Hasn't this issue been quasi addressed? I thought I read somewhere about "Adventure Y" (or it could have been X) that would be designed to bridge the two games? I was under the impression that it would be an added adventure that would explain why you were captured and why the "canon" characters are with you instead of whoever you had previously.
I always played it off as BG1 ends I go exploring Jaheria pops out of the woods to lecture me and then *BAM!* Irenicus ambushes us and takes us off to his lair.
I mean you do have options in BG2 to tell the "canon" characters to take a hike so the possibility of them not being in your party previously certainly exists
I dont know if anyone suggested idea, that I have in mind. The best solution to solve this plot hole imho would be to put in prison only default party members, Minsc and Jaheira, BUT ONLY if they were in your party at the end of BG1. Imoen would be exception, but little dialogue changes would solve this problem to. For example, if your party was: - Viconia, Edwin, Kagain, Branwen and Minsc ( Imoen killed by youin BG1) - you find all party members as they were in BG2 and only Minsc is in dungeon, no Jaheira. It is obvious that after BG1 some party members walked their own way. So imagine that Minsc was the only one that stayed with you, meanwhile Jaheira would be found elsewhere in the world, with modified dialogue about Khalid being killed by something. And Imoen, killed by you in BG1, she would only have different dialogues about miraculously avoiding death, following you, trying to take revenge or something and being captured by Irenicus like you. Other example: - Dynaheir, Khalid, Ajantis, Yeslick, and Coran (Imoen not being in your party) - once again you find all party members as they were in BG2, but you get dialogue from Imoen about following you because she always wanted to be part of your party, so she also got caught, bla, bla, bla, you know the rest. Also, she gives you dialogue about Dynaheir and Khalid being killed by Irenicus.
I hope you get the point, without touching all party members, you only need to make alternative start for Minsc and Jaheira, and coulple of dialogue options depending on your squad at the end of BG1. I think it would be best way, and it wouldnt be so hard to implement, if game engine allows something like this, of course.
Realistically, if you want to see characters from BG1 return in BG2, you are going to have to accept a certain amount of hand waving with respect to why the scenario the writers created seems to differ from your particular play through. The fact of the matter is that there are plot holes because the writers don't know how your particular adventure went, and the number of permutations is too great to account for all of the possibilities, so they just say that you end up traveling with Khalid, Jaheira, Imoen, Minsc and Dynaheir, which is probably right more often than any other particular combination of people you may have traveled with.
If you have one, you can use your imagination to invent a reason why you ended up with those six companions, given what happened to you when you played BG1, but it is unreasonable to expect writers to account for what they couldn't possibly know about. It's not like writing a sequel to a movie where the story happens exactly the same way every time everyone watches it, and writers have a hard enough time avoiding retconning and plot holes even then.
And that contract thing where they can't change it at all is total bs... I mean do these NPCs even appear anywhere else in the Forgotten Realms universe? Is WotC even using them at all anywhere? If not, what the hell does it matter if their stories vary from playthrough to playthrough?
BS or not, a contract is a contract is a contract.
@PlasticGolem That's lazy writing IMO, how can an sequel of the RPG genre be ok with totally blowing off what you did or did not do in the first game? It's unacceptable, it makes playing with a party of your choosing completely invalid, null and void.
These days, you're absolutely right in that a sequel should take into account your choices in the first game.
However, this is not a modern game. It's a game that was made fifteen years ago, when the assumption was that players would play a certain way, and if they deviated from that then it was their own decision to make (see also, "guards attack you every time you enter a city if your reputation is 1" as evidence that the game doesn't want you to be evil).
Would I rather it be more dynamic? Sure. But as it stands, the characters are so strong and fleshed out that I wouldn't want to mess with it. Minor tweaks to dialogue or adding new conversations and banters I'm fine with, but completely changing a character's (frankly, quite awesome) story arc? No thank you.
Write a prologue that justifies why you're there with Minsc and Jaheira (and Khalid and Dynaheir), and that will solve any problems with plot holes. It's called "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition", not "Baldur's Gate: Director's Cut".
For legal reasons, it can't be as we'd all like, regardless of difficulty. Calling it BS won't change the legal status. Calling Overhaul lazy won't change the legal status. Your options will be: mods or imagination, pick one. This is a major issue that has been brought up several times though, so possibly/hopefully they'll be able to do something like the different prologue idea.
