Sarevok can dual to mage or thief, remember. Sure, it's late in the game to do so, but if we're assuming a duel at very high levels, then I say that gives Sarevok the right to dual-class.
That means that Sarevok either gets the use of traps/stealth or arcane magic. I don't feel like breaking down the various skills and counters each version would employ against Dorn, since that's going to be mostly opinion at that point. However, since 19 strength is only barely better than 18/00 and melee capabilities tend to level off at higher levels, I see this matchup as Sarevok bringing a slight physical edge coupled with the full capabilities of either the thief or the mage. And I definitely favor Sarevok with that matchup.
Dorn might be able to use Carsomyr, though I doubt it. Know who definitely can? Fighter->Thief Sarevok with UAI =D
Know what? I'm bored at work. Let's break this down a bit.
End of BG1: Level 8 Dorn vs. Level 15 boss-mode Sarevok Advantage: Sarevok I haven't beaten BGEE yet, but unless I'm missing something, this won't even be close. There isn't enough good gear in BG1 to get Dorn at Sarevok's level. Sarevok has better stats, a much better AC, a much better THAC0, high magic resist, and far, far sexier armor. Should be no contest. Dorn would need several consecutive crits to win.
Mid BG2: Dorn level 13 vs. Level 15 boss-mode Sarevok Advantage: Slightly in Sarevok's favor Could be wrong on this one. I gave Dorn equal xp to Sarevok at level 15, which puts him at level 13. Sarevok still has his god-mode magic resist, making Dorn's lifedrain and offensive spells not effective. Sarevok still has the stat advantage, but Dorn should have comparable gear at this point in BG2. Still, Sarevok's higher health and natural AC should offset his slightly inferior strength, and with magic resistance making this mostly a battle of dice, Sarevok should have the edge.
Beginning ToB: If memory serves, Dorn level 17 vs. Sarevok level 19 Advantage: Dorn Sarevok is still a badass in melee, but has lost his magic resistance. Dorn now has a 34-point life drain, which nicely evens out the HP difference and then some, as well as a good handful of priestly abilities. Even conceding Sarevok equal gear levels (while in practice, Sarevok probably has generic magic stuff while Dorn is wearing dragonscale), Dorn's wider range of abilities should give him the edge.
End ToB: Dorn level 34 vs. Sarevok level 17ish->Mage/Thief Advantage: Sarevok Dorn's abilities have maxed out and should be quite powerful, but Sarevok remains a comparable melee combatant with the addition of either mastery of magic or thievery. Dorn's fledgling clerical abilities won't match up to either level 9/10 spells or UAI and backstabbing.
End ToB: Dorn level 34 vs. Sarevok level 40 Advantage: Dorn Generic fighter won't hold a candle to Dorn's divine magic and special blackguard ability set. No contest.
1: Dorn wields Carsomyr. He's a Paladin, after all.
2: Also, it's been awhile, but I believe that Baldur's Gate kept the same rules as regular ADnD, namely that Constitution bonuses only apply for the first 9 levels. The difference at level 40 and level 10 is exactly the same: 36 HP. Since Dorn, by level 20, can absorb 40 HP and heal himself with it (even if it's against an unattended item), I'm pretty sure that's a point in Dorn's favour.
3: Dorn has spells. Included in these spells is Death Ward, which protects against Death Effects, including Deathbringer Assault. Problem?
4: Dorn hits harder, can poison his weapon for 2 damage/second, including ranged, and has his Aura of Despair, giving him an effective +4 to hit and a -4 AC. I haven't even gone into the wide array of buffs a Paladin can pick up, such as Prayer, just plain wear the guy down with Summons, or cast Power Word Lay There And Take It and then stick his poisoned +5 Holy Avenger where the sun don't shine.
Enjoy your extra 1.5 Attacks per round and useless death ability Sarevok!
