And no, a bard is actually just as power as a Kensage, their epic traps can replace several high level spell effects (especially time stop), and they can use scrolls and wands to shore up any areas they're lacking in, you can use dual-wield speed weapons (even as a non-blade) with no real disadvantage to easily pump out 8-9 attacks under IH. Not to mention being able to equip all the same gear that makes kensage good in the first place + the awesome-sauce gauntlets that give the berserker/mage the edge over kensage (a blade has the same potential damage as a berserker, when using the gauntlets, and with Tenser's they have even more, the Kensai, if 13 dual'd, keeps a +1 damage per hit advantage...but wow...so much work for a max of 10 more damage per round over a mere BARD)
Oh I don't mind some micromanagement in my playthrough. Its the micromanagement with the song on top of the spellcasts. But I suppose since BGEE is a low-magic game it won't be as bad.
I dunno most of my micro ability (re: not much) is still derived from Starcraft 2
Actually having an invisible Bard is one less NPC to micro-manage... I usually assign no script to my Jester and simply move him around the enemies during the battle...
And no, a bard is actually just as power as a Kensage, their epic traps can replace several high level spell effects (especially time stop), and they can use scrolls and wands to shore up any areas they're lacking in, you can use dual-wield speed weapons (even as a non-blade) with no real disadvantage
But a non-blade can only put one pip into two-weapon fighting, so gets at best gets -2 on the *main* hand, which sucks, especially as bards would be great with the Zerth Blade in the off-hand
Just to clarify, I was not dismissing bard I was simply trying to understand the point of playing a bard when you can just play a warrior, wizard or thief that specialise in your kind of favoured combat whether its spell casting ect. Bard seems more of a NPC class you stumble across as a supporting role than the actual front line hero as well since of course you become *extreme abbreviated spoiler alert* T.L.O.M.
I could actually see myself playing a bard if they had lockpicking abilities but since they don't I feel your better off being a Thief/Mage like Imoen instead.
But *all* mutli-classeses level up slowly *and* have a lower level cap in BGEE/BG1, bards don't, nor do thief/mage's get bard song (which is great in the case of Skald and Jester, and can even be mixed a bit with spells/attack without dropping bard song, see above) or the high lore of most bards. Also bards can use a wider range of weapons (and their THAC0 progression will be faster) - long bows, heavy crossbows, halberds, two-handed swords etc., chain mail (though this is a bit *so what?* as both bards and thief/mages can wear eleven chain), and are the only class that can use the (admittedly not very many) bard-specific magic items in BG2. They also have a fun stronghold in BG2.
The main things I think they should *fix* with the bard to make it a little more balanced:
1) Allow *all* bards to put at least 2 pips into dual-wield (in fact they should do this for *all* rogues) 2) The "normal" bard song should also provide a Luck bonus 3) Blades should not be able to gain the enhanced bard song, but should be able to get something else instead (perhaps something from the warrior pool?)
Most spells do in terms of power and duration... Even 10th level spells like Energy blade... You won't see more than 20 discs...
For blade, yeah, perhaps instead of bard song one could assign Whirlwind instead... Definitely doable... Like how Swashbucklers get whirlwind instead of assassination...
Most spells do in terms of power and duration... Even 10th level spells like Energy blade... You won't see more than 20 discs...
Oh, okay, mind you a bard will get to level 20 long before a Mage would. Also, wouldn't a level 40 Bard still be able to dispel magic better than a level 20 mage?
For blade, yeah, perhaps instead of bard song one could assign Whirlwind instead... Definitely doable... Like how Swashbucklers get whirlwind instead of assassination...
Yes, I think this is what the rogue rebalancing mod does for the Blade
Most spells do in terms of power and duration... Even 10th level spells like Energy blade... You won't see more than 20 discs...
Oh, okay, mind you a bard will get to level 20 long before a Mage would. Also, wouldn't a level 40 Bard still be able to dispel magic better than a level 20 mage?
I've browsed through spell files and found that only two spells work beyond level 20...
Symbol,Fear/Stun: to level 21.
On TOB, Bhaalspawn powers such as regeneration (29), mass healing (24), dark taint (25), hand of murder (30), scale up to level 30 (and they had better, since description clearly states that). Otherwise 10th level spells like summon planetar/deva, aura of flaming death, mass raise dead, energy blades scale up to level 20...
But yes, I believe Dispel/Remove magic works on caster level so level 40 dispel/remove magic cast by Bard would be much more powerful than by level 31 Wizard/Sorcerer.
