Viconia & Alignment (& Racism) - Spoilers
rdarken
Member Posts: 660
Last night, I spawned NPCs and forced their interactions so I could see some of the banters I had never gotten to see before. One of the ones I triggered was Kivan & Viconia.
While I used Viconia in my first BG2 run, I never used her in BG1. I was surprised at what I found: She's actually rather nice. I kind of expected her to be more... evil.
When you meet her, she's being chased by a Flaming Fist mercenary, who is trying to take her into custody to kill her. From the interaction, he says she is wanted for murder; it doesn't really sound like it's definite or that he even really has proof. Certainly not enough to commit her to death: Viconia denies it (and, given the meeting in BG2, I kind of believe her). This is cemented for me by the mercenary's response when you say you can't allow him to take her: He sentences all of you to death. When you save her, she is incredibly grateful and pledges not to disappoint you.
I was most shocked at her interactions with Kivan. She can actually initiate a conversation with Kivan where she says something like "I know we are supposed to hate each other, but maybe we should try to get along." His response is to basically call her a drow and insult her. She'll defend herself, but eventually she may try to reason with him again. At which point he'll insult her again. She'll never outright insult him, but he has no problem doing it to her. But he's supposed to be the good-aligned NPC?
This kind of thing pops up again in BG2, specifically with Anomen.
If you keep her through ToB, in her ending, she can actually team up with Drizzit and seemingly change her alignment (if memory serves, by romancing her, you actually CAN change her alignment). So how come so many of the NPCs hate her so much? Just because she's a drow? Even Viconia seems aware of the racism against her.
Just another example of the complex relationships in this game that could slip by unnoticed.
While I used Viconia in my first BG2 run, I never used her in BG1. I was surprised at what I found: She's actually rather nice. I kind of expected her to be more... evil.
When you meet her, she's being chased by a Flaming Fist mercenary, who is trying to take her into custody to kill her. From the interaction, he says she is wanted for murder; it doesn't really sound like it's definite or that he even really has proof. Certainly not enough to commit her to death: Viconia denies it (and, given the meeting in BG2, I kind of believe her). This is cemented for me by the mercenary's response when you say you can't allow him to take her: He sentences all of you to death. When you save her, she is incredibly grateful and pledges not to disappoint you.
I was most shocked at her interactions with Kivan. She can actually initiate a conversation with Kivan where she says something like "I know we are supposed to hate each other, but maybe we should try to get along." His response is to basically call her a drow and insult her. She'll defend herself, but eventually she may try to reason with him again. At which point he'll insult her again. She'll never outright insult him, but he has no problem doing it to her. But he's supposed to be the good-aligned NPC?
This kind of thing pops up again in BG2, specifically with Anomen.
If you keep her through ToB, in her ending, she can actually team up with Drizzit and seemingly change her alignment (if memory serves, by romancing her, you actually CAN change her alignment). So how come so many of the NPCs hate her so much? Just because she's a drow? Even Viconia seems aware of the racism against her.
Just another example of the complex relationships in this game that could slip by unnoticed.
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Comments
Viconia is evil, but more like being evil and ruthless in order to survive, not for the sake of evil or mere pleasure. She says she has refused to sacrifice a human baby for Lolth as there was no point to it. This was how she got dissillusioned with Lolth.
She is no saint, she has indeed done some very evil and ruthless things (she tells more about the things she had done to a bunch of farmers, in her romance in BG2, really horrible) but they were kind of for retribution and survival. She never goes out of her way just to inflict pain and death on others. But when deserved, she never forgives and enjoys the horrible punishment she dishes throughly, and even feels proud of it. She is clearly not irredeemeble evil, and her ToB romance plays this well IMHO.
To survive drows have to commit evil deeds inside their own society.
Most of the drows that surfacers have already met are drows army or assassins.
It's easy to assume that drow's reputation is bad enough to lead to false accusation against not-that-evil-drows.
We can easily see that Montaron (neutral evil) is a remorseless and blood thirsty, only killing for money.
Viconia became evil in her society (she had to commit murders and acts of treachery to survive).
The fact she no longer worship Lolth is a good thing, but the ways she's been raised are still strong on her mind and her way to analyze the world (need to be strong to survive, ...).
So all neutral evil characters are not only evil for money... or bloodthirst.
The racism part is what makes the relationship and eventual romance so great with her. In all the two worlds she dwelled in, the hero is the only one who judges her for her actions and not what she was born as. And also the only one not to treat her like crap. It makes her want to try and be a better person. To be worthy of your belief in her. (and yes you can change her alignment)
And I think it works both ways. I forgot how angry it made me when that Paladin attacked my party in one of the Baldur Taverns because she was in my group. He was willing to attack a generally good aligned group without so much as a real conversation. Lawful Good my hindquarters. Defending her was completely worth the -9 reputation hit.
Yeah, Viccy is all soft inside, but if you tell her that you'll get a flail on your face! XD
@Ignatius I'm not sure if the concept of racism exists in Forgotten Realms... Does anyone know for sure?