I am only concerned about 3 issues here. 1.) Although it has already been mentioned, the ability of Dorn to be able to use Carsomyr is unknown yet, so I can't put it one way or the other (my money is that he can't wield it, but it won't matter until we know if he can or not). 2.) Death Ward could be interrupted, so it isn't necessarily a hard stop to Deathbringer. Unless the fight is predetermined and they have preparation time (in which case, there are possibly other issues for both sides that I haven't thought of.) I assumed it was a more spontaneous fight, but at full rest status. 3.) You say Dorn hits harder: is this because of the poison/Aura of Despair/spells? Because without those, he only has 1 more damage, and then there is the increased damage from Sarevok's Grand Mastery.
Just curious, want to consider this epic duel from all points of view.
EDIT: I suppose on the topic of Carsomyr, what gear they have would have to be discussed at length as well.
Please consider that the other NPCs from original BG1 aren't that fleshed out either. The great time for the joinable NPCs was in BG2 - so hopefully we will see lots of more content on background, behaviour, development etc.
At this point we do not know how the complete saga will end for Dorn - whereas we know how it will end for Sarevok. So we should wait until we make such a comparison, if you weren't just speaking of BG1:EE, that is.
I agree that the BG1 NPCs are not as fleshed out as the BG2 ones, but the new ones in BG:EE are very fleshed out I feel. I really feel like with the banters I get to know Rasaad and Neera, but not Dorn as much; so I can see where Quartz is coming from. He seems much much different than Rasaad and Neera in terms of character development, but perhaps that is just because he is an evil jerkwad.
This talk of Dorn being able to wield Carsomyr is meaningless. Do you honestly think Overhaul would let Dorn use a HOLY sword considering his PROFANE powers? That just doesnt make any sense. I fully expect a response like "Oh he might be able to corrupt it."
To which I say, no, he will not. One, Carsomyr is a holy relic and is ludicrously powerful, more so than a level 14 Blackguard, who is still comparitively weaker than even BG1 Sarevok.
Two, there has never been an exception like this across the games. Its not like Korgan could wield Azuredge because he likes his women and booze and is pretty evil in general, so he could try to overpower the axe's enchantment because of his foulness.
Three, even if Dorn could wield Carsomyr, the sword would outright refuse to lend its true power to him. A Holy Avenger sword in the hands of anyone that isn't a Paladin acts as a normal +2 sword and nothing more. This is common DnD knowledge.
I'm sure they will introduce an evil version of Carsomyr sometime, but this talk of a Blackguard wielding a Paladin weapon is nonsense.
@Flashburn I agree that Dorn alone could not corrupt the sword, but perhaps Dorn's evil patron could corrupt the sword in order to further strengthen his unholy champion? And because of the popularity of Blackguards, they might make a Blackguard equivalent (then again, the smiting good thing really wouldn't Sarevok that much now would it).
Yeah, while Flashburn has some compelling background knowledge about how holy avengers work, Toanwrath makes a good point about Dorn's patron. I don't know how powerful a demon lord is compared to a holy avenger in D&D rules, but I'm also not sure how much the developers would care.
@Madhax Certainly an interesting thing to consider developing: more on Dorn's patron! And perhaps more significance to the background of this Holy Avenger Carsomyr (not "the" as there are plenty of Holy Avengers in Forgotten Realms), besides just a Red Dragon hiding one. Also, isn't it rather ironic that the Holy Avenger is one of the best weapons to fight a Red Dragon with, and you have to defeat the Red Dragon to get the weapon...to defeat it?
Oh, they'd better get more in-depth on Dorn's patron. Hell, I want an option to fight him, whether it's a way for Dorn to absorb his power at a high level, or some questline with a good PC to redeem Dorn and turn him into a paladin....
True, it wouldn't be an angle I'd personally pursue with Dorn, but it would be a cool excuse to tumble with his patron in BG2 or ToB. I'm sure Dorn has found his way into a few good-leaning parties, he's not so much a chaotic psychopath as a revenge-driven warrior.
We'll have to see how his story progresses in BG2. A paladin, blackguard or traditional, starts off as little more than a fighter but I tend to view their eventual learning of priest spells as becoming more spiritually attuned to their god. A more spiritual and wise Dorn could be a totally different character, possibly prone to regret of past actions. We'll see.
