@jflieder The theory goes that if you've correctly planned out the XP growth of the game (with its various rewards), then you don't need a cap at all, because the game's pacing provides its own limitations. Anyone who intentionally works outside those limitations will have an easier time of it going through the game, and that's okay because those are unusual cases. Just like how in Final Fantasy, the game is balanced for a level 65-ish endgame, but if you really want to go crazy it will allow you to reach level 99 (which is the maximum solely because the level field is a two-digit value).
For Baldur's Gate, that same theory should apply. So if you're playing through the game, assuming that the developers planned things out correctly, there should be no need for an XP cap because in theory the amount of XP received for quests and combat should be exactly as much as you could feasibly want to attain. There's no grinding in this game (or very little), so your progress of level is directly proportionate to your progress through the game. Until you hit the cap, at which point your experience is arbitrarily frozen.
It's bad design, which is the reason why a lot of people remove the cap altogether. Now, you could argue that it's a necessary evil because the developers didn't plan the XP growth correctly. You might even be right about that. But that doesn't change the fact that, on principle, it makes no sense to cap the character's growth just because he got...35% of the way from level 7 to level 8.
@Aosaw Interesting. Again, I have no problem with the optional (mod induced) removal of the cap. And it makes sense that the removal of the cap would allow the continued proportional reward of experience for those that search every nook and cranny, complete every quest and kill every baddy. I do still feel it is the lesser of two evils to have the cap to ensure in the unmodded game, there are no overpowered parties by the end of the game. I agree that it is unfortunate to eventually lose experience-driven motivation to kill and quest with the cap. However, in addition to the fact that I'd play to battle and quest regardless, I'll take the capped player over someone who kills and quests honestly to the endgame and winds up accidentally overpowered.
There are a few areas to grind and face respawning enemies to jack up your level that some players utilize. Some people are going to play with a spirit other than that of the original game's intent, which is fine. I agree that play-through styles that exploit these areas should not factor into removing or keeping the cap. It just feels right and closer to the original game (plus TotSC) to have your party guaranteed to be at or around a certain general level of power at the end. It very well could have been an original design flaw to have the total experience available not add up to the ideal endgame level, which I hadn't even thought about previously. But regardless of the reason of the details of the original game's shortfalls, I'm glad to see the cap kept, and I'll remove it with a mod in certain play-throughs when I feel the need.
Would the more comprehensive fix -a complete restructuring of the experience granted throughout the game to ensure a proper endgame level without needing a cap- be preferable? I suppose it would, now that you mention it. But considering the options of strictly keeping or strictly removing the cap without that restructuring, I'll prefer keeping cap.
@jflieder I think you could probably do it with some selective shifting of XP rewards. There are a number of BIG rewards that happen based on story events, which are mostly there to "even things out" but are on the whole probably not super-necessary (based on the number of small rewards between chapter breaks), that you could reduce appropriately to even things out more.
It would be a lot of work, though, and I don't know that it would be worthwhile unless you could do it reliably.
@Aosaw Eh, I'll just stick with the capped game. I was not nearly computer/gaming saavy enough to consider tweaking the game in that manner before, and I am no more confident now with the EE coming out . I'll leave that to others, more power to them to customize that way, and I'll stick with the situational modding as I see fit (which seems like it'll be plentiful and pain-free with the code simplifications and other efforts from Overhaul...I hope this is as good as advertised!).
@bigdogchris But you know there is only almost - limited amount of experience to gain. It is not big issue for 6-party members team but problem when you try to go through with no NPCs. But you know it is pretty easy to remove xp cap, I have already seen 3 2da-files pack, that removes xp cap, so don't want to argue and it is ok as it is.
@bigdogchris But you know there is only almost - limited amount of experience to gain. It is not big issue for 6-party members team but problem when you try to go through with no NPCs. But you know it is pretty easy to remove xp cap, I have already seen 3 2da-files pack, that removes xp cap, so don't want to argue and it is ok as it is.
One of the primary arguments for no cap is for people wanting to do solo play-through. I say malarkey! The game isn't designed or balanced to be soloed, so there should be no considerations for solo play. It's a group based game, not a solo game.
I understand some people enjoy solo play, which is fine, but there are games for that. What I want in games is not present in every other game, nor do I expect it to be. Why do other people think every game should be catered to their play style?
One of the primary arguments for no cap is for people wanting to do solo play-through. I say malarkey! The game isn't designed or balanced to be soloed, so there should be no considerations for solo play. It's a group based game, not a solo game.
I understand some people enjoy solo play, which is fine, but there are games for that. What I want in games is not present in every other game, nor do I expect it to be. Why do other people think every game should be catered to their play style?
