Korgan, the evil dwarf fighter in BG2, strongly dislike drow. He does not cite good reason either, it is just a racial hatred of drow. This makes sense for an evil character.
Not, it makes sense for any Elf, and probably for any Dwarf as well. Independantly of their alignment.
@Ignatius I disagree on the last part of that, the notion that wanting to kill her just because she's Drow has no implication on his alignment. Taking her, and her race, out of the equation: Is it "good" in Forgotten Realms world to kill someone, anyone, just because you think they MIGHT be evil? However, I see your point that the issue of race makes it a lot more complicated because of the history.
@hzf If memory serves, Keldorn is distrustful, but not too aggressive about it. If you actually see the interaction with Kivan and Viconia together it's... A bit much.
@State_Lemming Yup, I totally agree. She doesn't seem to enjoy EVIL acts so much as she doesn't particularly like (or perhaps understand?) GOOD acts.
The OP created a discussion thread on the topics racism, alignment, and oppression. If this is not 'taking it to the next level' than what is? And by 'stop that' do you mean 'stop that or else' or 'stop that or else we will need to reeducate you'?
Neither. I meant stop trying to make this thread into something its not. The only one trying to apply real world values onto it is you. There is a huge difference between fantasy world racism and real world racism. Its a topic based on fun discorse on characters we love and what motivates them and the world around them. The topics the OP brought up are absolutely in the game and ones the Developers thought about too. Its a worthy conversation.
@Ignatius I disagree on the last part of that, the notion that wanting to kill her just because she's Drow has no implication on his alignment. Taking her, and her race, out of the equation: Is it "good" in Forgotten Realms world to kill someone, anyone, just because you think they MIGHT be evil? However, I see your point that the issue of race makes it a lot more complicated because of the history.
I do not think he wants to kill her "because she is evil" but "because she is drow", and that is very different. For an Elf wanting to kill a drow is a perfectly normal and legitimate thing to do, independantly of that drow individual actions. And vice-versa !
But this does not mean that all Elf would or should, do it. It does not mean that a drow cannot redeem itself and reject its racial heritage, nor vice-versa that an elf would once again, betray the nobility of their race.
So in your opinion, the idea of elves hating dark elves has nothing to do with alignment? ie. Elves don't dislike dark elves because dark elves are traditionally evil.
So in your opinion, the idea of elves hating dark elves has nothing to do with alignment? ie. Elves don't dislike dark elves because dark elves are traditionally evil.
No, not exactly. They dislike drows for having betrayed the elvish race; this fall from grace has gotten drows labelled as "evil", but I think it is the fall from grace and the archetypal betrayal that fuels elvish hatred for drows, and not so much their evilness which is just a consequence. Drows are being described as drow-elf and it is obvious that they are of elvish descent. This stain on their race is what, in AD&D, is intolerable to elves.
And it also works the other way: drows hate elves because the existence of the latter remind the former of who they once were, and how they decided to forge for themselves another destiny, an evil one.
You can not disassociate literature and literary construrcts from 'reality'. The point of any artistic endavore is to illustrate, example, deepen, comment on the tangible.
'Starry Night' and 'Nude Descending a Staircase' are two of the most realistic paintings I have ever seen.
You can not change the meanings of words and have language remain a viable constuct.
OP didn't say 'Kivan doesn't like Viconia', he called him a racist. What is that supposed to mean?
Last night, I spawned NPCs and forced their interactions so I could see some of the banters I had never gotten to see before. One of the ones I triggered was Kivan & Viconia.
While I used Viconia in my first BG2 run, I never used her in BG1. I was surprised at what I found: She's actually rather nice. I kind of expected her to be more... evil.
When you meet her, she's being chased by a Flaming Fist mercenary, who is trying to take her into custody to kill her. From the interaction, he says she is wanted for murder; it doesn't really sound like it's definite or that he even really has proof. Certainly not enough to commit her to death: Viconia denies it (and, given the meeting in BG2, I kind of believe her). This is cemented for me by the mercenary's response when you say you can't allow him to take her: He sentences all of you to death. When you save her, she is incredibly grateful and pledges not to disappoint you.