Interestingly, dispel magic ability of Inquisitor at level 20 works as if he/she were level 40... but the bad thing is even that stops scaling after level 20 so that level 40 Bard and level 34 Inquisitor have effectively same dispel power... Still Inquisitor has better dispel power than ordinary Paladin since for Paladin level 3 dispel magic caps at level 34...
I'm not a fan of the Zerth blade at all. an extra spell from 1-4 in no way makes up for losing a potential 2 extra attacks under IH.
And yes, despite the penalty, if you dual-wield speed weapons, * TW Bard/Jester/Skald will tear through enemies only slightly worse then a blade doing the same will...most of the time you don't even notice a difference. After a tenser's though you can afford penalty...even before that though, the shear volume of attacks can easily offset the penalty (doesn't change the fact that they are supposed to be able to put ** in it (well...*** in BG).
Dispel I'm not sure of...in truth..I never use it...its completely unnecessary for any battle....It's a large part of why I dislike the Inquisitor...his dispel is pointless and he sacrifices so much for it. I used to....at one time...but it's just not needed...that and no matter how high you are there's at least a 1% chance of failure. Ever since my plain fighter solo, I've never touched dispel again, because while it might speed a battle up by 1-2 rounds...in the long run..you don't need it, period.
I would imagine it caps at 20, just like other spells do...so the 40 Bard would have a 50/50 chance of dispelling 20 mage....though...due to the inquisitor, i'm not sure...dispel though does get to break a few rules, such as working against liches/demi-liches/Rakshasa, even though they're innately immune to spells of 5/8/8 or lower, so who knows..maybe...I'm not sure what to look for in NI to confirm or deny.
The great thing about bards IMO is that they always have something to do. An easy enemy? great I will melee or shoot it. Big group? aoe, CC, group buffs, and then start attacking. Very tough oponent I can't touch? great I will sing and the berzerker in my group with cleave him to half.
Each kit have it own contribution. Jester will give you a great opener in a fight. Invising and confusing the enemy allowing you to take down the toughest one. Then when everything is under control he will switch to offensive casting or attack with his weapons. Skald is the best bard when all of his other options are not affective (Casting and attacking), Blade is great to take some of the enemy focus from the tank or to deliver a short term high damage (both melee and spellcasting).
The only problem I think is the normal bard and only because his song is not that great for those times when all else fails.
The great thing about bards IMO is that they always have something to do. An easy enemy? great I will melee or shoot it. Big group? aoe, CC, group buffs, and then start attacking. Very tough oponent I can't touch? great I will sing and the berzerker in my group with cleave him to half.
Each kit have it own contribution. Jester will give you a great opener in a fight. Invising and confusing the enemy allowing you to take down the toughest one. Then when everything is under control he will switch to offensive casting or attack with his weapons. Skald is the best bard when all of his other options are not affective (Casting and attacking), Blade is great to take some of the enemy focus from the tank or to deliver a short term high damage (both melee and spellcasting).
The only problem I think is the normal bard and only because his song is not that great for those times when all else fails.
I agree, though if they gave the default bard song the luck bonus it's meant to receive and if it scaled a little, this would make it much more worthwhile
Dispel I'm not sure of...in truth..I never use it...its completely unnecessary for any battle....It's a large part of why I dislike the Inquisitor...his dispel is pointless and he sacrifices so much for it. I used to....at one time...but it's just not needed...that and no matter how high you are there's at least a 1% chance of failure. Ever since my plain fighter solo, I've never touched dispel again, because while it might speed a battle up by 1-2 rounds...in the long run..you don't need it, period.
I would imagine it caps at 20, just like other spells do...so the 40 Bard would have a 50/50 chance of dispelling 20 mage....though...due to the inquisitor, i'm not sure...dispel though does get to break a few rules, such as working against liches/demi-liches/Rakshasa, even though they're innately immune to spells of 5/8/8 or lower, so who knows..maybe...I'm not sure what to look for in NI to confirm or deny.
I've looked at dispel SPL files themselves.... SPCL231 (Inquisitor's Dispel Magic) - uses specific level, max level 40 at Inquisitor level 20 SPWI326/SPPR303 (Mage/Cleric's Dispel Magic) - uses caster level, thus max level 40 at caster level 40...
