Interesting aside; there was a mod called Virtue Mod for BG2 that gave you a virtue rating that moved the protagonists alignment based on certain decisions that had a moral factor, as opposed to, and sometimes in conjunction with, simple repute. It moved your alignment between between good, neutral and evil, so it made sure that if you played a certain way, your alignment was going to reflect it on that axis, eventually. Bad news for paladins trying to play it greedy-like but aware of all the reputation affecting decisions.
Back to OP and accurate depiction of NPC alignment; I take into account a characters statistics as well when determining motivation. Looking at Kivan; we have a simple mind, maybe he's been places, seen things, but it's simple nonetheless. Then we also see that his eloquence and ability to communicate effectively is somewhat lacking. The way I perceive it is that Viconia is Kivan's mental superior, and is goading him into the modern-day faux pa of a man being abusive to an innocuous female.
I believe she is aware of who the PC is, by that I don't mean Bhaalspawn, but their cloistered sensibilities. Perhaps I'm reading too far into it, but I see 10int, 14wis, 8cha being trumped handily by 16int, 15wis, 14cha. It's a mind-game and it's appropriate, she has a history (by which I mean a future) of mind-games, look at the hot/cold romance.
Also, the Drow matriarchal impulse seems driven by more than a DOWNWITHMEN reflex. I think there's some emotional sado-masochism happening that gives them the jibblies in effecting total war against a person, but I'm too tired to remember where I picked up on that, probably something to do with the Phaere-Solaufein plot, which would make that point about a subtle as a Rashemi battle-cry. Though I've read enough Drizzt, Jarlaxle and (newerchick?) to be suitably comforted by my opinion that female Drow dominance is complete, and perseveres through facades of nicety.
Here's an interesting question, do we know what happens to Kivan after BG? I don't know myself, but I posit he learned to regret his darthiir mouth later-on. That is neutral evil.
The way I would take those conversations, is me standing beside Kivan, eyeful of distrust at Viconia's proffered peace-pipe just the same, but on the heels of his backbarking would be a good slap upside his head. He should smile, thank her and continue watching his back, probably more-so.
Though, if there are lines I missed about mutual enmity between Vicky and Kivan then I've just gone a made a lengthy argument that amounts to arse, but I've only ever seen her being nice (to him).
Edit: So I just crit for a wall of text, but it was building up throughout and I couldn't wear my lurker hat anymore. It's my hope that this was an interesting twist the author's conjured, as I imagine them not to be looking glasses through which they hope to show us a depressing facet of human reality, but spinners of scintillating stories expertly crafted to entertain and delight folk like me and you. The Drow theater of conflict with surfacers had been opened for 10 years+ before Baldur's Gate was released after all, plenty of time to steepen the intrigue.
What actions? what make you think she is not evil?
The reason Viconia gets exiled in the first place is because she refused to kill an infant. When she arrived on the surface (prior to meeting Charname) she didn't do anything evil. She ended up being kept as a concubine by some merchant and then fled after being falsely accused of killing him. In Beregost (after BG1 but before BG2) Viconia tried to start a life for herself on a farm. She made friends with a local farmer and treated her neighbors with respect. They secretly plotted against her because she was a Drow, eventually gang raped her, beat her, and left her for dead. She killed them, but only in retaliation for what they did to her, which doesn't really seem evil. It also makes sense that she wouldn't really trust humans after that or like them very much since they hurt her so much after pretending to be her friends. In BG2, Viconia was just walking down a city street when she got kidnapped just for being Drow. She hadn't committed any crime, they were going to burn her just because of what she was not because of anything they thought she had actually done.
Viconia does have some negative banter with some of the other NPCs, such as Aerie, but I don't think that in itself makes her evil. There's a big difference between insulting someone and physically attacking them. Sure, Viconia isn't the nicest person in the world, at least not in her interactions with some characters, but she doesn't go out of her way to cause trouble either, nor does she actually hurt anyone (except in response to others attacking her) unless you tell her to. It also makes a lot of sense when you think about it. A person who has been through so many traumatic events like she has and was constantly betrayed by everyone she thought she could trust, would likely be a bit messed up when it came to normal interactions with other people.
