahey does 20 damage, Rasaad, dead. "You bastard, you killed Rasaad!"
    Tranzig: cast Magic Missile, Rasaad, dead. "You bastard, you killed Rasaad!"
    Vampire Wolf: to hit roll, 2, hit; Vampire Wolf does 4 damage; Rasaad: to hit roll 10, hit. Rasaad: "My weapon has no effect!" Vampire Wolf, to hit roll, 4, hit. Rasaad, paralyzed. Vampire Wolf, to hit roll, 6, hit. Rasaad, dead. "You bastard, you killed Rasaad!"

    And on and on.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited November 2012
    @belgarathmth: To be fair, that doesn't sound any different from mage strategies, especially when it comes to PCs - I spent most of BG1 throwing fighters at enemies while my PC sorceress ran and hid. That made it all the more gratifying in the later stages of the game when she could finally stand her ground and deliver punishment of her own. :)
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    For all you know you won't run into Rassad until you are level 3 or 4. Not that that makes a huge difference ,but maybe he will have items to mitigate his problems (as others have suggested).
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,653
    @shawne, the huge difference, is that mages stay the heck out of combat and use ranged weapons and spells. Monks are supposed to be front-line melee combatants, and as such, are going to take A LOT of hits and become very attractive spell targets. Those tatoos might as well be bullseyes.
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    I've run a Monk before using BGT.

    Yes, they are weak in BG1 even if you roll with a 18 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON PC, but they're not hopeless. What I did was let a beefier NPC become the main target of enemies and then mico-managed my Monk around the front lines.
  • SedSed Member Posts: 790
    @Lemernis

    You missed a thing in your post.
    Lemernis said:


    Monk

     May not wear armor heavier than leather.
     Incurs a -2 penalty to Strength and Constitution.

    Monks are warriors who pursue perfection through contemplation as well as action. They are versatile fighters, especially skilled in combat without weapons or armor. Though Monks cannot cast spells, they have a unique magic of their own. They channel a subtle energy called ki, which allows them to perform amazing feats. The Monk’s best known feat is the ability to stun an opponent with an unarmed blow.

    The first two points are not for the monk, but for the Avenger druid (text block before monk in the manual).
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Hehehe~ "on my wild mage and monk..."
    Reminds me of The Hobbit. "Stay! Your wish is granted! Here is Gandalf! And none too soon it seems. If you don't like my Burglar, please don't damage him. Put him down, and listen first to what he has to say!"

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012
    @Sed Thanks, fixed it.
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607

    I've bet the game with the overpowered characters enough times. I don't care if Rasaad and Neera are not OP. I don't need OP characters to beat this game. Having to keep close watch on my wild mage and monk will be a fun challenge.

    I'm not asking that every NPC be OP but without some fairly powerful magic items and finding him at a much later level (never a huge fan of having to wait for a third of the game to recruit a desired NPC) Rasaad will be grossly underpowered. I mean Garrick is a pretty crappy NPC but he can still function at his role, standing in the backfield firing a ranged weapon and slinging spells and using wands. Rasaad wont be able to function (with any semblance of efficiency) at his role, being a melee combatant when he's rocking mage AC and terrible to hit and damage. Maybe I'll be wrong and they'll give him some nifty items to boost his fighting abilities, I certainly hope so. I'm really looking forwards to playing with all the new NPC's and it will be a bit of a let down if one of them is incredibly terrible.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited November 2012
    I'll be very surprised if Beamdog risks it's first shot at impressing fans with an unmitigated turd of an NPC--combat-wise, that is. They must have done something for him.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Naturally-low AC, perhaps? It wouldn't matter how frail he is if he can dodge blows...
  • AlexDeLargeAlexDeLarge Member Posts: 273
    Even if he is weaker than average, i do hope they compensate this by having him playable in Bg2 as well, so u can reap the rewards of putting up with a weakling in vanilla and then see him eventually flourish into a powerhouse.
  • NadroirNadroir Member Posts: 50
    Lemernis said:

    I'll be very surprised if Beamdog risks it's first shot at impressing fans with an unmitigated turd of an NPC--combat-wise, that is. They must have done something for him.

    This is certainly true. Although, it might be nice to have a class that sucks at first before becoming awesome. They could just put a warning on monks similar to the katana warning in BG2.

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