BG:EE Level Cap

bigdogchris

A user question in the FAQ thread has got me thinking about this for the hundred and seventh time. How should BG:EE handle the level cap by default, considering later importing into BG2:EE? Modders and those who want to change the XP cap configuration file will do so regardless of what the game sets it, but for those of us who don't make those changes, what do you want it set at out of the box?

I've included conservative options, to help keep the balance of difficulty. I've also included more aggressive cap options that allow much higher levels, but would also make the game much easier.

Jalily

I have zero interest in racing to super high levels, but I don't see how letting other people play that way would hurt my or anyone else's experience. Realistically, you're not going to achieve high levels in BG1 without some serious grinding anyway, especially with exponentially growing requirements. If someone wants to put in all that effort to feel like a god, why not let them?

bigdogchris

Completely uncapping the experience would be my last option. While I do think the game progression was not balanced very well, as hitting the cap is actually easy IMO, I think completely removing the cap would really unbalance the difficulty of the end game. On top of that you have BG2 kits and skills (dual wield) which already overpower your characters compared to BG1 content.

I don't want BG2 to be a walk in the park, and the beginning of the game would really be unbalanced, difficulty wise, if you allowed unlimited EXP importing.

ginger_hammer

A small raise and allowing that to come over to BG2 sounds about right to me. They could always add in some really high level battles into BG2 or increase difficulty.

Lifat

I really am in doubt about this. I think I'm going to go with "Leave the xp cap where it is". That said if we could have some kind of option to remove/reinsert the xp cap that would be even better.

Tanthalas

Its very very easy to just edit the experience cap.

bigdogchris

Tanthalas said:

Its very very easy to just edit the experience cap.

That's ok, for people who want to do that, because regardless of what the game sets they will change it. We're specifically talking about the default installation, most people won't touch those files.

moody_mage

Tanthalas said:

Its very very easy to just edit the experience cap.

Hence why I'm not voting. I'm intending to chop and change as I see fit. Ideally I guess uncap completely but have options to be able to soft-set an XP cap if required - maybe via a config menu?

Lifat

I realise you are able to remove it and/or change the cap at leasure. But not all people have the knowledge on how to do these things. Granted they could google it but while they are doing a redo of a game then why not add this as an option?

Senash

I once arguad for level caps already, but I'll try to summarize it here too. Without a cap, you could become too powerful, which would actually hurt the gaming experience. As @Tanthalas said, if you really want it removed, do it yourself. It's not big a deal. I also like to have some XP goal ahead of me. If there would be no cap I would feel that I have to grind and kill every single enemy in the game, since, without a cap, that would be the ultimate achievable level. I like to play th game in a relaxed manner, knowing that I will reach the cap anyway.

About the importing XP thing... If I remember correctly BG2 had a lower starting XP than TotSC. I would like that to be raised possibly, or rather I should say that I wouldn't be against it. But if XP cap would be raised to let's say 300k XP, the whole game would have to be redesigned so that you wouldn't be al too powerful for the first quests. So it would be ok to raise the starting xp in BG2, but to somewhere under the new XP in BG:EE, since the original BG2 starting XP was below TotSC as well.

Edit: Just checked: TotSC had an XP cap of 161000 xp, while BG2 starting xp was 89000 (this was also the XP cap in BG1). And I would like to change my vote to "Raise the experience cap over TotSC, by a little, and allow that increase imported into BG2:EE"

Edit2: Although that might be a bit too powerful, too.... Hm... consistency and continuity over gameplay balance... Can't really decide. But I'm sure the devs will figure this out and it will be great

Anduin

I roleplay it...

Uncap it...

Everytime I kill, I take one step closer to godhood...

Everytime an innocent dies... I grow stronger...

You weak fools who shy away from your undeniable and inevitable end...

The purity of the dark oblivion awaits us all, embrace it like a cloak and shroud others in its black majesty...

Beregost will be layed to waste... Baldur's Gate turned into a charnel house... Even the animals of the forest will be slaughtered for the experience of having the blood run through my fingers...