It'll be enhanced as BG:EE was. Bug fixes, maybe new NPCs, probably the three in BG:EE will be in 2. Probably there'll be a sequel or some equivalent to Black Pits. Enhanced multiplayer? Enhanced moddability? Maybe new kits, races/subraces? Who knows? I dunno, this stuff seems really self-evident to me.
I don't understand how you do consider BG:EE to have been enhanced, as nothing as major as what you're asking for has been changed in it, but BG2:EE can't possibly be considered to be enhanced unless they do this one specific thing for you? There are a ton of things they can do to enhance it. And you're being very short with people who understand this and are trying to explain it to you. I agree with how annoying the plotholes are, but they're not overhaul's fault nor people who disagree with you in this thread. Rage at the original production of the game or those who hold the legal rights, for what good it'll do you. Maybe the prologue idea.
@Aosaw So the choices I make really make no difference, and whether I'm good or evil and no matter what party members I killed and chose to take throughout all of BG1, what really happened was you were a good guy/gal who traveled with Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid, Jaheria, and Imoen and anything that deviates from that well... too bad folks cuz it just never really happened sorry.
I was actually thinking about this the other day and thinking how you would be able to get the canon party together before the beginning of BG2.
A stand alone mod can be added to the end of BG1, in which after leaving an area "YOU ARE WAY LAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF"
Those enemies are the missing canon party members and an ensuing dialog. For example if you picked up Edwin to kill Dyn & Minsc, the latter would be there to seek revenge on you and the Red Wizard.
Or if you fed Khalid to a bear, he'd show up after tracking his estranged wife down and a happy reunion would take place.
Happy or Hostile dialog will always end the same way, cloaked figures jumping from the darkness ripping the two parties apart and taking 4(5) BG2 characters captive for experiments.
There would be a lot of different scenarios to address and it would be heavier RP than the rest of the game, but it would fill in all plot wholes except for people who got chunked and my response to that, is you might of been playing on CORE, but the default is normal.
@KryptBeowulf Remember that Baldur's Gate is fourteen years old. Baldur's Gate 2 is twelve. I don't know if it was lazy writing in the first place, but it's entirely possible that back then there were technical limitations on what could feasibly transfer over. Or it could have been time constraints. Or it could have been money constraints. As has been pointed out, it takes a lot of time, and therefore money, to write all of these different scenarios in for very little gain. You seem to have this opinion that because a feature doesn't exist, it must be because the developers were lazy. In my experience, developers would prefer to work on a game until it's absolutely perfect in every single way, but they can't because that is not realistic.
@KryptBeowulf Pretty much, yeah. It's the way it was in the original games, and people accepted it as being "just one of those things". If you want to see it changed, talk to the modding community. But I think you'll find it's a more ambitious project than you think.
Well that's too bad, to me it kinda breaks the back of the whole storyline and the RPG experience. I'll still play it cuz its a fun game but, that's how I feel.
How about I beat the first game, don't import it for 20 years, and then complain that my character isn't in his thirties with four kids sitting in Irenicus' dungeon.
They should absoloutely not make changes to the core of the existing storyline, especially a part so integral as the introduction.
Krypt, you should just accept that you're not really supposed to know what happened between BG1 and BG2. That is the writers' artistic license, and if you just let anyone with an opinion change it, that sets a bad precendent. There are all kinds of reasons those mix of characters could be in there, it's not worth Overhaul losing the license just because you can't use your imagination a bit.
I remember joking with a couple of characters in BG2 about having killed them before, and little details like whether they got chunked or not were irrelevant, because it seemed like a long time ago and the Forgotten Realms is a world chock with possibilities for them coming back.
So the choices I make really make no difference, and whether I'm good or evil and no matter what party members I killed and chose to take throughout all of BG1, what really happened was you were a good guy/gal who traveled with Minsc, Dynaheir, Khalid, Jaheria, and Imoen and anything that deviates from that well... too bad folks cuz it just never really happened sorry.
I guess I'm a jerk for asking way too much, which others have asked for as well.