Kill all the elves. Put them in camps, clip their fucking ears. Break their glass bones, throw their disgusting hairless bodies in an ember, 99% of our problems will instantly vanish.
ARKdeEREH, there must be a reason that Viconia is Neutral Evil - otherwise, when you meet her, she would be of another (non-evil) alignment if she was not evil. Just because she has not (according to her, btw) committed obviously evil acts on the surface, certainly does not mean she is not evil!
Personally, she is a cleric of Shar (an evil Goddess). She makes no secret of that. This means that to remain in Shar's favor (and she does, because she can cast spells over 1st and 2nd level, when high enough level to do so) that she dutifully maintains the correct rites as a Priestess of Shar.
We do see that later in BG2, that it is possible that she falls out of favor with Shar (one possible ending) - but that is far off in a possible future for her.
We actually do not know much about Viconia, really. We only know that which she, herself, reveals to us. And as she is first of all, a Drow female, and second of all, Neutral Evil, to trust what she says without proof is foolhardy, to say the least.
Viconia does have some negative banter with some of the other NPCs, such as Aerie, but I don't think that in itself makes her evil. There's a big difference between insulting someone and physically attacking them. Sure, Viconia isn't the nicest person in the world, at least not in her interactions with some characters, but she doesn't go out of her way to cause trouble either, nor does she actually hurt anyone (except in response to others attacking her) unless you tell her to. It also makes a lot of sense when you think about it. A person who has been through so many traumatic events like she has and was constantly betrayed by everyone she thought she could trust, would likely be a bit messed up when it came to normal interactions with other people.
First of all, Viconia is a Stranger in a Strange Land, totally alone and without any sort of retreat to safety or security. She cannot go back to the Underdark, where worse than death awaits...she is stranded on the surface.
Second, the Strange Land she has been "exiled" to wants her dead. Only the PC and his/her party doesn't, it seems...(and due to her experiences with the surfacers, I rather suspect that Viconia has a very healthy amount of distrust to sow, not to mention that it is a natural state for her to do so).
Third, Drow expect to be constantly betrayed by everyone and trust no-one, so no, Viconia is in no way a bit "messed up" in that sense when it comes to "normal interactions" with other people. Viconia, as a Drow, cannot have any "normal interactions" with surface people!! They fear Drow, and for very good reason! Likewise, the Drow female mindset is basically alien to the surface world.
Hardly a basis for any type of interaction, let alone "normal".
As for what has happened to her on the surface - well, as a Drow, she really wouldn't expect any other type of treatment (well, probably expected worse, really), and is probably amazed that she has not been treated worse. Drow do NOT treat exiles well, and members of fallen Houses get treated exceptionally bad - especially those who have lost the favor of Lolth!
The surface has nothing on the Drow in the area of depravity, torture, and the inflicting of pain. The Drow have perfected such as elvenly as possible, and have made it into an artform.
I think Kivan's behaviour needs to be seen in context with the world in which this game plays out. The fact is that in this setting, alignment is sort of an "aura" that a person projects(since there are spells that only work against some alignments, protection from evil, holy smite, et.c.) and not just a fluffy code of conduct that people assign to each other/selves. With that in mind, Viconia actually is neutral evil, we know this from her character sheet, or having our paladins cast detect evil, or mages/priests cast know alignment. We also know this through the fact that when her magic resistance doesn't work, holy smite will harm her.
As such, I think we have to assume that Kivan knows this. After all, what really happens during all those 8 hour rest sessions? Are we to assume that even though we as the players never cast know alignment/detect evil, Kivan doesn't ask any passing paladins at any point to do so for him? Hell, why wouldn't a level 8 Kivan cast Detect Evil himself?
Given that, he has every reason to distrust her, racism, elven hate and drow history notwithstanding. Even deliberately abusing her could seem justified, seeing as he would have to assume that her behaviour is a plain lie and that she is plotting to kill him in his sleep.
That being said, the game is far from complete with regards to character interactions like these. It would take tons of extra dialogue in order for the characters to actually stay "in character" for all encounters. It's entirely possible that the original writers of the game dialogue simply thought that "hey, elf vs drow, we should probably write something!" with regards to Kivan vs. Viccy but that the work is simply incomplete.