I guess the same could be said for your play style of having a party of six. After all, you don't start with a party of six, nor is there anything in the game telling you that you should have one. Six is simply the maximum number of people that can be in your party at one time. Personally, I prefer a party of 2-3 characters, but my party size varies every game dependent upon how I decide to play it.
If there has to be a cap, I think it would make the most sense if XP scaled relative to the number of people in the party. That way, the game caters to everyone's playing style not just yours or someone else's.
If there has to be a cap, I think it would make the most sense if XP scaled relative to the number of people in the party. That way, the game caters to everyone's playing style not just yours or someone else's.
Baldur's Gate was developed for party based play, not solo. Having no level cap doesn't change that or the type of play style this caters too. Why? Many classes would not survive the game without the crazy exploits and play styles that were not intended to begin with. D&D, especially 2nd Edition, caters towards grouping. It's always been that way, always will.
i wish i could get to use lvl 9 wizard spells.. but aside from that there is no reason why i would want more levels.. i also want to be able to import my party to BG2 exactly as they are levels included without it making the experience too easy for me
The game is already too easy to cap out, even in a full party, I actually wouldn't mind them lower it. The original was pretty challenging at 89k, but with 161k, it's a cake walk.
I think the cap is fine where it's at. The problem I have is reaching the cap way early in the game. I would support lowering all xp rewards for quests and killing enemies. The best situation for me would be reaching the cap sometime in Baldur's Gate city after having done all the ToTSC missions.
@bigdogchris My main idea was directed at playing with a party, but with less than six people in it, although it would certainly also work for solo. Scaling XP to the number of people in the party would work no matter how many people were in it. Characters could either get less XP per kill or they could get proportionally more over all, relative to how many people were in the party, so that a party of three, for example could still get the same amount of overall XP as a party of six, but each character would get twice as much, since the XP would be divided differently. If there were only two characters in the party, they could each earn three times as much, and so forth.
This doesn't seem like it would affect the difficulty of the game, since having less characters in the party would be compensated by being able to become proportionately more powerful. It would still be a maximum of 966,000XP for the party (161,000 x 6), but it would create a more even playing field so to speak for parties with different numbers of characters.
If you always played with six people in your party, nothing would change as your characters would still cap at 161,000 XP, so you wouldn't even notice the difference. I thought this would be a good compromise between getting rid of the XP cap completely and keeping it.
@bigdogchris But you know there is only almost - limited amount of experience to gain. It is not big issue for 6-party members team but problem when you try to go through with no NPCs. But you know it is pretty easy to remove xp cap, I have already seen 3 2da-files pack, that removes xp cap, so don't want to argue and it is ok as it is.
One of the primary arguments for no cap is for people wanting to do solo play-through. I say malarkey! The game isn't designed or balanced to be soloed, so there should be no considerations for solo play. It's a group based game, not a solo game.
I understand some people enjoy solo play, which is fine, but there are games for that. What I want in games is not present in every other game, nor do I expect it to be. Why do other people think every game should be catered to their play style?
I do not solo the game and never will always on 6 characters. I feel the characters are stuck in limbo not reaching there full potential even in dual classing to. I felt that in the original game.
@ArkdeEREH but you dont have all your party membersin the beginnig how would you solve that ? You could go as far as to say hey so 966.000xp overall ok then, I am me and Imoen we kill a ogre and divide 270 xp so thats 135 each, so now well I dont want imoen anymore, will i get her xp back ? or now montaron and Xzar come along but now Imoen and CHARNAME have 135 any they've got nothing so will they get so long xp till we are all on the same level ? I guess it's a good idea what you propose but how would you fine tune it, what if a char dies and he cant be resurected (petrefied and then destroyed ? )
I would propose the following I think it was stated before some pages ago cap the level and not the xp. Or rather both you can either get 161k xp or get to level x ( I would say 9 since this is the nearest thing to 161k for alot of classes, if 161k is enough to get a higher level thats fine)
another option would be you can aquire as much xp as you want, but it won't be transferred (maybe with a tick box in BG2EE you could enable it) because like in the gothic franchise you hit your head and are reduced to a certain xp value.
I guess there is no real solution for it, the best would probably be if there are simply tick boxes in BGEE which lifts the xp cap, and one in BG2EE which allows importing such highlevel characters - just a thought cant you export import characters in BG2 aswell which are higher than 161k xp ? then you wouldn't need such a box - like that everyone can do as he pleases.
I want improvements to BG/BG2/IWD/IWD2 but I dont want to change the original game play. I want things to be balanced while playing one character all the way through the game(s).
i wish i could get to use lvl 9 wizard spells.. but aside from that there is no reason why i would want more levels..