On topic: Sarevok and Dorn would be fairly evenly matched at the beginning of ToB. Sarevok is tougher and has Deathbringer Assault. Dorn will have a small assortment of priest spells in addition to his Blackguard powers and considerable martial might.
But by the end of the Bhaalspawn saga, I think Dorn will be the strongest. He will be able to boost his offense and defense through his spells, and probably be able to withstand one or two Deathbringer Assaults via Armor of Faith. Aura of Despair will weaken Sarevok's regular hits as well. Absorb Health will also heavily damage Sarevok while healing Dorn. And the Poison Weapon's damage will add up, considering its number of uses/day at high levels.
TL;DR Dorn has more options. The only things Sarevok has going for him is higher HP and Deathbringer Assault. Also, lets face it, Sarevok isn't the sneaky or magic-using type, so while you COULD dual-class him, it doesn't really fit his character.
Well ... Sarevok dualed to mage .... , mirror image, stoneskin, inmunity to magic weapons, tenser .... gogo, if you do it when you get him it wont be a long time in tob, and learning all the spells is near to 1,5 millions xp
Strictly game-speaking, Dorn has access to the stat-increasing tomes (20 str? yes please), while Sarry doesn't. I'll still go with the black sheep of the family though, ma man Sarevok. Those Deathbringer assaults are epic, and in a fight, he'll last a long time.
Strictly game-speaking, Dorn has access to the stat-increasing tomes (20 str? yes please), while Sarry doesn't. I'll still go with the black sheep of the family though, ma man Sarevok. Those Deathbringer assaults are epic, and in a fight, he'll last a long time.
Not necessarily. They may change this in BG2EE, but NPCs weren't imported alongside the PC from BG1 to BG2, new versions of the NPCs appeared instead. You couldn't trick-out Minsc or Jaheira in BG1 with tomes and expect them to continue to be buffed by them in BG2. I expect to recruit Dorn out of a bar in Athkatla come BG2EE with pretty much the same stats he had in BGEE.
Strictly game-speaking, Dorn has access to the stat-increasing tomes (20 str? yes please), while Sarry doesn't. I'll still go with the black sheep of the family though, ma man Sarevok. Those Deathbringer assaults are epic, and in a fight, he'll last a long time.
Not necessarily. They may change this in BG2EE, but NPCs weren't imported alongside the PC from BG1 to BG2, new versions of the NPCs appeared instead. You couldn't trick-out Minsc or Jaheira in BG1 with tomes and expect them to continue to be buffed by them in BG2. I expect to recruit Dorn out of a bar in Athkatla come BG2EE with pretty much the same stats he had in BGEE.
I don't expect Tome stats will carry over, but they did give Jaheria a 3 point Dexterity boost, Minsc a 1 point boost to Dexterity and Constitution, Edwin a 1 point boost to Strength and Wisdom, and VIconia a 3 point boost to Wisdom. Perhaps Dorn will get 1 Constitution or something like that.
Sarevok is the child of a god who had embraced his powers. Sure, he's a few levels behind MAINCHAR who did the same (in the end of BG), but the advantages should be along the same lines.
Dorn is a blackguard to what might, perhaps, being kind, be a demon lord, but more probable a demon of around the power level of aec'letec or something along those lines, meaning, not even close to a god (a demon lord is enough to give pause to a god though).
Post-death Sarevok is a warrior of great skill and with the deathbringer assault and a flavor for intimidation, which probably wouldn't work well against Dorn.
As for blow by blow combat in the fight between them in throne of bhaal, they will both be capable of hitting each other more then once per round (-5 THAC0 vs an AC of about -10 including the -4 vs slashing weapons) meaning spells will be close to irrelevant, perhaps dorn will get a single spell without interuption before sarevok closes in, this would probably be a 15%-25% damage resistance from divine shield.
If they fight with greater whirlwind in mind Sarevok will win then by interupting even the first spell due to the improved haste effect and guaranteed interupt, death blow or whatever also makes all fights between high level warriors a dozey.