I was most shocked at her interactions with Kivan. She can actually initiate a conversation with Kivan where she says something like "I know we are supposed to hate each other, but maybe we should try to get along." His response is to basically call her a drow and insult her. She'll defend herself, but eventually she may try to reason with him again. At which point he'll insult her again. She'll never outright insult him, but he has no problem doing it to her. But he's supposed to be the good-aligned NPC?
This kind of thing pops up again in BG2, specifically with Anomen.
If you keep her through ToB, in her ending, she can actually team up with Drizzit and seemingly change her alignment (if memory serves, by romancing her, you actually CAN change her alignment). So how come so many of the NPCs hate her so much? Just because she's a drow? Even Viconia seems aware of the racism against her.
Just another example of the complex relationships in this game that could slip by unnoticed.
I am not sure how much you are familiar with the Forgotten Realms. But Drow are one of the worst things ever. People have very good reasons to hate them. Moreover, Shar is maybe the worst goddess of all the evil gods on FR, because while, Cyric, Talos, Bane just want to control and gain power, all that Shar wants is to end everything. She is like the apocalypse. Vici is her priestess and a drow. Not a very good combo, and not something that will convince a good character that you are to be trusted.
All this things are not something you just forget when you see a Drow girl in distress. They are liers manipulative, and evil, and as much as Lolth is evil and dark Shar is even worse. Though it might seem that Vici went for Shar for the wrong reasons. (Night being the closest thing to the Underdark). I can still understand why good characters are giving her an hard time. Aspecially good characters that can detect her alignement.
As for whether evil characters believe that they're evil: in many cases, they probably do (not that they think at all because they're made up characters, but their in-setting selves supposedly do). "Good" and "Evil" will probably have cultural definitions in any made up fantasy land, definitions to which any person of some intelligence can rate himself. It's important to remember that it isn't good as opposed to bad or inferior, it's good as opposed to evil. Surely a selfish and violent person void of moral obligations towards anyone but himself can state that he is just that, and realise that he falls under the definition of evil.
You can not disassociate literature and literary construrcts from 'reality'. The point of any artistic endavore is to illustrate, example, deepen, comment on the tangible.
'Starry Night' and 'Nude Descending a Staircase' are two of the most realistic paintings I have ever seen.
You can not change the meanings of words and have language remain a viable constuct.
OP didn't say 'Kivan doesn't like Viconia', he called him a racist. What is that supposed to mean?
The point that wildly flies over your head is that Racism in a fantasy realm and racism in the real world is entirely different. Because...wait for it...there actually are different races in a fantasy world. With vastly different cultures that dont resemble each other. In our world we're all human. (In theory)
The OP called Kivan a racist because he stated a dislike of Viconia based entirely on her race, not her actions. Which is true. I don't judge him harshly for those prejudices because in the Forgotten Realms there is some very real history to support it. However its also worth noting that everyone and their mother in BG seems to know who Drizzt is, so there is at least some evidence that not every person should be judged by the actions of their race. But its also worth noting that Kivan doesn't try to shoot Viconia at first sight either.
In most fantasy worlds races are judged by other races in pretty broad strokes. Its part of the Genre.
The point that wildly flies over your heas is that Tolkien used races as meme for Nationalism.
In most real worlds people are juged by other people in pretty broad storkes. Its part of Life.
I have lived lived and worked in various parts of the US and in Europe and seen Tolkien's point exampled adinfinitum. Surely he wasn't trying to trying to promote the Christian ethic of 'Love thy brother" was he? Surely he wasn't trying to illustrate both the folly and necessity of war in Lord of the Rings, was he? Stop calling me Sherly.
Ever notice how the ignoramus is a film or tv show has a southern accent? And no I'm not from the south nor am I a praticing Christian. But I sure do love me some 'we are all equal before the law'.
The alingment system is a moral construct. What is this based on? What on earth are you people talking about?