Extra edit: Hell, for all we know her alignment might originally have been an oversight. Maybe whoever assigned her alignment didn't really have anything to do with writing her dialogue, or if her writer/creator is the same person, just didn't really care much about what alignment was, or figured having a non-Drizzt drow as non-evil was just too far-fetched. But if it's not a mistake, she's simply evil, Kivan knows it, I think that's about as much justification he needs in order to hate/distrust her.
When you meet her, she's being chased by a Flaming Fist mercenary, who is trying to take her into custody to kill her. From the interaction, he says she is wanted for murder; it doesn't really sound like it's definite or that he even really has proof. Certainly not enough to commit her to death: Viconia denies it (and, given the meeting in BG2, I kind of believe her). This is cemented for me by the mercenary's response when you say you can't allow him to take her: He sentences all of you to death. When you save her, she is incredibly grateful and pledges not to disappoint you.
I was most shocked at her interactions with Kivan. She can actually initiate a conversation with Kivan where she says something like "I know we are supposed to hate each other, but maybe we should try to get along." His response is to basically call her a drow and insult her. She'll defend herself, but eventually she may try to reason with him again. At which point he'll insult her again. She'll never outright insult him, but he has no problem doing it to her. But he's supposed to be the good-aligned NPC?
IMO, BG1 Viconia is wrongly characterized as an evil-aligned char. Her bio states that she went up her evil drow brethren, and sacrificed EVERYTHING as a result - those are NOT the actions of neutral evil chars, who put power and wealth above everything. She's really a true or chaotic neutral char.
She's also a sympathetic char, victimized solely because of the color of her skin. When I play as a good-aligned char (and especially as a paladin), I feel she is the kind of person I should be looking to shelter and protect. And as you correctly noted, it's Kivan, not Vic, who comes off like the "bad guy" in their encounters. In fact, when each one dies, Vic's solemnly says, "Kivan and I never understood eachother," whereas Kivan declares, "May Viconia's soul ROT IN HELL!!"
BG2 does a better job of portraying Viconia as evil - though even then, the "evil" is mostly just "creepiness" rather than outright maliciousness.
Plus, she tries to extend an olive branch to him and he stomps on it.
This.
Not only that, but she tells him outright, "I no longer worship Lolth!," but he will completely disregard her words and continue to persecute her for supposedly worshiping Lolth.
Besides, if good chars can overlook the fact that Drizzt is a drow, why not the same for Viconia?
Viconia is evil indeed, NEUTRAL evil - she doesn't wanna see the world burn just for fun, but she delights in obtaining power for herself.
NOT true - she gave up all the power she had when she went up against her drow brethren, and now lives helpless, isolated, and persecuted on the surface. Those are the actions of a neutral, not evil, char.
It was mentioned earlier in the thread but people seem to have ignored it (possibly because of how it was casually written), but, The Drow formerly known as the Dhaerow (meaning traitor in elvish) are actually 2 separate races of "Dark Elves" only 1 of these two races was inherently evil those dark elves were known as the Ilythiiri, whos patron deity was Araushnee the weaver (now known as Lolth, pronounced Loalth) During the second crown war arushnee sent a balor by the name of wendonai among the Ilythiiri and over the 2000 or so years leading upto the 4th crown war he spread his "taint" among the ilythiiri who become increasingly more sadistic.
At the end of the 4th crown war the elven nations banded together to banish the Ilythiiri for numerous atrocities (picture nuclear warfare waged with high magic instead of bombs as well as the worst parts of our own world wars). This banishment bound ALL dark elves not just the illythiiri this included the Miyeritar dark elves (who were not evil) the Miyeritar being banished in addition to the Illythiiri was an unintentional side effect of the highmagic that was cast (most high magic has unintentional side effects). The Miyeritar were almost wiped out by sun elves during the second crown war, this has caused a massive population imbalance between the Miyeritar and illythiiri in the underdark. Miyeritar drow are more likely to seek out "bonds" and are often drawn to one another without realizing it and are often discontent with drow life, Illythiiri drow tend not to be drawn to each other and are less discontent with drow life. There is no way to distinguish Miyeritar drow from Illythiiri drow physically and most drow do not even realize that they are of 2 different heritages.