They cant change who you have with you in irenicus's dungeon because they cant change game content from the original, I guess they could have you find one other NPC's in the dungeon, maybe Neera is being held elsewhere within the dungeon, but I doubt that's what they will do. What they will most limely do is have the three new npc's in this game in the copper cornet or something. They also can not make NPCs from the first game that appear in the second recruit able if they wernt already. Letting you recruit Xzar or Montoran would be changing game content. They might be able to make someone like Yeslick or Brawen recruitable because as from what I remember they never appear in the second game, but tiax, Garrick,Quayle, Xzar, Montaron, Coran, Safana, or Ajantis cant appear because they are all already in the second game.
No, it doesn't make sense. This is a video game, not your personal fan fiction. Leaving aside the fact that has been stated over, and over, and over that Overhaul IS NOT ALLOWED to make those kind of changes to the game, it is simply ridiculous to expect the amount of work involved. In Irenicus dungeon there are specific interactions and dialogue involving multiple party members. In BG1 there are 28 npcs available for a party. Even if all 28 were playable in BG2, which (spoilers) they won't be because (again) they are NOT ALLOWED to make those kind of changes to the game, with 5 party slots those 28 npcs mean 98,280 possible combinations. Even if they had super-flexible magic code, that all they had to do was type in some new dialogue lines, say 10 minutes work, that's over 16 thousand hours of work. You gonna pay that overtime?? Look, it's great that you are invested in your party and your own personal storyline. But some things are simply not realistic. Whining about those things long after that reality is made clear is simply pointless.
I don't think it would take too much work to change at least the initial Irenicus dungeon NPCs--how much did Minsc and so on really talk in that dungeon anyway? You could have Imoen and Jaheira remain (since one has history with you, and the other is Neutral in alignment), but change Minsc.
It really wouldn't take much. In fact, replacing Minsc with Dorn would work quite well.
They could have NPCs function in the beginning like the imported items. (Pantaloons, Balduran's Helm etc)
Probably won't happen, but here's a suggestion of what could happen: -Anyone that was not in your party, doesn't appear in the cells. -Imoen doesn't really die like you because of what Sarevok said (suppresed the taint?). I cannot remember. Resurrected. -If Rasaad, Neera or Dorn were in your party, they appear with you in the cells. -Dorn/Imoen/Yoshimo busts you out instead. With Dorn, hello 19 STR. Or Rasaad, punching them open. -If noone of the above were in your party, you start alone. And/or with a new NPC. An evil Thief/Cleric? -If you start alone with no Imoen or other NPC. Increase the amount of magic and healing items. -If no Imoen or other NPC to bust you open, you do. Either premature Slayer transformation or luck? -MAYBE, change the locations of Edwin/Viconia/Yoshimo to have them start with you. -If you start a new game, you start with the default companions.
I vote simply, ignore the NPCs that were not with you and just have Imoen. You are in a powerful mage's house, there should be magic items everywhere. For example, in the starting chest, you instead find +1 or +2 items, Full Plate +1/+2 and/or scrolls and potions, if noone is with you.
That is virtually the same as ignoring/killing/removing everyone. No dialogue change except for Imoen's maybe.
@KryptBeowulf , I understand the frustration, but you should consider if throwing the words 'lazy writing' around is really justified. Try comparing the all the options and scope of SoA to more recent games. When a writer doesn't want the player to side with the virtual slaves by default, so he makes 90% of the slaves raving lunatics and murderers, that's lazy writing. When I spend entire game being the peace-maker, reasoning with everyone and trying to convince slaves/slavers they could cooperate to the mutual benefit, and then an independent group emerges that does exactly what I wanted, and yet I have NO OTHER OPTION than to slaughter them, because the writer wants to push his Big Finale on me, that's lazy writing. When you have only 9 NPCs (including a dog) and yet you can keep only one of them (the one you prolly know least and care least about) in the expansion... that's drawing wrong conclusions from the statistics.
Making a transition from one extensive game to another extensive game and cutting some corners when it comes to picking from 25 possible NPCs, and doing so at a time when 900 Mb was a reasonably sized HDD... I'd call it 'doing your best with the resources, technology, funds and time constraints you have'.