I have become DEATH ! DESTROYER OF WORLDS !

ALL WILL BE MURDERED FOR MY OWN SATISFACTION !

die ! Die ! DIE ! DIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEE!

*ahem*

i play chaotic good... honest.

mlnevese

It's quite easy to remove the cap, as it is easy to add rules to the game that'll allow all classes to level up to level 50, but I still think the level cap feels too artificial.

It punishes completionist players who will go out and complete every quest available as they will reach the cap long before the end f BG1.

I recently played a BGT game and finished BG1 with something around 230k XP. And it didn't make my playing experience any worse or even easier. Some of the first NPCs you meet in BG2 start with 400k XP, so I still had around half the experience of Aerie or Anomen.

ajwz

I can't see a compelling reason to cap xp in a game where the amount of xp required to level increases exponentially, while the amount of xp from quests and kills does not.

RomulanPaladin

Cap LEVEL, not EXPERIENCE.

I think that there should be a cap to the XP that a character can benefit from but that character should still be allowed to acquire XP as usual. The XP gained over the cap will do nothing until BG2 where it can be used as normal.

This may cause a level jump once importing into BG2. However the kind of XPs you're getting in BG1 isn't really enough to make it a serious jump, if any.

Brude

Jalily said:

I have zero interest in racing to super high levels, but I don't see how letting other people play that way would hurt my or anyone else's experience. Realistically, you're not going to achieve high levels in BG1 without some serious grinding anyway, especially with exponentially growing requirements. If someone wants to put in all that effort to feel like a god, why not let them?

These games are balanced around caps, and removing them or raising them arbitrarily can throw off the balance. Once that happens, you can't change it without players beefing about "nerfs." And then you've just got another badly designed RPG on the market.

@RomulanPaladin's idea is interesting though; that's a pretty novel approach to this question.

Brude

ajwz said:

I can't see a compelling reason to cap xp in a game where the amount of xp required to level increases exponentially, while the amount of xp from quests and kills does not.

It depends almost entirely on how BG:EE handles spawn sizes, because the original game and BG2 approached it differently.

In the original game, the size and number of monster spawns depended on the size of your party when you entered any given area. This effectively scaled the difficulty and XP gains well, because you couldn't farm areas and rush through harder content with two people and get more XP per encounter. Regardless the size of the group, each character still got more or less the same XP.

BG2's engine *always* assumed you had a full party in any given area, so the number of monsters spawned was the same. This is why players can hit SoA's level cap early when soloing or running a smaller sized party; individually, each character gets more XP per encounter when there are less people in the group.

If BG:EE is using BG2's engine and they don't change they way monster groups are spawned, then it will be possible (as in Tutu) to level up more quickly and hit the cap that much faster with a solo PC or small parties.

Awong124

ajwz said:

I can't see a compelling reason to cap xp in a game where the amount of xp required to level increases exponentially, while the amount of xp from quests and kills does not.

The exponential increase only happens in the first 10 levels or so depending on class. After a certain point, the XP required per level is a constant value (with the exception of Druids, which are messed up). So it kind of depends on how much XP is actually available in the game. And also whether or not you play with a full party.

I personally don't really care if there is a cap or not. I usually play with a full party of 6, so it ends up not making a huge difference. I somewhat prefer having a cap just to have a target to hit.

Mungri

I think an increase to a 300,000 EXP cap for BG1 is reasonable, it lets every class including Paladins and Rangers to gain one extra level, but also lets druids gain 2 more levels which would actually give me a reason to play a pure druid for once.

New max levels would be:

Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Monk, Barbarian - 9
Clerics - 9
Mages / Sorcerers - 10
Thieves and Bards - 11
Druids - 12

EXP tables can be checked here:

http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts

Druids level 12-15 is pretty horrible though, but I also read an idea of dual classing a level 15 druid to a fighter, though that would take ages to achieve, and going 9 Berserker / Druid is still a lot better because the first 10 druid levels are acquired the fastest.

Mornmagor

BG1 has a level cap now.

Some new stuff is being added.