The decent of the Dhaerow mirrored the banishment of Araushnee from the elven pantheon.
Recent events (very much post Baulders gate) have seen the remaining Myeritar Dark Elves (as well as any drow who accepted the redemption of Eilistraee) freed from the drow curse and they have resumed their original complexions (Black Hair and Dark Brown skin, dark eye colors; shades of brown/green).
I always half expected those two to start making out any second. It would be the 90's action movie thing to do. Bicker for 3/4 of the plot then suddenly engage in passionate kissing. Good times, good times.
SharGuidesMyHand, where are you getting your information regarding Viconia here? Oh yeah, from Viconia herself.
You know she is Neutral Evil, right? I mean...this is a fact. Take a look at that character sheet. Also, she is a Priestess of Shar.
What she then tells you, you trust it? Really? I bet you are male...hehe. Drow females are known for wrapping males around their fingers...
Kivan is correct here - you cannot trust the Drow biatch! She is not truly "extending an olive branch here" - she is just trying to lull him into a false sense of security (as she has you). You have to actually put yourself in Kivan's shoes here to understand his reaction. He is face-to-face with the ultimate enemy of his race, a Drow female. She is admittedly a Priestess of Shar, certainly evil, and is present 24/7! She has the favor of the PC!! Kivan is obviously on edge, paranoid, and probably feeling he is in a hopeless position to do anything about it other than kill her as soon as possible.
Of course he rebuffs her rather obvious attempts to lull him! He states so in no uncertain words! Kivan's only failing is his inability to realize that she is a Priestess of Shar, not Lolth (not that that is better here). I think that is a failing of the writers here (Viconia makes no secret of her Priesthood "for Shar!" and "Nightbringer, give me strength" for example).
Now, I have no idea what rites and rituals a Priestess of Shar must hold - but hold she must in order to remain in the favor of Shar. As Shar is a Greater Goddess of Evil, I rather think that the rites and rituals are not going to be nice and pleasant...so what exactly is Viconia doing during those "8 hour rests", hmmm?
"Come here Boo, I have something for you", silky voice with a wicked grin.
Comments
Interesting aside; there was a mod called Virtue Mod for BG2 that gave you a virtue rating that moved the protagonists alignment based on certain decisions that had a moral factor, as opposed to, and sometimes in conjunction with, simple repute. It moved your alignment between between good, neutral and evil, so it made sure that if you played a certain way, your alignment was going to reflect it on that axis, eventually. Bad news for paladins trying to play it greedy-like but aware of all the reputation affecting decisions.
Back to OP and accurate depiction of NPC alignment; I take into account a characters statistics as well when determining motivation. Looking at Kivan; we have a simple mind, maybe he's been places, seen things, but it's simple nonetheless. Then we also see that his eloquence and ability to communicate effectively is somewhat lacking. The way I perceive it is that Viconia is Kivan's mental superior, and is goading him into the modern-day faux pa of a man being abusive to an innocuous female.
I believe she is aware of who the PC is, by that I don't mean Bhaalspawn, but their cloistered sensibilities. Perhaps I'm reading too far into it, but I see 10int, 14wis, 8cha being trumped handily by 16int, 15wis, 14cha. It's a mind-game and it's appropriate, she has a history (by which I mean a future) of mind-games, look at the hot/cold romance.
Also, the Drow matriarchal impulse seems driven by more than a DOWNWITHMEN reflex. I think there's some emotional sado-masochism happening that gives them the jibblies in effecting total war against a person, but I'm too tired to remember where I picked up on that, probably something to do with the Phaere-Solaufein plot, which would make that point about a subtle as a Rashemi battle-cry. Though I've read enough Drizzt, Jarlaxle and (newerchick?) to be suitably comforted by my opinion that female Drow dominance is complete, and perseveres through facades of nicety.
Here's an interesting question, do we know what happens to Kivan after BG? I don't know myself, but I posit he learned to regret his darthiir mouth later-on. That is neutral evil.
The way I would take those conversations, is me standing beside Kivan, eyeful of distrust at Viconia's proffered peace-pipe just the same, but on the heels of his backbarking would be a good slap upside his head. He should smile, thank her and continue watching his back, probably more-so.