@Hempo I agree that there are some "evil" characters in the setting that can class themselves as such, but with the alignment choices being what they are, it's entirely possible that someone who falls under the "evil" category never sees themselves as evil. It seems like anyone with the mindset of "I come before anyone else" is considered to have an evil alignment, even when they don't actively set out to terrorize/do evil acts/ etc. That's more the limits of the 9 alignment system than anything else, but Viconia certainly isn't the only supposed "evil" character that, well...isn't. And on the other hand, you get the supposed "good" characters acting Lawful Stupid.
I guess in the end it comes down to the alignment system being what others perceive you as, rather than your true alignment. It is society that is ultimately the judge of what is acceptable behavior, so it would make sense for society to be the judge of someone's alignment. So we end up with Lawful Stupid and -not-so-evil-Evil characters.
@rdarken When you mentioned Anomen, did you mean his general behavior, or his behavior towards Viconia specifically? If I remember right, his alignment is actually neutral before he passes/fails his test, so you would be right if you thought he didn't seem like a "good" character. Before he passed his test, he wasn't. I actually thought his reaction to Viconia was rather polite compared to, say, Keldorn. His opinion was basically "bring her along or not, I don't really have an opinion either way (but apparently he thought she was good-looking and had to point that out...so maybe that was one reason he was so nice).
Keldorn on the other hand has quite a strong reaction to her. It's actually a little startling when it happens, because up to that point he seemed to be a remarkably good example of how not to be Lawful Stupid. Even if you recruit someone like Edwin, he doesn't intentionally pick a fight with him. The fight that breaks out between the two of them is completely Edwin's fault. He basically just snaps and attacks Keldorn for looking at him funny. But when you try to recruit Viconia, he is very hostile towards her.
Keldorn on the other hand has quite a strong reaction to her. It's actually a little startling when it happens, because up to that point he seemed to be a remarkably good example of how not to be Lawful Stupid. Even if you recruit someone like Edwin, he doesn't intentionally pick a fight with him. The fight that breaks out between the two of them is completely Edwin's fault. He basically just snaps and attacks Keldorn for looking at him funny. But when you try to recruit Viconia, he is very hostile towards her.
Again I fail to understand what is so surprising, or worthy of a "Lawful Stupid" re-alignment, to see either Kivan or later, Keldorn, have such strong reactions against Viconia.
It's been a loonnngg time since I played BG 2 all the way through, so I could be completely mistaken. I remembered Anomen being more hostile than Keldorn, but it seems I am wrong.
The way some of them react to Viconia can't really be described with a better word than racist. I mean, Keldorn obviously hates her because she is drow, despite his being so reverent of Drizzt that he'll leave your party and attack you, if you pick a fight. He's obviously aware of the fact that Drow doesn't universally equal evil, but still chooses to embrace his prejudice rather than have a slightly open mind.
Then, whether the racism is justified/understandable is the real question. Any rational person would assume that you're looking at something evil if you're staring a demon, devil, or drow in the eyes. That wouldn't take away from said person's good alignment. If, however, this person would be entirely unwilling or incapable of revising his stance when it comes to certain individuals when faced with proof that contradicts it, that would make him less good than had he been able and willing. That's how I see it anyway, and I think it makes sense.
So on the original post. Kivan is racist, and with good cause, it doesn't make him less good. If he refuses to change his mind even when/if Viconia proves herself to him (as Drizzt already has), then he's a dick, and less good because of it.
Here is the difference between racism in the real world and anti drow sentiment in Faerun.
From Wikipedia -
the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[21]
So you get people in real life hating on others for whatever reason.
- His/her skin colour is different - They smell funny - They want to kill us all because they are devil worshipers - etc
Well...
- Drow elves living in the Underdark almost exclusively worship a REAL EVIL GODDESS. No other real point of view, she's evil and bat shit crazy. She wants to eat your children. she revels in your misery. She picks on fat kids. She doesn't like Cricket.
- This same Goddess was once married Corellon Larethian (the king of the elvish gods) before she tried to take over the Seldarine (the council of Elvish Gods) by teaming up with other evil gods and demons. Corellon Banished her from the plane where they lived and cursed her to like a spider for all time.