You'll be able to, when the story continues in BG2.
I see you arguing against people for changing their level cap to suit their needs. Why? I don't get why people get worked up about something that doesn't affect them.
I see you arguing against people for changing their level cap to suit their needs. Why? I don't get why people get worked up about something that doesn't affect them.
If people want to override the cap themselves I don't care. I just don't want it to be put into the game as the default. I apologize if there was any confusion on that.
I missed that apparently. Didnt read the whole thread. This is a common thing for some people on forums though, getting mad at people for modding a non competitive game. Its pretty bad over at the borderlands 2 forums. Tl2 forums were like that too. PC gaming is great because usually we have the freedom to tailor these games to our liking. When people try to get it locked down like a console i get a bit irritated.
I missed that apparently. Didnt read the whole thread. This is a common thing for some people on forums though, getting mad at people for modding a non competitive game. Its pretty bad over at the borderlands 2 forums. Tl2 forums were like that too. PC gaming is great because usually we have the freedom to tailor these games to our liking. When people try to get it locked down like a console i get a bit irritated.
I like to feel character progression. When I hit the cap, the game kinda shuts down for me in a few ways; there's kinda no reason to kill those monsters.
But, I also don't like being so powerful that nothing challenges.
Couple of strange ideas:
1) As I said on this thread already: cap LEVEL, not EXPERIENCE. You can't gain more levels but the extra experience you gain is kept and usable for leveling when you port to BG2.
2) Allow me to do something with that extra XP. Could be anything almost. Maybe let me buy an extra hit point or two, get more Bhaalspawn powers, switch out my sorcerer spells, reassign thief skill points or weapon proficiencies, create scrolls or potions, or any type of character customization that normally wouldn't be available.
I don't want uber characters but I also don't want XP to be pointless.
I liked in Final Fantasy when I could eventually become super badass and steamroll things that used to own me. Thats why i scrapped my xp cap in my game. Honestly though, if you don't spend a ton of time running around killing the (sometimes ridiculously fast) respawns, you aren't going to be superpowered anyway.
Never did like character progression caps that are easy to reach in RPG games.
As I said on this thread already: cap LEVEL, not EXPERIENCE. You can't gain more levels but the extra experience you gain is kept and usable for leveling when you port to BG2.
HEY YOU GUYS!!!
It looks like they do this thing already! They just don't show the extra XP you get on your character during the game. Here's the score:
I hit the level cap in game. I fought some monsters afterward (which normally awards XP, yes?). I then removed the campaign wide level cap (the 161000 for all classes cap). When I reloaded my game, the XP I got from the monsters after hitting the cap showed across all my characters (except the thief who was still subject to the secondary class specific cap). This means that characters are still receiving and recording XP in the character file, they're just not showing any beyond the cap.
Anyone want to do some nitty-gritty investigation on this? Namely, keep the cap on, get XP beyond the cap, export the character, and see (in Shadowkeeper) if he really has more XP recorded in the character file then 161000? Also, check to see if you can record XP beyond the class specific cap.
P.S. For those who don't know, there are two XP caps. One for the campaign (161000 in normal game, 600000 in Black Pits) and a class specific cap. The class specific cap allows all classes to just hit 10th level, capping XP at different places for different classes to allow this.
Comments
For Baldur's Gate, that same theory should apply. So if you're playing through the game, assuming that the developers planned things out correctly, there should be no need for an XP cap because in theory the amount of XP received for quests and combat should be exactly as much as you could feasibly want to attain. There's no grinding in this game (or very little), so your progress of level is directly proportionate to your progress through the game. Until you hit the cap, at which point your experience is arbitrarily frozen.
It's bad design, which is the reason why a lot of people remove the cap altogether. Now, you could argue that it's a necessary evil because the developers didn't plan the XP growth correctly. You might even be right about that. But that doesn't change the fact that, on principle, it makes no sense to cap the character's growth just because he got...35% of the way from level 7 to level 8.
There are a few areas to grind and face respawning enemies to jack up your level that some players utilize. Some people are going to play with a spirit other than that of the original game's intent, which is fine. I agree that play-through styles that exploit these areas should not factor into removing or keeping the cap. It just feels right and closer to the original game (plus TotSC) to have your party guaranteed to be at or around a certain general level of power at the end. It very well could have been an original design flaw to have the total experience available not add up to the ideal endgame level, which I hadn't even thought about previously. But regardless of the reason of the details of the original game's shortfalls, I'm glad to see the cap kept, and I'll remove it with a mod in certain play-throughs when I feel the need.