Though, if there are lines I missed about mutual enmity between Vicky and Kivan then I've just gone a made a lengthy argument that amounts to arse, but I've only ever seen her being nice (to him).
Edit: So I just crit for a wall of text, but it was building up throughout and I couldn't wear my lurker hat anymore. It's my hope that this was an interesting twist the author's conjured, as I imagine them not to be looking glasses through which they hope to show us a depressing facet of human reality, but spinners of scintillating stories expertly crafted to entertain and delight folk like me and you. The Drow theater of conflict with surfacers had been opened for 10 years+ before Baldur's Gate was released after all, plenty of time to steepen the intrigue.
Viconia does have some negative banter with some of the other NPCs, such as Aerie, but I don't think that in itself makes her evil. There's a big difference between insulting someone and physically attacking them. Sure, Viconia isn't the nicest person in the world, at least not in her interactions with some characters, but she doesn't go out of her way to cause trouble either, nor does she actually hurt anyone (except in response to others attacking her) unless you tell her to. It also makes a lot of sense when you think about it. A person who has been through so many traumatic events like she has and was constantly betrayed by everyone she thought she could trust, would likely be a bit messed up when it came to normal interactions with other people.
Personally, she is a cleric of Shar (an evil Goddess). She makes no secret of that. This means that to remain in Shar's favor (and she does, because she can cast spells over 1st and 2nd level, when high enough level to do so) that she dutifully maintains the correct rites as a Priestess of Shar.
We do see that later in BG2, that it is possible that she falls out of favor with Shar (one possible ending) - but that is far off in a possible future for her.
We actually do not know much about Viconia, really. We only know that which she, herself, reveals to us. And as she is first of all, a Drow female, and second of all, Neutral Evil, to trust what she says without proof is foolhardy, to say the least. First of all, Viconia is a Stranger in a Strange Land, totally alone and without any sort of retreat to safety or security. She cannot go back to the Underdark, where worse than death awaits...she is stranded on the surface.
Second, the Strange Land she has been "exiled" to wants her dead. Only the PC and his/her party doesn't, it seems...(and due to her experiences with the surfacers, I rather suspect that Viconia has a very healthy amount of distrust to sow, not to mention that it is a natural state for her to do so).
Third, Drow expect to be constantly betrayed by everyone and trust no-one, so no, Viconia is in no way a bit "messed up" in that sense when it comes to "normal interactions" with other people. Viconia, as a Drow, cannot have any "normal interactions" with surface people!! They fear Drow, and for very good reason! Likewise, the Drow female mindset is basically alien to the surface world.
Hardly a basis for any type of interaction, let alone "normal".
As for what has happened to her on the surface - well, as a Drow, she really wouldn't expect any other type of treatment (well, probably expected worse, really), and is probably amazed that she has not been treated worse. Drow do NOT treat exiles well, and members of fallen Houses get treated exceptionally bad - especially those who have lost the favor of Lolth!
The surface has nothing on the Drow in the area of depravity, torture, and the inflicting of pain. The Drow have perfected such as elvenly as possible, and have made it into an artform.
As such, I think we have to assume that Kivan knows this. After all, what really happens during all those 8 hour rest sessions? Are we to assume that even though we as the players never cast know alignment/detect evil, Kivan doesn't ask any passing paladins at any point to do so for him? Hell, why wouldn't a level 8 Kivan cast Detect Evil himself?
Given that, he has every reason to distrust her, racism, elven hate and drow history notwithstanding. Even deliberately abusing her could seem justified, seeing as he would have to assume that her behaviour is a plain lie and that she is plotting to kill him in his sleep.
That being said, the game is far from complete with regards to character interactions like these. It would take tons of extra dialogue in order for the characters to actually stay "in character" for all encounters. It's entirely possible that the original writers of the game dialogue simply thought that "hey, elf vs drow, we should probably write something!" with regards to Kivan vs. Viccy but that the work is simply incomplete.
Extra edit: Hell, for all we know her alignment might originally have been an oversight. Maybe whoever assigned her alignment didn't really have anything to do with writing her dialogue, or if her writer/creator is the same person, just didn't really care much about what alignment was, or figured having a non-Drizzt drow as non-evil was just too far-fetched. But if it's not a mistake, she's simply evil, Kivan knows it, I think that's about as much justification he needs in order to hate/distrust her.