Could importing your party to BG2 be done with the reworked engine? Possibly. Is Beamdog allowed to do this? I don't know. It depends on how 'no changes' can be interpreted (We already know that they were allowed to cut some content, and add some content, so it's anyone's guess). Will Beamdog try to implement it? - we'll have to wait and see.
Will calling them lazy over and over motivate them to try? No. (From personal experience, it will do the opposite). So if you truly want this change to be included, try advocating it without insulting old and new developers. It really doesn't do any good.
A lot has been said allready, and but let me add this: transferring characters may mean that the plot will have to be altered too much. As forest39 said, many of them fill specific roles in BGII as non recruitable npc's, featuring in important subplots, that will have to be deleted. One example is the harper subplot, that may have to be dropped or severely altered if you import montaron and xzar, or not import jaheira, and that would mean also taking a large piece of the main characters plot out. So in the end, yes, allowing to import npcs will mean that BGEE developers are in breach of their licence, if such a license that does not allow plot changes is the case. Also, there is a novel based on the game, so, really, there is "canon", and intelectual rights involved.
Having said that, it is obvious that introducing minor new subplots and npc's is allowed, so it may be possible to import the new npc's, if not in the dungeon as prisoners then immediately after you get out, as it would be realistic to have them looking for you. I think i'd like to see that, and it could be accomodated (maybe even two new romance choices could be added). Some may argue that with the canonical party in the dungeon or reported dead there, that would mean the party consists of more than 6, but that is only a game convention. There is nothing wrong with having more than 5 friends, and most people recruit and dismiss npc's as part of the game, and meet all of them at least once, even if they don't recruit them.
Now, in defence of the initial choices the BGII team made all these years ago, i think the only "plot hole" is what happened in between the two games. The time gap was, of course, deliberate, so that no specific explenations would have to be given as to why you find yourself with specific people in the dungeon, why you later meet people that do not immediately recognise you even if you travelled with them etc. It is not perfect, but it serves the game well. Others have argued this point better than me. But i would also like to point out, as others did, that modding is obviously a possibility.
There's absolutely no reason to have two threads about this.
Because it makes sense and there might be a longing for it?
Seriously, I don't get what is your point in this thread.
First of all I kindly advice you to assume a more moderate tone instead of replying to anyone every other minute with this offensive and angry attitude. If you are so upset and mad about this, let me remember you that we are talking about a videogame. A videogame. If talking about a videogame stirs so deep and hateful emotions for you, I would be concerned about that rather than about the consistency of the BG series storyline.
Second, yes, it could have been better, but things have to be put in perspective. At the time they clearly thought that it was a necessary choice to grant that different options wouldn't go out of hand, forcing them to keep all the very same possible companions from the first to the second game. BG2 still allows you to fully customize your party and to fully pursue your alignement along the whole storyline. Which is also one of the reasons because it is worldwide recognized one of the best (if not THE best) cRPG of all times. Enough said.
Third, for the Enhanced Editions the developers aren't allowed by contract to change any major storyline plot or NPC. They can just add something and someone, that's it. Which makes all this bragging about laziness and "unacceptable" things quite pointless.
Comments
I always played it off as BG1 ends I go exploring Jaheria pops out of the woods to lecture me and then *BAM!* Irenicus ambushes us and takes us off to his lair.
I mean you do have options in BG2 to tell the "canon" characters to take a hike so the possibility of them not being in your party previously certainly exists
- Viconia, Edwin, Kagain, Branwen and Minsc ( Imoen killed by youin BG1) - you find all party members as they were in BG2 and only Minsc is in dungeon, no Jaheira. It is obvious that after BG1 some party members walked their own way. So imagine that Minsc was the only one that stayed with you, meanwhile Jaheira would be found elsewhere in the world, with modified dialogue about Khalid being killed by something. And Imoen, killed by you in BG1, she would only have different dialogues about miraculously avoiding death, following you, trying to take revenge or something and being captured by Irenicus like you.
Other example:
- Dynaheir, Khalid, Ajantis, Yeslick, and Coran (Imoen not being in your party) - once again you find all party members as they were in BG2, but you get dialogue from Imoen about following you because she always wanted to be part of your party, so she also got caught, bla, bla, bla, you know the rest. Also, she gives you dialogue about Dynaheir and Khalid being killed by Irenicus.