(This also sets a precedent for elves NOT killing extremely dangerous/evil members of their own race, instead coming up with some weird punishment that only makes them more powerful and evil. Like Jon Irenicus for example.)
- The dark elves (before they looked like drow) were involved in a civil war with another elven kingdom. In large parts they reverted back to the worship of Lolth and started doing great stuff like summoning demons and eating babies.
- At the end of said war, the demon summoning and baby eating got to such an extent that Corellon Larethian, that good old king of the Elven gods, cursed the ENTIRE dark elf race to have their current appearance. The other surface elves then drove them underground.
- This same group of Elves have spent the past 10 000 years launching random raids onto the surface of Faerun to kill surface dwellers. These surface dwellers tend to be random farmers and/or elvish women and children. In fact, if you kill a elf child you get double high five points in mainstream Drow society.
- 99% of Drow revel in their actions. This is because their society based around an endless cycle of lies about the past of their people.
Now this is where it gets really confusing.
Because is it still right to discriminate against Drow due to their race? The xenophobic reasons that humans have in real life don't apply. You're actually dealing with factual actions and beliefs.
@Ignatius I did say he's an example of how not to be Lawful Stupid, but I guess I wasn't too clear on my opinion. I still think Keldorn is a good character, but you have to admit, his reaction to Viconia is very odd, especially considering his reaction to Drizzt later.
And I do get the whole "she worships an evil god," but considering he hadn't spoken a single word to her, all he knew about her at that point was that she was a Drow and his evil radar was pointing at her. He's way more tolerant of characters who are far more blatantly evil than Viconia, so it makes me wonder why there's such a big reaction to her, especially when he's so respectful to Drizzt.
On the surface of it, it looks like he hates her because she is Drow more than because she is evil; or otherwise why would he be so accepting of Edwin? He's not only evil, but a Red Wizard. But if he hated her because she is Drow, why is he so friendly to Drizzt?
For the drow in general, they are evil. D&D is not a shades of grey setting when it comes to good and evil, they're clearly defined standards and when something is evil, it is evil, no questions asked. Detect Evil, protection from evil and so on wouldn't really work if good and evil were subjective terms that are up for discussion.
If something is evil in the setting, it's just that.
And regardless of that, by our standards the drow are an evil society that trumps even the worst societies mankind has to offer such as the Pinochet junta, Pol Pot, Hitler or Stalin.
@Ignatius I did say he's an example of how not to be Lawful Stupid, but I guess I wasn't too clear on my opinion. I still think Keldorn is a good character, but you have to admit, his reaction to Viconia is very odd, especially considering his reaction to Drizzt later.
And I do get the whole "she worships an evil god," but considering he hadn't spoken a single word to her, all he knew about her at that point was that she was a Drow and his evil radar was pointing at her. He's way more tolerant of characters who are far more blatantly evil than Viconia, so it makes me wonder why there's such a big reaction to her, especially when he's so respectful to Drizzt.
On the surface of it, it looks like he hates her because she is Drow more than because she is evil; or otherwise why would he be so accepting of Edwin? He's not only evil, but a Red Wizard. But if he hated her because she is Drow, why is he so friendly to Drizzt?
Ok, I think I understand better now. Still in the Forgotten Realms, unlike evilness amongst say humans which depends on the individual and depending on how you look at it, their intents/actions, the entire drow race is classified as evil. Even worse: after a fall from grace due to an intentional act of will. Unlike creatures like orcs or trolls. An analogy would be considering them as "fallen angels". The fact that there is a Drizzt and potentially a Viconia (although a long shot), does not change anything. In fact it would make sense that even an Evil Human, for instance, expresses very strong prejudices against row as a race in the Forgotten Realms.
For me typically, Kivan's reaction in parrticular is that of a firm soul who does not wish to let any sort of opportunity for the drow evilness to strike and destroy the party. Again, think of Sam and Gollum.
Of course, the limitations of the era play a role, but it is interesting that we (or the NPCs) don't think twice when we encounter a "good" version of cannon fodder races. Isn't there a gnoll in the BG1 somewhere that talks to us?