IMO, BG1 Viconia is wrongly characterized as an evil-aligned char. Her bio states that she went up her evil drow brethren, and sacrificed EVERYTHING as a result - those are NOT the actions of neutral evil chars, who put power and wealth above everything. She's really a true or chaotic neutral char.
She's also a sympathetic char, victimized solely because of the color of her skin. When I play as a good-aligned char (and especially as a paladin), I feel she is the kind of person I should be looking to shelter and protect. And as you correctly noted, it's Kivan, not Vic, who comes off like the "bad guy" in their encounters. In fact, when each one dies, Vic's solemnly says, "Kivan and I never understood eachother," whereas Kivan declares, "May Viconia's soul ROT IN HELL!!"
BG2 does a better job of portraying Viconia as evil - though even then, the "evil" is mostly just "creepiness" rather than outright maliciousness.
Not only that, but she tells him outright, "I no longer worship Lolth!," but he will completely disregard her words and continue to persecute her for supposedly worshiping Lolth.
Besides, if good chars can overlook the fact that Drizzt is a drow, why not the same for Viconia? NOT true - she gave up all the power she had when she went up against her drow brethren, and now lives helpless, isolated, and persecuted on the surface. Those are the actions of a neutral, not evil, char.
At the end of the 4th crown war the elven nations banded together to banish the Ilythiiri for numerous atrocities (picture nuclear warfare waged with high magic instead of bombs as well as the worst parts of our own world wars). This banishment bound ALL dark elves not just the illythiiri this included the Miyeritar dark elves (who were not evil) the Miyeritar being banished in addition to the Illythiiri was an unintentional side effect of the highmagic that was cast (most high magic has unintentional side effects). The Miyeritar were almost wiped out by sun elves during the second crown war, this has caused a massive population imbalance between the Miyeritar and illythiiri in the underdark.
Miyeritar drow are more likely to seek out "bonds" and are often drawn to one another without realizing it and are often discontent with drow life, Illythiiri drow tend not to be drawn to each other and are less discontent with drow life.
There is no way to distinguish Miyeritar drow from Illythiiri drow physically and most drow do not even realize that they are of 2 different heritages.
The decent of the Dhaerow mirrored the banishment of Araushnee from the elven pantheon.
Recent events (very much post Baulders gate) have seen the remaining Myeritar Dark Elves (as well as any drow who accepted the redemption of Eilistraee) freed from the drow curse and they have resumed their original complexions (Black Hair and Dark Brown skin, dark eye colors; shades of brown/green).
TLDR: Viconia may be of Miyeritar heritage.
You know she is Neutral Evil, right? I mean...this is a fact. Take a look at that character sheet. Also, she is a Priestess of Shar.
What she then tells you, you trust it? Really? I bet you are male...hehe. Drow females are known for wrapping males around their fingers...
Kivan is correct here - you cannot trust the Drow biatch! She is not truly "extending an olive branch here" - she is just trying to lull him into a false sense of security (as she has you). You have to actually put yourself in Kivan's shoes here to understand his reaction. He is face-to-face with the ultimate enemy of his race, a Drow female. She is admittedly a Priestess of Shar, certainly evil, and is present 24/7! She has the favor of the PC!! Kivan is obviously on edge, paranoid, and probably feeling he is in a hopeless position to do anything about it other than kill her as soon as possible.
Of course he rebuffs her rather obvious attempts to lull him! He states so in no uncertain words! Kivan's only failing is his inability to realize that she is a Priestess of Shar, not Lolth (not that that is better here). I think that is a failing of the writers here (Viconia makes no secret of her Priesthood "for Shar!" and "Nightbringer, give me strength" for example).
Now, I have no idea what rites and rituals a Priestess of Shar must hold - but hold she must in order to remain in the favor of Shar. As Shar is a Greater Goddess of Evil, I rather think that the rites and rituals are not going to be nice and pleasant...so what exactly is Viconia doing during those "8 hour rests", hmmm?
"Come here Boo, I have something for you", silky voice with a wicked grin.