Please remember for some spells spell levels are capped simply because scripts within SPL files are coded to that level... There are mods (like Spell50 mod from weidu.org, http://www.weidu.org/spell50.html) that expand some of the spells to level 50... like Horrid Wilting 40d8 or Fireball 40d6 (ouch!)... How about lower resistance spell that instantly lowers the magic resistance by 50%... How about Armor of Faith lasting for 4 turns that provide 45% physical resistance (which completely overshadows Hardness HLA), or Barksin that provides -4 base AC for 4 turns... (Now I can finaly find some use for shapeshifters!) Draw upon Holy Might increasing STR/DEX/CONS by 13 (holy s#it)... Or Righteous Magic increasing STR by 13, +40 HP, melee doing max damage that last for 4 turns... Improved Haste lasting for 4 turns (who needs Whirlwind? Ha!)...
Actually, that might be fun.... The problem is that enemy mages will also get the bonuses...
The great thing about bards IMO is that they always have something to do. An easy enemy? great I will melee or shoot it. Big group? aoe, CC, group buffs, and then start attacking. Very tough oponent I can't touch? great I will sing and the berzerker in my group with cleave him to half.
Each kit have it own contribution. Jester will give you a great opener in a fight. Invising and confusing the enemy allowing you to take down the toughest one. Then when everything is under control he will switch to offensive casting or attack with his weapons. Skald is the best bard when all of his other options are not affective (Casting and attacking), Blade is great to take some of the enemy focus from the tank or to deliver a short term high damage (both melee and spellcasting).
The only problem I think is the normal bard and only because his song is not that great for those times when all else fails.
This is a fantastic explanation of the power of bards. There's always something for them to contribute to a fight.
Well..technically the bard song actually does work correctly. Sort of...You actually are supposed to have a choice of 3 different thing it can do. +1 hit, +1 damage, or +2 morale. The hit or damage are static, but the morale song adds +2 morale every round, which does help off-set morale breaks (and shortens Fear durations slightly) if you're taking a beating . Though currently it's also missing the affects a 10ft radius/level, requires 3 rounds of singing to take effect and lasts for 1 round/level after the bard stops singing.
(currently the morale song is the default effect, then at lvl 15 it adds a +1 luck bonus on top of that, and at lvl 21 it becomes +2 luck and immunity to fear and morale break, I double checked the 21 effect since my other post about it sounded off)
And they're also missing counter-song, which is another version of the Bard Song they sing and anyone under a charm/enchantment spell in the radius makes a save vs spell each round and if it succeeds, it breaks the enchantment on them. (Only Skald and True Bards have Counter Song, though the Jester should have a similar ability, Tell Joke, that can force a save to remove fear or confusion from allies.)
F/M or kensage do essentially outperform the bard in most ways and will, overall, be a more powerful character.
On the other hand, a bard- being an arcane spellcaster, even if restricted- will tank better than any pure fighter or fighter/divine multi or dual class thanks to the many wonderful arcane defensive spells available to them.
So yes, bards are suboptimal compared to some of the most powerful class combination in the game who will outperform them in combat and spellcasting.
Despite this, a bard is more powerful than many other classes in the game by BG2, thanks to having arcane spells, so its not like you can't contribute- Haer'dalis is the best NPC tank in BG2 when used well for example (except maybe the pure mages). In BG1 its not quite as good as that, but its still a viable character if used right.
So sure, its not the powergaming choice for Charname, but then nor is a pure warrior class compared to F/M- that does't mean they can't be fun to play for many. So long as you are aware of the relative weaknesses and think they will add to, rather than reduce, your tactical challenges and make your playthrough more fun, go for it. A restricted character can be fun to play because of that, there isn't a need to justify choices based on powergaming terms.
Of course, I'm addicted to powergaming so my Charname is a F/M most times!
I agree with you that a Kensage, Ragemage or F/M will out perform the bard in the end (hehepunpun), but the bigger part is that the bard levels faster than the fighter/mage multi and doesn't have the associated downtime with the Kensage or Ragemage.
One of the biggest things I've had to do since I've come back to the gate, especially after I've played so much wow of late is remember that the end game is not where the game begins in BG. Its the journey and there bards are exceptionally powerful.
Thats simply not the case though. At 30k xp: Bard has one less thac0 and same spells as F/M At 60k xp: Bard has two less thac0 and one less spell than F/M At 90k xp: Bard has 3 less thac0 and two less spells than F/M At 120k xp: Bard has 3 less thac0 and two less spells, one less spell level than F/M At 150k xp: Bard has 4 less thac0, half and attack a round less, and two less spells, one less spell level than F/M
F/M does better with proficency points at all stages, can use better weapons and armour, has better HP assuming high constitution at all stages (I think), and substantially better saving throws. Bard gets song, lore and pickpocketing, and higher spell casting level, which loses for sure even without the above list.