Either way, it doesn't seem particularly "good" to me to meet someone and automatically try to kill them or hate them, as is the case with many good-aligned characters upon seeing / meeting Viconia.
But in overall Kivan is a good guy. Okay, so he seeks revenge, is a blood thirsty homicidial and racist jerk. Nobody is perfect. Having your girlfriend (or was she his wife?) raped/tortured to death before you does that to people. But he is good for he puts innocents before himself, he is very much willing to sacrifice himself to prevent evil guys hurting the innocents ever again.
@ajwz Who did you interpret differently and how?
If you want to bring game concepts into this world (which is to say out of thier fantasy setting) and drop a racism charge then you must have a dicussion about Western religion.
Sorry. Dungeouns and Dragons the game grew out of the fanstasy and science fiction literary generas, the fathers being C.S. Lewis and J.R.R, Tolkien. Two devout Christians. Their ethic was the Christian ethic, just like the American, Canadian, and Western Euroupean. Respect the life, property, and values of everyone. Harm noone in the pursuit of yours. In America these values are codified into law via the Bill of Rights (those are the first ten Amendments to the US Constitution)
That being said, of course good, evil, and values, are relative to and absoulute within, every culture.
To bring up racisim is so bizarre as to be mind numbing. I am always shocked at the moral relativism of younger adventure gamers. If the designers of this game wanted her to be good then her alignment would be good. In your (OP) concept of 'Good'.
I sincerly hope that the Admistrators of these forums delete this thread. This is a entertainment venue, not a protest forum. I do not wish to see BGEE become an arena for socio-plolitacal debate.
Let's keep the discussion on the game. The 'nautre' and 'values' 'inherint in computer games' should remain a three credit graduate level course in a liberal arts collage so you can rack up a six figure student loan debt learning how to blame everything on your parents so you can be justified in taking what they've earned.
Adminstrators, please delete my post. Please delete this thread.
We do NOT need to have a conversation about religion. We're talking about the way characters respond to an NPC and potentially what it means to their alignment... I think it's a really great dynamic, introduces very complex relationships, and builds a great character... THAT is what this thread is about. So far everyone has been very mature and no one has derailed this into flaming or something completely off-topic like religion. Your post is a bit uncalled for...
@Ignatius On the topic of attacking races just because they're an "evil" race - that doesn't work out so well for us in BG 2, does it?
Anyway I'm not really seeing the socio-political protest. The only one really taking it to the next level is you. Stop that. :P
If yours was a troll post please try harder next time.
If we are supposed to take you seriously... nope, just can't do it.
You droped the racism bomb. You stated that the 'good' chacater is the racist and that the 'evil' character is being oppressed.
What are you basing your concepts of good, evil, racism and oppression on?
What discussion were you hoping to provoke?
I critique your post and my thoughts are 'uncalled for...'
@CutlassJack
The OP created a discussion thread on the topics racism, alignment, and oppression. If this is not 'taking it to the next level' than what is? And by 'stop that' do you mean 'stop that or else' or 'stop that or else we will need to reeducate you'?
Adminstrators please delete my post, please delete this tread.
@and_then_or: I like your comment, but not sure it is necessary to delete. You are entirely right to say that Lewis/Tolkien created a fantasy world in its own right, although brought into it their own cultural vision. That's very, very clear. They are actually interesting discussions to have. It is also interesting to point out that the vocabulary and moral notions of our real world (in this time) very often do not fit at all in the mythical world of AD&D. "Racism" is definitely one term that does not fit well. At all.
You're right that the dark elf world and history are in sharp contrast to the other elves, and a lot of other races, but Drizzit gets a pass, why not Viconia?
I like that you said it's not so much a reflection of Kivan's alignment as his own race. I wonder how he would respond to someone like Drizzit? Or Viconia post ToB (assuming she doesn't die).
It's odd that you are making it seem like I am talking about real-world politics here and that there's something wrong with us having this conversation at all. The interactions are in the game; I didn't write them. I just saw them for the first time last night and thought they were interesting. If you are too uncomfortable to be a part of this conversation, then do not make yourself a part of it. It is going just fine.
And why don't these forums seem to have an ignore function? Geez.
@rdarken Good discussion, VIcky is a very interesting character. I am surprised no one has mentioned Korgan's very obvious reaction to Viconia. I always thought that they made Kivan a ranger first and therefore he had to be good, but once they gave him a littler personality it did not actually fit in with his alignment. Similar for Vicky, they made her a Drow so she had to be evil, and then they added the basic lines (selection/attack sounds) evil. But when they started to flesh out her character it was actually more of a chaotic neutral character.
@hzf What happens with Kagain? I didn't try them together. I did try Kagain and Yeslick, though. Yeesh.
Keldorn, the paladin in BG2, also dislike Drow. However, his disliking is more of a trust issue. He is an old and experienced paladin who probably have experience with drow being untrustworthy. This makes sense to me, for a good character.
Kivan in BG1 seems a bit closer to Korgan than he does to Keldorn.
I always found it strange that she is suited to an evil party, since to recruit her in both games you have to perform a selfless act to get her out of an execution.