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No Grandmastery?

MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
According to: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts fighters only get 2 more proficiency points before they hit the xp cap. This means that the max you can get in the proficiency is 4 out of 5. Is this right?

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Comments

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438

    According to: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts fighters only get 2 more proficiency points before they hit the xp cap. This means that the max you can get in the proficiency is 4 out of 5. Is this right?

    Unfortunately, yes.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,850
    edited December 2012
    Yes sir, High Mastery is all you can get in BG1.

    When you look at tables, it's pretty clear that you're best off putting 3 pips in your melee weapon of choice and 3 pips in your ranged weapon of choice.

    SCARY_WIZARD
  • RezonRezon Member Posts: 13
    archars also cant gain grand mastery in bows?

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I dont like this one bit either.

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    Of course you can just use shadowkeeper, or BG Tweaks mods to overcome this.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Quartz said:

    Yes sir, High Mastery is all you can get in BG1.

    When you look at tables, it's pretty clear that you're best off putting 3 pips in your melee weapon of choice and 3 pips in your ranged weapon of choice.

    No necessarily, you may want to put some pips into a weapon style instead of a ranged weapon or maybe only one pip into a ranged weapon, if you're moslty on the front line

    SwordsNotWords
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited December 2012
    Mungri said:

    I dont like this one bit either.

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    Of course you can just use shadowkeeper, or BG Tweaks mods to overcome this.

    I think its more realistic the way it currently is (which is how is was in BG1), a level 1 character shouldn't be able to start off with his skills almost maxed, this should require "real-wordl" experience.

    Also, with the "new" Grandmastery table, this would unbalance the game (at least early on) even more strongly in favour of fighters - I prefer more of a challenge

    The_New_RomanceDiscoCatleyshjonoe
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    Mungri said:

    I dont like this one bit either.

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    Of course you can just use shadowkeeper, or BG Tweaks mods to overcome this.

    That's a BIG balancing issue though. Imagine a Half-Orc with 19 strength and High Mastery in a weapon of choice right on level 1! Not only will you do abnormal damage (even more so if you happen to be a Berserker) but you'll also be able to hit about 90% of the monsters early on.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,850
    Mungri said:

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    To Archers: Agreed.

    To Fighters: Disagree.

    It's actually a rule from tabletop DnD that Fighters can't go beyond Specialize upon character generation, they are only allowed to go further upon .

    LordsDarkKnight185
  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    @aXidal you clever kid! Thank you for that information.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Quartz said:

    Mungri said:

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    To Archers: Agreed.

    To Fighters: Disagree.

    It's actually a rule from tabletop DnD that Fighters can't go beyond Specialize upon character generation, they are only allowed to go further upon .
    I dont care much about tabletop DnD if it worsens the enjoyment of a video game.

  • aXidalaXidal Member Posts: 61
    edited December 2012
    Actually, it is also possible as fighter/mage, although a little bit complicated.

    The trick is: level your fighter up to level 6, then dual-class to mage. However, when you hit level 6 as mage, don't level up, instead wait until you have amassed 60k xp, and then level up. Since level 7 is enough to regain your fighter abilities, you can then place your proficiency from level 6 on top of your fighter ones.

    ryuken87FFGRAM021
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited December 2012
    oooooh, banking level 6 mage like that would have helped my Swashbuckler / Mage immensely instead of having to walk around without any weapon proficiencies after dual classing:

    Level 1 Swash - * Shortbow, * Quarterstaff
    Level 4 Swash - ** Quarterstaff
    Level 6 Swash - Dual class to mage
    Level 1 Mage - * Dart
    Level 7 mage (after banking level 6) - * Two Handed Weapon Style

    Rather than having to install weapon styles for all classes and taking Two hander style during my mage levels! /Doh.

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,825
    I thought they got rid of the ability that allowed fighters who dualed to reach grand mastery in BG1.

    As it stands, you're technically not supposed to be able to go above specialized (unless you had already reached that point previously) after you dual out of fighter, similar to multi-class.

    Example:

    You're level 6 fighter has High Mastery in Warhammers when he duals cleric.

    He cannot gain grand mastery in Warhammers, although he still benefits from high mastery once he recovers his levels, but on the same token he shouldn't be allowed to go beyond specialized in something like maces or flails.

    jolly_bb
  • aXidalaXidal Member Posts: 61
    @Dragonspear
    Oh I see, that's sad if you're right. I have actually been able to test this in BGEE, just in Tutu (where I have cheats enabled), I do hope you're wrong though.

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,825
    @aXidal

    Honestly, it was a bug introduced with the BG2 engine. I had never even known that you could give someone like Anomen grand mastery, so he just had a ton of weapons at specialized in the game I used him. I only found out about the dual classing bugs once I started frequenting these forums.

  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    Grandmasters are the pinnacle of weapon skill, the master swordsmen and archers that never miss and mighty staff-swingers and that sort of people. These are naturally always very experienced and powerful adventurers, because you don't get to be a master swordsman by hitting the fence back home: you gotta kill a few live targets for that. If we assume level 20 to be the apex for common man, and anything beyond that to be for truly epic heroes, then in my opinion level 8 wouldn't quite cut it, now would it? Starting your adventure as a high master, only a bit below the grandmaster, would be even more absurd.

    This follows the 2nd edition rules, too: you can only specialize at first level, and weapon mastery and high mastery and grandmastery and the sort come only later.