Blade probably does come out winner at the really lower levels as his spins are not balanced for them and thus do pretty decently (in comparison to putting low F/M in full plate with large shield), but this is still a small gap thats reduced especially as better equipment is available and the other advantages of the F/M increase their lead.
Faster progression for single classes is almost a myth at BG1 levels- Multiclasses perform best at rather low and fairly high levels, and most BG1 level multiclasses will be stronger than any single class. Bards are not an exception here- anybody just playing Tutu or BG:EE will almost certainly do better with a multi or dual, in pure powergaming terms.
For SOA levels, the bard is competitive or slightly ahead in spell casting- and does get a nice caster level boost to the 20 cap- while being a significantly worse fighter. So, its in SOA (not BG1) where the bard pays off best- an inferior damage fighter but comparable or better reserve caster/ mage tank to the F/M.
By TOB, the F/M draws away and will become superior across the board to the F/M with fighter HLAs and higher level spells only being offset by traps.
OK first off...a Bard get's more HP overall, they pass the F/M at 13 fully and never look back (Wizards and Rogues roll HD up to 10, vs 9 for a F or C, which in the case of a multi is penalized to the point they need high con just to compete). 2 a blade's Offensive spin is superior to specialization, though the damage is the same, and both can eventually hit 10 attacks with proper gear under IH (the F/M has an advantage against enemies that require +4 or higher to hit though only a slight one). From 12 until 20 a Bard has more thac0 then a F/M does, and even after, the difference is moot, since Tenser's easily pushes them both into the no-miss territory (the F/M has to use tenser's as well or the Bard is superior in damage, and a blade blows them away). Though in most cases it's unnecessary save against bosses or similar level enemies since most enemies only have 1 to -3 AC's at the upper end of the spectrum, which can easily be off-set by str mods, and gear.
2ndly, while having Fighter HLA is powerful, they're also unnecessary overkill, which the bard can easily compete with. They don't overkill by as much, yes, but overkill is overkill none the less.
and a proficiency advantage is laughable. Most people only use 1 or 2 weapon types anyway and by 12 a blade has all the points they ever need, a plain Bard technically hits that point at 4 (since they're getting screwed out the dual-wielding specialization they're supposed to be able to get)
I do agree that by the raw highest numbers a F/M is better....but in terms of practical use, the Bard blows them away. They reach the overkill point long before a F/M does, and while they don't increase much at all after that point, they ultimately serve just as practically powerful as a F/M is since again, overkill is still overkill.
I hate calculating multiclass HP, but my maths (assuming max useful con for both) has the F/M with a 14 HP lead at level 10, which is marginal but still a win. I think you are really underrating the difference between schimitar or short swords vs celestial fury or the flail of ages here. Helmets and shields are nice too, especially in BG1.
Offensive spin is nice, but requires the Blade to spend 1/4 rounds ability action renewing it; a F/M who achieves combat abilities passively can use a potion/wand/cast a spell in this time, as well as of course having combat skills available all the time, not just for a few times a day- though maximised attacks does close the gap a little!
A bard does not have better thac0 from 12 to 20. Just for example, base thac0 level 15 bard: 13 (11 with spin active). Base thac0 of comparable F/M: 8. Tensers isn't optimal for either anyway- spellcasting is great, don't disable it!
Calling an advantage "overkill" is basically just admitting its an advantage? If I'm playing SCSII-Ascension, for example, its really not overkill anyway! Fighter and Mage HLAs bring some real power to the table.
Being able to switch weapons casually is an advantage- I didn't say it was a big one, I compared it to small abilites like the bards song, but there are lots of weapons which offer different combat bonuses that makes it a nice option (i.e azuredge or mace of disruption for liches).
From 12-20 Bards are somewhat worse fighters and, at some (not all) points up a couple of extra spell castings (not higher spell levels) and a higher casting level.
After that, the F/M really overtakes them in power. Thats just the raw mechanics. However, Bards are still really powerful, like all Arcane casters, and a well played bard will be a powerhouse spellsword- not quite up with an F/M, but if you find them more fun then you will do well with them.
I'm not saying Blades aren't powerful- they are more powerful than most classes because arcane spells are where the power is- or that you can't win happily with them; its just in raw powergaming terms, F/M is more optimal.
Maybe my comment from the Blade or Skald topic is more on-topic here, just as an extra advantage of the much faster levelling of Bards than multi-class Fighter/Mages: if you use BG2Tweaks and make use of the 'Add Save Penalties for Spells Cast by High-Level Casters', save penalties for your enemies are much worse (that is, better for you and your succes in defeating them) with a Bard than with a Fighter/Mage.