I hope you get the point, without touching all party members, you only need to make alternative start for Minsc and Jaheira, and coulple of dialogue options depending on your squad at the end of BG1. I think it would be best way, and it wouldnt be so hard to implement, if game engine allows something like this, of course.
If you have one, you can use your imagination to invent a reason why you ended up with those six companions, given what happened to you when you played BG1, but it is unreasonable to expect writers to account for what they couldn't possibly know about. It's not like writing a sequel to a movie where the story happens exactly the same way every time everyone watches it, and writers have a hard enough time avoiding retconning and plot holes even then.
However, this is not a modern game. It's a game that was made fifteen years ago, when the assumption was that players would play a certain way, and if they deviated from that then it was their own decision to make (see also, "guards attack you every time you enter a city if your reputation is 1" as evidence that the game doesn't want you to be evil).
Would I rather it be more dynamic? Sure. But as it stands, the characters are so strong and fleshed out that I wouldn't want to mess with it. Minor tweaks to dialogue or adding new conversations and banters I'm fine with, but completely changing a character's (frankly, quite awesome) story arc? No thank you.
Write a prologue that justifies why you're there with Minsc and Jaheira (and Khalid and Dynaheir), and that will solve any problems with plot holes. It's called "Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition", not "Baldur's Gate: Director's Cut".
It'll be enhanced as BG:EE was. Bug fixes, maybe new NPCs, probably the three in BG:EE will be in 2. Probably there'll be a sequel or some equivalent to Black Pits. Enhanced multiplayer? Enhanced moddability? Maybe new kits, races/subraces? Who knows? I dunno, this stuff seems really self-evident to me.
I don't understand how you do consider BG:EE to have been enhanced, as nothing as major as what you're asking for has been changed in it, but BG2:EE can't possibly be considered to be enhanced unless they do this one specific thing for you? There are a ton of things they can do to enhance it. And you're being very short with people who understand this and are trying to explain it to you. I agree with how annoying the plotholes are, but they're not overhaul's fault nor people who disagree with you in this thread. Rage at the original production of the game or those who hold the legal rights, for what good it'll do you. Maybe the prologue idea.
A stand alone mod can be added to the end of BG1, in which after leaving an area "YOU ARE WAY LAID BY ENEMIES AND MUST DEFEND YOURSELF"
Those enemies are the missing canon party members and an ensuing dialog. For example if you picked up Edwin to kill Dyn & Minsc, the latter would be there to seek revenge on you and the Red Wizard.
Or if you fed Khalid to a bear, he'd show up after tracking his estranged wife down and a happy reunion would take place.
Happy or Hostile dialog will always end the same way, cloaked figures jumping from the darkness ripping the two parties apart and taking 4(5) BG2 characters captive for experiments.
There would be a lot of different scenarios to address and it would be heavier RP than the rest of the game, but it would fill in all plot wholes except for people who got chunked and my response to that, is you might of been playing on CORE, but the default is normal.
Pretty much, yeah. It's the way it was in the original games, and people accepted it as being "just one of those things". If you want to see it changed, talk to the modding community. But I think you'll find it's a more ambitious project than you think.
One can only hope buddy.
Krypt, you should just accept that you're not really supposed to know what happened between BG1 and BG2. That is the writers' artistic license, and if you just let anyone with an opinion change it, that sets a bad precendent. There are all kinds of reasons those mix of characters could be in there, it's not worth Overhaul losing the license just because you can't use your imagination a bit.
I remember joking with a couple of characters in BG2 about having killed them before, and little details like whether they got chunked or not were irrelevant, because it seemed like a long time ago and the Forgotten Realms is a world chock with possibilities for them coming back.
Threads merged.
Look, it's great that you are invested in your party and your own personal storyline. But some things are simply not realistic. Whining about those things long after that reality is made clear is simply pointless.
It really wouldn't take much. In fact, replacing Minsc with Dorn would work quite well.
Probably won't happen, but here's a suggestion of what could happen:
-Anyone that was not in your party, doesn't appear in the cells.
-Imoen doesn't really die like you because of what Sarevok said (suppresed the taint?). I cannot remember. Resurrected.
-If Rasaad, Neera or Dorn were in your party, they appear with you in the cells.