Also, sort of related, there's that incident where we basically slaughter an entire Xvart village and our companions (I believe Kivan included) comments on how we were the aggressors and should try to avoid doing something like that again. That's one of the reasons I find it hard to swallow his aggression toward Viconia. It's not just a distrust; he HATES her.
@rdarken I had Anomen in my party in pretty much every run of BG2, so I remember his reaction pretty well. First he says she's attractive, then says that he doesn't care if you bring her or not. Keldorn says he won't stand for you bringing an evil Drow in your group. So Anomen is definitely nicer than Keldorn.
@Quineloe But what makes someone "evil" in D&D? Not everyone is a baby-killing monster. Some people steal because they have to, some are simply too jaded to trust people or have taken a "I come first" stance to life. There's always shades of grey when you're talking about evil, even in D&D. Otherwise everyone would be executed for the most minor crimes.
Also, since you brought up real world examples; I'll use Nazi Germany as my example since I know the most about that one. It was a select few that were the true evil. There were also some shining examples of true heroism among them. Of the majority of the population, most of the regular citizens fell into a few categories; they were intentionally blinding themselves to what was going on, they actually had no idea what was going on, or they were too scared to do anything to stop them. While some people may judge them as being "evil" or at least horrible people for not doing anything to prevent what happened, many of them were just ordinary people that are now defined by what a few people in power did.
It's nice and simple to just say someone's completely good or evil, but life, even fantasy setting life, is never that simple.
@Ignatius It does make sense, although I do remember that even Edwin was very "friendly" towards Viconia. Apparently being attractive is more important than being a member of an evil society. Kivan's reaction is understandable, because it was his people that were the most hurt by the Drow. I too would be interested to see what his reaction would be to Drizzt. If he's just as horrible to him, than I'll change my opinion on it being a justified reaction.
Reading through this thread, most people are taking a very modern viewpoint on the entire thing. Until very recently it was entirely normal to fear and mistrust foreigners. In fact, in a lot of real-world places right now it's entirely normal. If you read through literature more than a hundred years old you come across morally "good" characters casually discriminating against outsiders and/or very perjorative stereotypes all the time.
It was accepted, it was normal. It wasn't right, but non-discrimination has only been the norm/gold standard/whatever for about 50 years. Look at the Civil Rights movement in the US, or even in the 1980s in the UK where there were still "No Blacks, No Irish" signs outside some pubs.
What's difficult is teasing out where this fear, mistrust and even hatred is the society around an individual and where it's the individual themself. To be a good Englishman for much of the past 1000 years society demanded that you hate the French, and there are similar examples the world over. It takes a strong-willed and open-minded person to stand against that.
It's nice and simple to just say someone's completely good or evil, but life, even fantasy setting life, is never that simple.
True.
But you don't always have the luxury or the time to find out al nuances.
Suppose you really are member of a small group that is involved in a life or death struggle against a great evil, where danger and death lurk around every corner, where survival depends on complete trust in your team members. Along comes this unknown dark elf, member of a group who are renowned for torture, bloodlust, betrayal and all kinds of pure evil, but who says that she really is an exception to the rule - well, kinda. You would be stark raving mad to take her into your party. Keldorn or Kivan are quite right to protest.
It's nice and simple to just say someone's completely good or evil, but life, even fantasy setting life, is never that simple.
True.
But you don't always have the luxury or the time to find out al nuances.
Suppose you really are member of a small group that is involved in a life or death struggle against a great evil, where danger and death lurk around every corner, where survival depends on complete trust in your team members. Along comes this unknown dark elf, member of a group who are renowned for torture, bloodlust, betrayal and all kinds of pure evil, but who says that she really is an exception to the rule - well, kinda. You would be stark raving mad to take her into your party. Keldorn or Kivan are quite right to protest.
But by the same token, your group has taken time to help out every random farmer or tavern drunk with an sob story the entire length of the sword coast and are approched by a woman fleeing for her life, begging you for help. The person trying to kill her isnt interested in providing proof to his claims or even having a discussion about it. Do you stand idly by and do nothing purely based on her race when she's clearly not the aggressor? I think not, if you're a good sort.