A Bard wielding CF is just as deadly as a F/M wielding it (save less natural attacks), same for FoA, 1 hit and they're done. You just trade a brokenly powerful effect rather then extra attacks. (And there's nothing really wrong with using CF or FoA and SN/Belm off-hand for a respectable 5 attacks...that's actually my usual MO for dealing with the +4 and higher stuff, since the slow effect on FoA rapes the enemies attack speed and makes them even easier to hit and more likely to miss, vs stun and auto-hit but can't work on +4 and higher enemies).
And you can always toss on Jan's adventure wear, if you don't want to use the Robe of Cheese (it's admittedly a lot less valuable since most of your spells will be buffs rather then direct attack spells, and already have low cast times when paired with AoP) for a basically permanent almost-hardiness for those battles when AC no longer matters (the last 2 fights especially).
I'm just saying you're GROSSLY exaggerating the actual power difference...it does exist, but it's no where near as pronounced as you make it out to be. My Plain Bard solo went just as smoothly as my F/M solo did, save I had a lot of awesome gear sooner since I could just steal whatever I wanted and save money for the things I couldn't (I don't abuse fences, or that would've been an even more massive bonus), also the first possible suit of elven chain you run into is Bard only (same place as boots of speed and Kuudane). Which is actually slightly better then bracers of AC 3, and free, and not really replaced until you get UAI and can wear the robe of cheese. And the two speed weapons can be gotten immediately, off-setting the lack of natural attacks for trash enemies. Even with the penalty non-blades get (that they shouldn't have), other bards can put out respectable damage with no identifying decrease in power.
I'm not saying theres this huge gulf- I said bards are more powerful than most classes just from having arcane spells! I am confident that bards can be powerful characters.
All I said is that in power gaming terms, F/Ms are slightly better at SOA levels and really just are considerably better at TOB levels (7,8,9 level spells + fighter HLAs is a big difference, and it is noticable with Ascenscion). Arguing F/Ms aren't considerably better is arguing 7/8/9 arcane spells don't provide massive power!
I'm not slating the bard, its more powerful than non-arcane "power" builds like the Ranger/Cleric... its just weaker than a F/M.
I don't know....power is pretty relative. Warrior/cleric on any type, or even a paladin due to the screwed up caster progression can both be ridiculously powerful, even more so then a F/M. Not flashy, but you can just bludgeon everything to death with 25 str, with 10 attacks round, with 85% DR (or more), with a buff that blocks damn near everything and another buff that blocks the few things the other doesn't and cast regenerate with enough healing per round you can't be damaged at all after your resistance is accounted for, and saves that can't fail except on a one, if they're even allowed due to the above buffs blocking them that completely ignores MR resistance and only suffers minor inconvenience by PfMW, since the instant it drops, the target dies horribly, and is completely unable to harm the ?/C for the duration.
While yes, the F/M is nice for blowing away trash enemies quickly, they're far from the most powerful in one on one. Bards are the same deal really. They do almost everything a F/M can, though with slightly less umph, but get other benefits that can easily compensate for other abilities, and actually have superior power vs single targets.
UAI allows them to use all the gear a F/M could, + a bunch they can't. Time stop traps replace time stop out of hand (they don't last as long, but 1.5 rounds of auto-hits is all you need in most cases to end a battle). Spike Traps or Fireball traps can replace a number of high level spells, and often do so BETTER then the spells themselves could. And that's not using cheese..if you use trap cheese a poor F/M can't even compete. They can song-twist epic Bard song to give themselves some pretty massive boosts on top of everything else, and due to being heavily oriented towards melee power, Tenser's is no problem at all. You can still cast from wands or scrolls while under tenser and the massive thac0/hp/damage bonus more then makes up for being stuck with what buffs to cast just prior to its use. And while more limited in quantity, the fact a bard could just cast the 7+ spells from scrolls does off-set that quite a bit...they can't really abuse wish, but on the other hand, don't need to, since they're more melee biased.
Sure, in vanilla you can crush the game with a lot of classes, but Real Ultimate Power comes high level arcane spells (or trap cheese in many places, yes... but I don't like that myself . Same reason why Sorc or other arcane caster would be most powerful overall is why F/M is better, ultimately he eventually gets to cast IA and go wild too. But yeah- in a party context, F/M is really nice for blowing away the scrubs consistently.