-Dorn/Imoen/Yoshimo busts you out instead. With Dorn, hello 19 STR. Or Rasaad, punching them open.
-If noone of the above were in your party, you start alone. And/or with a new NPC. An evil Thief/Cleric?
-If you start alone with no Imoen or other NPC. Increase the amount of magic and healing items.
-If no Imoen or other NPC to bust you open, you do. Either premature Slayer transformation or luck?
-MAYBE, change the locations of Edwin/Viconia/Yoshimo to have them start with you.
-If you start a new game, you start with the default companions.
I vote simply, ignore the NPCs that were not with you and just have Imoen. You are in a powerful mage's house, there should be magic items everywhere.
For example, in the starting chest, you instead find +1 or +2 items, Full Plate +1/+2 and/or scrolls and potions, if noone is with you.
That is virtually the same as ignoring/killing/removing everyone. No dialogue change except for Imoen's maybe.
When a writer doesn't want the player to side with the virtual slaves by default, so he makes 90% of the slaves raving lunatics and murderers, that's lazy writing.
When I spend entire game being the peace-maker, reasoning with everyone and trying to convince slaves/slavers they could cooperate to the mutual benefit, and then an independent group emerges that does exactly what I wanted, and yet I have NO OTHER OPTION than to slaughter them, because the writer wants to push his Big Finale on me, that's lazy writing.
When you have only 9 NPCs (including a dog) and yet you can keep only one of them (the one you prolly know least and care least about) in the expansion... that's drawing wrong conclusions from the statistics.
Making a transition from one extensive game to another extensive game and cutting some corners when it comes to picking from 25 possible NPCs, and doing so at a time when 900 Mb was a reasonably sized HDD... I'd call it 'doing your best with the resources, technology, funds and time constraints you have'.
Could importing your party to BG2 be done with the reworked engine? Possibly.
Is Beamdog allowed to do this? I don't know. It depends on how 'no changes' can be interpreted (We already know that they were allowed to cut some content, and add some content, so it's anyone's guess).
Will Beamdog try to implement it? - we'll have to wait and see.
Will calling them lazy over and over motivate them to try? No. (From personal experience, it will do the opposite). So if you truly want this change to be included, try advocating it without insulting old and new developers. It really doesn't do any good.
Having said that, it is obvious that introducing minor new subplots and npc's is allowed, so it may be possible to import the new npc's, if not in the dungeon as prisoners then immediately after you get out, as it would be realistic to have them looking for you. I think i'd like to see that, and it could be accomodated (maybe even two new romance choices could be added). Some may argue that with the canonical party in the dungeon or reported dead there, that would mean the party consists of more than 6, but that is only a game convention. There is nothing wrong with having more than 5 friends, and most people recruit and dismiss npc's as part of the game, and meet all of them at least once, even if they don't recruit them.
Now, in defence of the initial choices the BGII team made all these years ago, i think the only "plot hole" is what happened in between the two games. The time gap was, of course, deliberate, so that no specific explenations would have to be given as to why you find yourself with specific people in the dungeon, why you later meet people that do not immediately recognise you even if you travelled with them etc. It is not perfect, but it serves the game well. Others have argued this point better than me. But i would also like to point out, as others did, that modding is obviously a possibility.
First of all I kindly advice you to assume a more moderate tone instead of replying to anyone every other minute with this offensive and angry attitude. If you are so upset and mad about this, let me remember you that we are talking about a videogame. A videogame. If talking about a videogame stirs so deep and hateful emotions for you, I would be concerned about that rather than about the consistency of the BG series storyline.
Second, yes, it could have been better, but things have to be put in perspective. At the time they clearly thought that it was a necessary choice to grant that different options wouldn't go out of hand, forcing them to keep all the very same possible companions from the first to the second game. BG2 still allows you to fully customize your party and to fully pursue your alignement along the whole storyline. Which is also one of the reasons because it is worldwide recognized one of the best (if not THE best) cRPG of all times. Enough said.
Third, for the Enhanced Editions the developers aren't allowed by contract to change any major storyline plot or NPC. They can just add something and someone, that's it. Which makes all this bragging about laziness and "unacceptable" things quite pointless.
That's it.