If you had doubts about her tale then it would actually be sensible, not mad, to take her into your party after rescuing her. Better to keep her near til you have enough information to judge her properly, than let her run loose. And by BG2, your character likely does have prior history with Viconia and she's already proven herself to you. Certainly more than Keldorn has at that point in the tale.
Not to mention the fact that, in BG2, she's tied to a stake and is about to be burned alive. Is there another instance in the series that we see that kind of behavior? It doesn't seem to be commonplace in the world of BG, so it's an especially cruel punishment.
A good sort would not normally stand by if a lynching occurs, I agree. But the mere fact that a person is being lynched does not make the victim a good person, either. Rather, it somewhat encreases the chances of the opposite being the case. And the chance of the opposite being the case with a drow is huge to begin with.
A good sort would not put his life and that of his team members in the hands of someone who can reasonably be expected to be really evil by making her a member of the team. Indecision, weakness or excessive moral grandstanding aren't necessarily the traits of a good person.
Yes, turning her loose isn't ideal either, but it's the only thing you can do, if no independent judiciary is available to take her off your hands. And if you are really convinced she is TOO much of a danger, the brave thing to do is to do what needs to be done yourself.
(BTW, If you knew Viconia beforehand: of course that's a different matter.)
Comments
@hzf If memory serves, Keldorn is distrustful, but not too aggressive about it. If you actually see the interaction with Kivan and Viconia together it's... A bit much.
@State_Lemming Yup, I totally agree. She doesn't seem to enjoy EVIL acts so much as she doesn't particularly like (or perhaps understand?) GOOD acts.
But this does not mean that all Elf would or should, do it. It does not mean that a drow cannot redeem itself and reject its racial heritage, nor vice-versa that an elf would once again, betray the nobility of their race.
You can not disassociate literature and literary construrcts from 'reality'. The point of any artistic endavore is to illustrate, example, deepen, comment on the tangible.
'Starry Night' and 'Nude Descending a Staircase' are two of the most realistic paintings I have ever seen.
You can not change the meanings of words and have language remain a viable constuct.
OP didn't say 'Kivan doesn't like Viconia', he called him a racist. What is that supposed to mean?
All this things are not something you just forget when you see a Drow girl in distress. They are liers manipulative, and evil, and as much as Lolth is evil and dark Shar is even worse. Though it might seem that Vici went for Shar for the wrong reasons. (Night being the closest thing to the Underdark). I can still understand why good characters are giving her an hard time. Aspecially good characters that can detect her alignement.
The OP called Kivan a racist because he stated a dislike of Viconia based entirely on her race, not her actions. Which is true. I don't judge him harshly for those prejudices because in the Forgotten Realms there is some very real history to support it. However its also worth noting that everyone and their mother in BG seems to know who Drizzt is, so there is at least some evidence that not every person should be judged by the actions of their race. But its also worth noting that Kivan doesn't try to shoot Viconia at first sight either.
In most fantasy worlds races are judged by other races in pretty broad strokes. Its part of the Genre.
The point that wildly flies over your heas is that Tolkien used races as meme for Nationalism.
In most real worlds people are juged by other people in pretty broad storkes. Its part of Life.
I have lived lived and worked in various parts of the US and in Europe and seen Tolkien's point exampled adinfinitum. Surely he wasn't trying to trying to promote the Christian ethic of 'Love thy brother" was he? Surely he wasn't trying to illustrate both the folly and necessity of war in Lord of the Rings, was he? Stop calling me Sherly.
Ever notice how the ignoramus is a film or tv show has a southern accent? And no I'm not from the south nor am I a praticing Christian. But I sure do love me some 'we are all equal before the law'.
The alingment system is a moral construct. What is this based on? What on earth are you people talking about?
I guess in the end it comes down to the alignment system being what others perceive you as, rather than your true alignment. It is society that is ultimately the judge of what is acceptable behavior, so it would make sense for society to be the judge of someone's alignment. So we end up with Lawful Stupid and -not-so-evil-Evil characters.