@Oxford_Guy you asked about bard only items in BG2 earlier; Melodic Chain is also bard only, its the equiv of a +3 elven chain. It drops off the first elf you see after following Haer'Dalis and the others to the planar prison.
Comments
And no, a bard is actually just as power as a Kensage, their epic traps can replace several high level spell effects (especially time stop), and they can use scrolls and wands to shore up any areas they're lacking in, you can use dual-wield speed weapons (even as a non-blade) with no real disadvantage to easily pump out 8-9 attacks under IH. Not to mention being able to equip all the same gear that makes kensage good in the first place + the awesome-sauce gauntlets that give the berserker/mage the edge over kensage (a blade has the same potential damage as a berserker, when using the gauntlets, and with Tenser's they have even more, the Kensai, if 13 dual'd, keeps a +1 damage per hit advantage...but wow...so much work for a max of 10 more damage per round over a mere BARD)
I dunno most of my micro ability (re: not much) is still derived from Starcraft 2
1) Allow *all* bards to put at least 2 pips into dual-wield (in fact they should do this for *all* rogues)
2) The "normal" bard song should also provide a Luck bonus
3) Blades should not be able to gain the enhanced bard song, but should be able to get something else instead (perhaps something from the warrior pool?)
For blade, yeah, perhaps instead of bard song one could assign Whirlwind instead... Definitely doable... Like how Swashbucklers get whirlwind instead of assassination...
Symbol,Fear/Stun: to level 21.
On TOB, Bhaalspawn powers such as regeneration (29), mass healing (24), dark taint (25), hand of murder (30), scale up to level 30 (and they had better, since description clearly states that).
Otherwise 10th level spells like summon planetar/deva, aura of flaming death, mass raise dead, energy blades scale up to level 20...
But yes, I believe Dispel/Remove magic works on caster level so level 40 dispel/remove magic cast by Bard would be much more powerful than by level 31 Wizard/Sorcerer.
Interestingly, dispel magic ability of Inquisitor at level 20 works as if he/she were level 40... but the bad thing is even that stops scaling after level 20 so that level 40 Bard and level 34 Inquisitor have effectively same dispel power... Still Inquisitor has better dispel power than ordinary Paladin since for Paladin level 3 dispel magic caps at level 34...
And yes, despite the penalty, if you dual-wield speed weapons, * TW Bard/Jester/Skald will tear through enemies only slightly worse then a blade doing the same will...most of the time you don't even notice a difference. After a tenser's though you can afford penalty...even before that though, the shear volume of attacks can easily offset the penalty (doesn't change the fact that they are supposed to be able to put ** in it (well...*** in BG).
Dispel I'm not sure of...in truth..I never use it...its completely unnecessary for any battle....It's a large part of why I dislike the Inquisitor...his dispel is pointless and he sacrifices so much for it. I used to....at one time...but it's just not needed...that and no matter how high you are there's at least a 1% chance of failure. Ever since my plain fighter solo, I've never touched dispel again, because while it might speed a battle up by 1-2 rounds...in the long run..you don't need it, period.
I would imagine it caps at 20, just like other spells do...so the 40 Bard would have a 50/50 chance of dispelling 20 mage....though...due to the inquisitor, i'm not sure...dispel though does get to break a few rules, such as working against liches/demi-liches/Rakshasa, even though they're innately immune to spells of 5/8/8 or lower, so who knows..maybe...I'm not sure what to look for in NI to confirm or deny.
Each kit have it own contribution. Jester will give you a great opener in a fight. Invising and confusing the enemy allowing you to take down the toughest one. Then when everything is under control he will switch to offensive casting or attack with his weapons. Skald is the best bard when all of his other options are not affective (Casting and attacking), Blade is great to take some of the enemy focus from the tank or to deliver a short term high damage (both melee and spellcasting).
The only problem I think is the normal bard and only because his song is not that great for those times when all else fails.
SPCL231 (Inquisitor's Dispel Magic) - uses specific level, max level 40 at Inquisitor level 20
SPWI326/SPPR303 (Mage/Cleric's Dispel Magic) - uses caster level, thus max level 40 at caster level 40...
Please remember for some spells spell levels are capped simply because scripts within SPL files are coded to that level... There are mods (like Spell50 mod from weidu.org, http://www.weidu.org/spell50.html) that expand some of the spells to level 50... like Horrid Wilting 40d8 or Fireball 40d6 (ouch!)... How about lower resistance spell that instantly lowers the magic resistance by 50%... How about Armor of Faith lasting for 4 turns that provide 45% physical resistance (which completely overshadows Hardness HLA), or Barksin that provides -4 base AC for 4 turns... (Now I can finaly find some use for shapeshifters!) Draw upon Holy Might increasing STR/DEX/CONS by 13 (holy s#it)... Or Righteous Magic increasing STR by 13, +40 HP, melee doing max damage that last for 4 turns... Improved Haste lasting for 4 turns (who needs Whirlwind? Ha!)...