    Just wait until Baldur's Gate 2. That's when you get to do all your epic stuff and become the master swordsman you hoped to be.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Ooooh, even better for my Swash / Mage ...

    Level 1 - * Scimitar, *Shortbow
    Level 4 - * Two Handed Weapon Style
    Level 6 - Dual class to mage
    Level 1 Mage - * Quarterstaff
    Level 7 mage (after banking level 6) - ** Quarterstaff

    Then after that, you still eventually get enough proficiency points from the remaining mage levels to get 2 points in Scimitars and 3 points in Two Weapon Fighting.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @aXidal

    Honestly, it was a bug introduced with the BG2 engine. I had never even known that you could give someone like Anomen grand mastery, so he just had a ton of weapons at specialized in the game I used him. I only found out about the dual classing bugs once I started frequenting these forums.

    I don't think it was a bug in BG2, in BG2 your character is not level 1, so they allowed more flexibility in distributing proficiencies

  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,825
    @Oxford_Guy

    The bug was that once someone had already dual classed out of fighter (in this case Anomen, who by the time you get him is already a cleric), they were still able to get Mastery/High Mastery/Grand Mastery in weapons. The way Dual-class is supposed to work is that your weapon proficiency is capped after you dual class out of fighter.

    As I explained earlier:
    If you dual class and have already achieved Mastery, High Mastery or Grand Mastery with a weapon, then you regain those bonuses once you have reactivated your fighter abilities. If you have not, as is the case with Anomen who is no more than specialized in anything, you should not be able to progress to those once you are no longer a fighter.

    Weapon proficiency worked properly like this when you dual classed in BG1, but in BG2 when they changed the engine this bug crept in.

    Oxford_Guyjolly_bb
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,850
    Mungri said:

    Quartz said:

    Mungri said:

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    To Archers: Agreed.

    To Fighters: Disagree.

    It's actually a rule from tabletop DnD that Fighters can't go beyond Specialize upon character generation, they are only allowed to go further upon .
    I dont care much about tabletop DnD if it worsens the enjoyment of a video game.
    My goodness @Mungri, why do I even bother stating my opinion around you? All you ever say is something along the lines of "I don't care." So boring.

    sazalandRAM021
  • BlaveBlave Member Posts: 38
    Ok, I don't know about it being a bug or not, but I can confirm that, yes, you can go up to grand mastery after you get your fighter levels back. Just checked it in the game with a figher dual-classed to Druid, Rogue and Cleric. I assume the "save a level to reach grand mastery with a Fighter>Mage" works, too.

    To be honest, I think any fighter (dual- or Multiclass) should be able to reach at least Mastery. Grand Mastery is a bit much within the XP-Cap of BG1, though. Should be fine in the Black Pits, however, but that has an XP-cap of 500.000.

    Dragonspear
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,825
    @Blave

    I agree that multi's should be able to, but not duals. Anyway that's this is another age old forum argument that occurs every few weeks or so.

    Thanks for the confirmation that it works. Insightful to you Sir.

    jolly_bb
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Quartz said:

    Mungri said:

    Quartz said:

    Mungri said:

    You should be able to distribute proficiency points wherever you like on character creation, being capped to two in any weapon type shouldnt apply to fighters or archers.

    To Archers: Agreed.

    To Fighters: Disagree.

    It's actually a rule from tabletop DnD that Fighters can't go beyond Specialize upon character generation, they are only allowed to go further upon .
    I dont care much about tabletop DnD if it worsens the enjoyment of a video game.
    My goodness @Mungri, why do I even bother stating my opinion around you? All you ever say is something along the lines of "I don't care." So boring.


    I said more than just 'I dont care', I said I dont care about things if they make the game worse / less enjoyable.

    How many things that were present in PnP were left out of BG1? There are far many more significant things ommitted for the reason of making the game more fun to play hence I dont see PnP rules as being a significant factor for how a video game based upon them has to be.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @Oxford_Guy

    The bug was that once someone had already dual classed out of fighter (in this case Anomen, who by the time you get him is already a cleric), they were still able to get Mastery/High Mastery/Grand Mastery in weapons. The way Dual-class is supposed to work is that your weapon proficiency is capped after you dual class out of fighter.

    Ah yes, that's a bug, and a VERY overpowered one at that...


    As I explained earlier:
    If you dual class and have already achieved Mastery, High Mastery or Grand Mastery with a weapon, then you regain those bonuses once you have reactivated your fighter abilities. If you have not, as is the case with Anomen who is no more than specialized in anything, you should not be able to progress to those once you are no longer a fighter.

    Weapon proficiency worked properly like this when you dual classed in BG1, but in BG2 when they changed the engine this bug crept in.

  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    I don't agree that your opinion on how dual classing is meant to work is a bug, rather its just something that you don't personally like.

    RAM021
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    Which style grandmastery was ultimately implemented? BG1 or BG2? Thanks! (I know this has been covered before but seems useful for this thread and my limited time online right now!)

  • DinsdalePiranhaDinsdalePiranha Member Posts: 419
    AHF said:

    Which style grandmastery was ultimately implemented? BG1 or BG2? Thanks! (I know this has been covered before but seems useful for this thread and my limited time online right now!)

    BG1, unnerfed version.

    elminster
  • hzfhzf Member Posts: 70
    You can get grandmastery but you will lose the level 7 fighter attack bonus.

    Human Fighter level 1: sword ++ bow ++
    Level 3: Sword +++
    Dual to thief, Dagger + single weapon +
    Level 4: Sword ++++
    Level 8: Sword +++++

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