@rdarken When you mentioned Anomen, did you mean his general behavior, or his behavior towards Viconia specifically? If I remember right, his alignment is actually neutral before he passes/fails his test, so you would be right if you thought he didn't seem like a "good" character. Before he passed his test, he wasn't. I actually thought his reaction to Viconia was rather polite compared to, say, Keldorn. His opinion was basically "bring her along or not, I don't really have an opinion either way (but apparently he thought she was good-looking and had to point that out...so maybe that was one reason he was so nice).
Keldorn on the other hand has quite a strong reaction to her. It's actually a little startling when it happens, because up to that point he seemed to be a remarkably good example of how not to be Lawful Stupid. Even if you recruit someone like Edwin, he doesn't intentionally pick a fight with him. The fight that breaks out between the two of them is completely Edwin's fault. He basically just snaps and attacks Keldorn for looking at him funny. But when you try to recruit Viconia, he is very hostile towards her.
Then, whether the racism is justified/understandable is the real question. Any rational person would assume that you're looking at something evil if you're staring a demon, devil, or drow in the eyes. That wouldn't take away from said person's good alignment. If, however, this person would be entirely unwilling or incapable of revising his stance when it comes to certain individuals when faced with proof that contradicts it, that would make him less good than had he been able and willing. That's how I see it anyway, and I think it makes sense.
So on the original post. Kivan is racist, and with good cause, it doesn't make him less good. If he refuses to change his mind even when/if Viconia proves herself to him (as Drizzt already has), then he's a dick, and less good because of it.
From Wikipedia -
the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.[21]
So you get people in real life hating on others for whatever reason.
- His/her skin colour is different
- They smell funny
- They want to kill us all because they are devil worshipers
- etc
Well...
- Drow elves living in the Underdark almost exclusively worship a REAL EVIL GODDESS. No other real point of view, she's evil and bat shit crazy. She wants to eat your children. she revels in your misery. She picks on fat kids. She doesn't like Cricket.
- This same Goddess was once married Corellon Larethian (the king of the elvish gods) before she tried to take over the Seldarine (the council of Elvish Gods) by teaming up with other evil gods and demons. Corellon Banished her from the plane where they lived and cursed her to like a spider for all time.
(This also sets a precedent for elves NOT killing extremely dangerous/evil members of their own race, instead coming up with some weird punishment that only makes them more powerful and evil. Like Jon Irenicus for example.)
- The dark elves (before they looked like drow) were involved in a civil war with another elven kingdom. In large parts they reverted back to the worship of Lolth and started doing great stuff like summoning demons and eating babies.
- At the end of said war, the demon summoning and baby eating got to such an extent that Corellon Larethian, that good old king of the Elven gods, cursed the ENTIRE dark elf race to have their current appearance. The other surface elves then drove them underground.
- This same group of Elves have spent the past 10 000 years launching random raids onto the surface of Faerun to kill surface dwellers. These surface dwellers tend to be random farmers and/or elvish women and children. In fact, if you kill a elf child you get double high five points in mainstream Drow society.
- 99% of Drow revel in their actions. This is because their society based around an endless cycle of lies about the past of their people.
Now this is where it gets really confusing.
Because is it still right to discriminate against Drow due to their race? The xenophobic reasons that humans have in real life don't apply. You're actually dealing with factual actions and beliefs.
But does that justify anti Drow discrimination?
I still don't think it does.
And I do get the whole "she worships an evil god," but considering he hadn't spoken a single word to her, all he knew about her at that point was that she was a Drow and his evil radar was pointing at her. He's way more tolerant of characters who are far more blatantly evil than Viconia, so it makes me wonder why there's such a big reaction to her, especially when he's so respectful to Drizzt.
On the surface of it, it looks like he hates her because she is Drow more than because she is evil; or otherwise why would he be so accepting of Edwin? He's not only evil, but a Red Wizard. But if he hated her because she is Drow, why is he so friendly to Drizzt?
If something is evil in the setting, it's just that.