Actually, that might be fun.... The problem is that enemy mages will also get the bonuses...
(currently the morale song is the default effect, then at lvl 15 it adds a +1 luck bonus on top of that, and at lvl 21 it becomes +2 luck and immunity to fear and morale break, I double checked the 21 effect since my other post about it sounded off)
And they're also missing counter-song, which is another version of the Bard Song they sing and anyone under a charm/enchantment spell in the radius makes a save vs spell each round and if it succeeds, it breaks the enchantment on them. (Only Skald and True Bards have Counter Song, though the Jester should have a similar ability, Tell Joke, that can force a save to remove fear or confusion from allies.)
On the other hand, a bard- being an arcane spellcaster, even if restricted- will tank better than any pure fighter or fighter/divine multi or dual class thanks to the many wonderful arcane defensive spells available to them.
So yes, bards are suboptimal compared to some of the most powerful class combination in the game who will outperform them in combat and spellcasting.
Despite this, a bard is more powerful than many other classes in the game by BG2, thanks to having arcane spells, so its not like you can't contribute- Haer'dalis is the best NPC tank in BG2 when used well for example (except maybe the pure mages). In BG1 its not quite as good as that, but its still a viable character if used right.
So sure, its not the powergaming choice for Charname, but then nor is a pure warrior class compared to F/M- that does't mean they can't be fun to play for many. So long as you are aware of the relative weaknesses and think they will add to, rather than reduce, your tactical challenges and make your playthrough more fun, go for it. A restricted character can be fun to play because of that, there isn't a need to justify choices based on powergaming terms.
Of course, I'm addicted to powergaming so my Charname is a F/M most times!
I agree with you that a Kensage, Ragemage or F/M will out perform the bard in the end (hehepunpun), but the bigger part is that the bard levels faster than the fighter/mage multi and doesn't have the associated downtime with the Kensage or Ragemage.
One of the biggest things I've had to do since I've come back to the gate, especially after I've played so much wow of late is remember that the end game is not where the game begins in BG. Its the journey and there bards are exceptionally powerful.
At 30k xp: Bard has one less thac0 and same spells as F/M
At 60k xp: Bard has two less thac0 and one less spell than F/M
At 90k xp: Bard has 3 less thac0 and two less spells than F/M
At 120k xp: Bard has 3 less thac0 and two less spells, one less spell level than F/M
At 150k xp: Bard has 4 less thac0, half and attack a round less, and two less spells, one less spell level than F/M
F/M does better with proficency points at all stages, can use better weapons and armour, has better HP assuming high constitution at all stages (I think), and substantially better saving throws. Bard gets song, lore and pickpocketing, and higher spell casting level, which loses for sure even without the above list.
Blade probably does come out winner at the really lower levels as his spins are not balanced for them and thus do pretty decently (in comparison to putting low F/M in full plate with large shield), but this is still a small gap thats reduced especially as better equipment is available and the other advantages of the F/M increase their lead.
Faster progression for single classes is almost a myth at BG1 levels- Multiclasses perform best at rather low and fairly high levels, and most BG1 level multiclasses will be stronger than any single class. Bards are not an exception here- anybody just playing Tutu or BG:EE will almost certainly do better with a multi or dual, in pure powergaming terms.
For SOA levels, the bard is competitive or slightly ahead in spell casting- and does get a nice caster level boost to the 20 cap- while being a significantly worse fighter. So, its in SOA (not BG1) where the bard pays off best- an inferior damage fighter but comparable or better reserve caster/ mage tank to the F/M.
By TOB, the F/M draws away and will become superior across the board to the F/M with fighter HLAs and higher level spells only being offset by traps.
2ndly, while having Fighter HLA is powerful, they're also unnecessary overkill, which the bard can easily compete with. They don't overkill by as much, yes, but overkill is overkill none the less.
and a proficiency advantage is laughable. Most people only use 1 or 2 weapon types anyway and by 12 a blade has all the points they ever need, a plain Bard technically hits that point at 4 (since they're getting screwed out the dual-wielding specialization they're supposed to be able to get)
I do agree that by the raw highest numbers a F/M is better....but in terms of practical use, the Bard blows them away. They reach the overkill point long before a F/M does, and while they don't increase much at all after that point, they ultimately serve just as practically powerful as a F/M is since again, overkill is still overkill.