So raise the cap accordingly.

I'm not in favor of uncaps, because i like to discover everything in games. If doing that would make me such a high level that BG2:EE would be a worse experience because of no challenge, i don't want it.

Dee

@Mornmagor I believe there was a post a while ago that estimated the amount of experience that is actually available in the base game, assuming that you didn't spend any time grinding the spawn points, and it worked out to a little less than 5 million. I could be wrong about the specific number.

Regardless, five million divided by six party members--that's 833,333 XP per party member, which is a fair bit of it, admittedly. I think (depending on the class) that puts you somewhere between level 12 and level 15.

That said, it's not like you'd be starting BG2 with high-level abilities. And this is also assuming that you went everywhere and did everything in BG1. Mages, except for sorcerers, won't be able to cast higher-level spells anyway because the scrolls don't exist, and the power curve for warriors is much less sharp than it is for spellcasters.

Mornmagor

@Aosaw, indeed, but starting BG2 at level 13 or 14? I don't know.

Dee

@Mornmagor Well, again, that's only if you do absolutely everything there is to do in BG1. I don't see it being remarkably different from starting Throne of Bhaal at level 22 after hyper-exploring Amn in BG2.

But maybe the importer could give you the option to reset your character's experience at the start of the game--which would not only allow you to start at an appropriate level for BG2, but it would also allow you to bring your character into BG1 at level 1 again.

Mornmagor

@Aosaw, the importer xp reset idea seems interesting.

By the way, i am going to do whatever there is in BG1

bigdogchris

Just so you know, I did make 'not allow xp to be imported' as poll option

LMTR14

uncapped, and add high level monsters into bg1. beginning of bg 2 might reduce experience again (justified by the torture)

Cheesebelly

I am for completely removing the XP cap. There isn't plenty of point to it - with a full party you will hardly go over 200 thousand XP anyway. And if you like to powerplay or minimalize your party... then a cap will do you no good in the first place!

Let godspawns be spawns of a god for god's sake! (did I just say god three times in one sentence? Whoops!)

mlnevese

In my last playthrough I finished BG1 with something around 220k-230k xp... Hardly gamebreaking and I didn't keep asking myself why I still bothered to look for and complete quests...

O_Bruce

I think there should be limits, althought experience cap should be big enought to make playing solo worth it.

Bercon

Completely uncapping the experience ruins solo playthroughs, as you gain access to too high level spells for example that wipe everything out with a single spell that you are not supposed to have access to. Some level cap should be there, but it should be so high you wont reach it with full sized party until the very last few quests or so.

If you really want no limits, then you can easily mod the game.

Mungri

^^ Yup, uncapped XP in BG1 overpowers solo runs while providing little benefit for groups. If a player wants to do this, they easilly can with mods.

A 300,000 XP cap would still provide additional power for solo characters, while also allowing a full group of whatever classes to gain an extra level over the vanilla game.

Aosaw said:

@Mornmagor I believe there was a post a while ago that estimated the amount of experience that is actually available in the base game, assuming that you didn't spend any time grinding the spawn points, and it worked out to a little less than 5 million. I could be wrong about the specific number.

Regardless, five million divided by six party members--that's 833,333 XP per party member, which is a fair bit of it, admittedly. I think (depending on the class) that puts you somewhere between level 12 and level 15.

That said, it's not like you'd be starting BG2 with high-level abilities. And this is also assuming that you went everywhere and did everything in BG1. Mages, except for sorcerers, won't be able to cast higher-level spells anyway because the scrolls don't exist, and the power curve for warriors is much less sharp than it is for spellcasters.

From having soloed BG1 with uncapped XP levels several times, around 500,000 - 750,000 XP is what I had by the end of the game.

I finished the game with 161,000 XP in thief, and over 375,000, but not close to 750,000 XP in Mage.

Awong124

Yeah, 5 million seems a bit much. It's probably going to be pretty close to 161,000 x 6, since they probably designed the cap to be reached near the end of the game with 6 party members while doing nearly all the quests. So probably around 1 million would be my guess.