And regardless of that, by our standards the drow are an evil society that trumps even the worst societies mankind has to offer such as the Pinochet junta, Pol Pot, Hitler or Stalin.
For me typically, Kivan's reaction in parrticular is that of a firm soul who does not wish to let any sort of opportunity for the drow evilness to strike and destroy the party. Again, think of Sam and Gollum.
Also, sort of related, there's that incident where we basically slaughter an entire Xvart village and our companions (I believe Kivan included) comments on how we were the aggressors and should try to avoid doing something like that again. That's one of the reasons I find it hard to swallow his aggression toward Viconia. It's not just a distrust; he HATES her.
@Quineloe But what makes someone "evil" in D&D? Not everyone is a baby-killing monster. Some people steal because they have to, some are simply too jaded to trust people or have taken a "I come first" stance to life. There's always shades of grey when you're talking about evil, even in D&D. Otherwise everyone would be executed for the most minor crimes.
Also, since you brought up real world examples; I'll use Nazi Germany as my example since I know the most about that one. It was a select few that were the true evil. There were also some shining examples of true heroism among them. Of the majority of the population, most of the regular citizens fell into a few categories; they were intentionally blinding themselves to what was going on, they actually had no idea what was going on, or they were too scared to do anything to stop them. While some people may judge them as being "evil" or at least horrible people for not doing anything to prevent what happened, many of them were just ordinary people that are now defined by what a few people in power did.
It's nice and simple to just say someone's completely good or evil, but life, even fantasy setting life, is never that simple.
@Ignatius It does make sense, although I do remember that even Edwin was very "friendly" towards Viconia. Apparently being attractive is more important than being a member of an evil society. Kivan's reaction is understandable, because it was his people that were the most hurt by the Drow. I too would be interested to see what his reaction would be to Drizzt. If he's just as horrible to him, than I'll change my opinion on it being a justified reaction.
It was accepted, it was normal. It wasn't right, but non-discrimination has only been the norm/gold standard/whatever for about 50 years. Look at the Civil Rights movement in the US, or even in the 1980s in the UK where there were still "No Blacks, No Irish" signs outside some pubs.
What's difficult is teasing out where this fear, mistrust and even hatred is the society around an individual and where it's the individual themself. To be a good Englishman for much of the past 1000 years society demanded that you hate the French, and there are similar examples the world over. It takes a strong-willed and open-minded person to stand against that.
"I find it hard to swall his aggression toward Viconia. It's not just a distrust; he HATES her."
Remove Kivan from your party and, if your really displeased by his opinion, kill him. This is afterall a role-playing game.
But you don't always have the luxury or the time to find out al nuances.
Suppose you really are member of a small group that is involved in a life or death struggle against a great evil, where danger and death lurk around every corner, where survival depends on complete trust in your team members. Along comes this unknown dark elf, member of a group who are renowned for torture, bloodlust, betrayal and all kinds of pure evil, but who says that she really is an exception to the rule - well, kinda. You would be stark raving mad to take her into your party. Keldorn or Kivan are quite right to protest.
If you had doubts about her tale then it would actually be sensible, not mad, to take her into your party after rescuing her. Better to keep her near til you have enough information to judge her properly, than let her run loose. And by BG2, your character likely does have prior history with Viconia and she's already proven herself to you. Certainly more than Keldorn has at that point in the tale.
A good sort would not normally stand by if a lynching occurs, I agree. But the mere fact that a person is being lynched does not make the victim a good person, either. Rather, it somewhat encreases the chances of the opposite being the case. And the chance of the opposite being the case with a drow is huge to begin with.
A good sort would not put his life and that of his team members in the hands of someone who can reasonably be expected to be really evil by making her a member of the team. Indecision, weakness or excessive moral grandstanding aren't necessarily the traits of a good person.
Yes, turning her loose isn't ideal either, but it's the only thing you can do, if no independent judiciary is available to take her off your hands. And if you are really convinced she is TOO much of a danger, the brave thing to do is to do what needs to be done yourself.
(BTW, If you knew Viconia beforehand: of course that's a different matter.)