Offensive spin is nice, but requires the Blade to spend 1/4 rounds ability action renewing it; a F/M who achieves combat abilities passively can use a potion/wand/cast a spell in this time, as well as of course having combat skills available all the time, not just for a few times a day- though maximised attacks does close the gap a little!
A bard does not have better thac0 from 12 to 20. Just for example, base thac0 level 15 bard: 13 (11 with spin active). Base thac0 of comparable F/M: 8. Tensers isn't optimal for either anyway- spellcasting is great, don't disable it!
Calling an advantage "overkill" is basically just admitting its an advantage? If I'm playing SCSII-Ascension, for example, its really not overkill anyway! Fighter and Mage HLAs bring some real power to the table.
Being able to switch weapons casually is an advantage- I didn't say it was a big one, I compared it to small abilites like the bards song, but there are lots of weapons which offer different combat bonuses that makes it a nice option (i.e azuredge or mace of disruption for liches).
From 12-20 Bards are somewhat worse fighters and, at some (not all) points up a couple of extra spell castings (not higher spell levels) and a higher casting level.
After that, the F/M really overtakes them in power. Thats just the raw mechanics. However, Bards are still really powerful, like all Arcane casters, and a well played bard will be a powerhouse spellsword- not quite up with an F/M, but if you find them more fun then you will do well with them.
I'm not saying Blades aren't powerful- they are more powerful than most classes because arcane spells are where the power is- or that you can't win happily with them; its just in raw powergaming terms, F/M is more optimal.
And you can always toss on Jan's adventure wear, if you don't want to use the Robe of Cheese (it's admittedly a lot less valuable since most of your spells will be buffs rather then direct attack spells, and already have low cast times when paired with AoP) for a basically permanent almost-hardiness for those battles when AC no longer matters (the last 2 fights especially).
I'm just saying you're GROSSLY exaggerating the actual power difference...it does exist, but it's no where near as pronounced as you make it out to be. My Plain Bard solo went just as smoothly as my F/M solo did, save I had a lot of awesome gear sooner since I could just steal whatever I wanted and save money for the things I couldn't (I don't abuse fences, or that would've been an even more massive bonus), also the first possible suit of elven chain you run into is Bard only (same place as boots of speed and Kuudane). Which is actually slightly better then bracers of AC 3, and free, and not really replaced until you get UAI and can wear the robe of cheese. And the two speed weapons can be gotten immediately, off-setting the lack of natural attacks for trash enemies. Even with the penalty non-blades get (that they shouldn't have), other bards can put out respectable damage with no identifying decrease in power.
All I said is that in power gaming terms, F/Ms are slightly better at SOA levels and really just are considerably better at TOB levels (7,8,9 level spells + fighter HLAs is a big difference, and it is noticable with Ascenscion). Arguing F/Ms aren't considerably better is arguing 7/8/9 arcane spells don't provide massive power!
I'm not slating the bard, its more powerful than non-arcane "power" builds like the Ranger/Cleric... its just weaker than a F/M.
While yes, the F/M is nice for blowing away trash enemies quickly, they're far from the most powerful in one on one. Bards are the same deal really. They do almost everything a F/M can, though with slightly less umph, but get other benefits that can easily compensate for other abilities, and actually have superior power vs single targets.
UAI allows them to use all the gear a F/M could, + a bunch they can't. Time stop traps replace time stop out of hand (they don't last as long, but 1.5 rounds of auto-hits is all you need in most cases to end a battle). Spike Traps or Fireball traps can replace a number of high level spells, and often do so BETTER then the spells themselves could. And that's not using cheese..if you use trap cheese a poor F/M can't even compete. They can song-twist epic Bard song to give themselves some pretty massive boosts on top of everything else, and due to being heavily oriented towards melee power, Tenser's is no problem at all. You can still cast from wands or scrolls while under tenser and the massive thac0/hp/damage bonus more then makes up for being stuck with what buffs to cast just prior to its use. And while more limited in quantity, the fact a bard could just cast the 7+ spells from scrolls does off-set that quite a bit...they can't really abuse wish, but on the other hand, don't need to, since they're more melee biased.
you asked about bard only items in BG2 earlier; Melodic Chain is also bard only, its the equiv of a +3 elven chain. It drops off the first elf you see after following Haer'Dalis and the others to the planar prison.