Would the more comprehensive fix -a complete restructuring of the experience granted throughout the game to ensure a proper endgame level without needing a cap- be preferable? I suppose it would, now that you mention it. But considering the options of strictly keeping or strictly removing the cap without that restructuring, I'll prefer keeping cap.
With my memory the way it is lately If I don't do it day 1 I may forget it and only remember long AFTER I hit the cap
It would be a lot of work, though, and I don't know that it would be worthwhile unless you could do it reliably.
If you want to argue there should be no cap, then I argue the end bosses should be level 1 because that's the equivalent of no cap.
But you know there is only almost - limited amount of experience to gain. It is not big issue for 6-party members team but problem when you try to go through with no NPCs. But you know it is pretty easy to remove xp cap, I have already seen 3 2da-files pack, that removes xp cap, so don't want to argue and it is ok as it is.
I understand some people enjoy solo play, which is fine, but there are games for that. What I want in games is not present in every other game, nor do I expect it to be. Why do other people think every game should be catered to their play style?
If there has to be a cap, I think it would make the most sense if XP scaled relative to the number of people in the party. That way, the game caters to everyone's playing style not just yours or someone else's.
This doesn't seem like it would affect the difficulty of the game, since having less characters in the party would be compensated by being able to become proportionately more powerful. It would still be a maximum of 966,000XP for the party (161,000 x 6), but it would create a more even playing field so to speak for parties with different numbers of characters.
If you always played with six people in your party, nothing would change as your characters would still cap at 161,000 XP, so you wouldn't even notice the difference. I thought this would be a good compromise between getting rid of the XP cap completely and keeping it.
but you dont have all your party membersin the beginnig how would you solve that ?
You could go as far as to say hey so 966.000xp overall ok then, I am me and Imoen we kill a ogre and divide 270 xp so thats 135 each, so now well I dont want imoen anymore, will i get her xp back ? or now montaron and Xzar come along but now Imoen and CHARNAME have 135 any they've got nothing so will they get so long xp till we are all on the same level ?
I guess it's a good idea what you propose but how would you fine tune it, what if a char dies and he cant be resurected (petrefied and then destroyed ? )
I would propose the following I think it was stated before some pages ago cap the level and not the xp.
Or rather both you can either get 161k xp or get to level x ( I would say 9 since this is the nearest thing to 161k for alot of classes, if 161k is enough to get a higher level thats fine)
another option would be you can aquire as much xp as you want, but it won't be transferred (maybe with a tick box in BG2EE you could enable it) because like in the gothic franchise you hit your head and are reduced to a certain xp value.
I guess there is no real solution for it, the best would probably be if there are simply tick boxes in BGEE which lifts the xp cap, and one in BG2EE which allows importing such highlevel characters - just a thought cant you export import characters in BG2 aswell which are higher than 161k xp ? then you wouldn't need such a box - like that everyone can do as he pleases.
I see you arguing against people for changing their level cap to suit their needs. Why? I don't get why people get worked up about something that doesn't affect them.
But, I also don't like being so powerful that nothing challenges.
Couple of strange ideas:
1) As I said on this thread already: cap LEVEL, not EXPERIENCE. You can't gain more levels but the extra experience you gain is kept and usable for leveling when you port to BG2.
2) Allow me to do something with that extra XP. Could be anything almost. Maybe let me buy an extra hit point or two, get more Bhaalspawn powers, switch out my sorcerer spells, reassign thief skill points or weapon proficiencies, create scrolls or potions, or any type of character customization that normally wouldn't be available.
I don't want uber characters but I also don't want XP to be pointless.
Never did like character progression caps that are easy to reach in RPG games.
It looks like they do this thing already! They just don't show the extra XP you get on your character during the game. Here's the score:
I hit the level cap in game. I fought some monsters afterward (which normally awards XP, yes?). I then removed the campaign wide level cap (the 161000 for all classes cap). When I reloaded my game, the XP I got from the monsters after hitting the cap showed across all my characters (except the thief who was still subject to the secondary class specific cap). This means that characters are still receiving and recording XP in the character file, they're just not showing any beyond the cap.
Anyone want to do some nitty-gritty investigation on this? Namely, keep the cap on, get XP beyond the cap, export the character, and see (in Shadowkeeper) if he really has more XP recorded in the character file then 161000? Also, check to see if you can record XP beyond the class specific cap.
P.S. For those who don't know, there are two XP caps. One for the campaign (161000 in normal game, 600000 in Black Pits) and a class specific cap. The class specific cap allows all classes to just hit 10th level, capping XP at different places for different classes to allow this.