Then it's just a matter of who deals the most damage and who can take the most damage. Sarevok has got about 165 HP on level 17, on the same level, Dorn would have 106, tops (he has 8 on level one, rolling a 10 on each level after that until level 9 and then 3 hp every level after that gives him 106), in this instance, we can be kind and assume a divine shield, thus giving him 122 HP rounded up. Sarevok is a grand master of two-handed sword, this doesn't matter much in normal ToB though, it only gives him the same amount of damage and, together with his higher level an edge by 3 in thac0.
So, in the end, the combat will end, in about 7/10 in Sarevoks favor is my account, even if we don't care about the 5% chance each hit of getting a deathbringer assault, which is practically the same as insta-win since it deals enough damage to kill Dorn as it is combined with the normal attack, but since there is only 5 attacks or so before death, that is only a 1/4 chance of affecting the result.
Even maxed out, Sarevok has got 234 HP vs Dorns (after Divine shield) 204. If Sarevok where to use fighters defensive ability he would get 40% more, meaning 327, Dorn would get 270. Not entirely sure of what type of damage deathbringer assault does though, if it's non-physical, that would be an ever greater edge to Sarevok.
And, corrupting a holy sword, while cool, is not generally something which creates an item of the same power even if it does create a weapon of considerable power. And, yeah, corrupting Carsomyr would be kick-ass, especially if you had to kill the silver dragon to do it.
Comments
That means that Sarevok either gets the use of traps/stealth or arcane magic. I don't feel like breaking down the various skills and counters each version would employ against Dorn, since that's going to be mostly opinion at that point. However, since 19 strength is only barely better than 18/00 and melee capabilities tend to level off at higher levels, I see this matchup as Sarevok bringing a slight physical edge coupled with the full capabilities of either the thief or the mage. And I definitely favor Sarevok with that matchup.
Dorn might be able to use Carsomyr, though I doubt it. Know who definitely can? Fighter->Thief Sarevok with UAI =D
(And this thread DEFINITELY needs a spoiler tag!)
End of BG1: Level 8 Dorn vs. Level 15 boss-mode Sarevok
Advantage: Sarevok
I haven't beaten BGEE yet, but unless I'm missing something, this won't even be close. There isn't enough good gear in BG1 to get Dorn at Sarevok's level. Sarevok has better stats, a much better AC, a much better THAC0, high magic resist, and far, far sexier armor. Should be no contest. Dorn would need several consecutive crits to win.
Mid BG2: Dorn level 13 vs. Level 15 boss-mode Sarevok
Advantage: Slightly in Sarevok's favor
Could be wrong on this one. I gave Dorn equal xp to Sarevok at level 15, which puts him at level 13. Sarevok still has his god-mode magic resist, making Dorn's lifedrain and offensive spells not effective. Sarevok still has the stat advantage, but Dorn should have comparable gear at this point in BG2. Still, Sarevok's higher health and natural AC should offset his slightly inferior strength, and with magic resistance making this mostly a battle of dice, Sarevok should have the edge.
Beginning ToB: If memory serves, Dorn level 17 vs. Sarevok level 19
Advantage: Dorn
Sarevok is still a badass in melee, but has lost his magic resistance. Dorn now has a 34-point life drain, which nicely evens out the HP difference and then some, as well as a good handful of priestly abilities. Even conceding Sarevok equal gear levels (while in practice, Sarevok probably has generic magic stuff while Dorn is wearing dragonscale), Dorn's wider range of abilities should give him the edge.
End ToB: Dorn level 34 vs. Sarevok level 17ish->Mage/Thief
Advantage: Sarevok
Dorn's abilities have maxed out and should be quite powerful, but Sarevok remains a comparable melee combatant with the addition of either mastery of magic or thievery. Dorn's fledgling clerical abilities won't match up to either level 9/10 spells or UAI and backstabbing.
End ToB: Dorn level 34 vs. Sarevok level 40
Advantage: Dorn
Generic fighter won't hold a candle to Dorn's divine magic and special blackguard ability set. No contest.
1.) Although it has already been mentioned, the ability of Dorn to be able to use Carsomyr is unknown yet, so I can't put it one way or the other (my money is that he can't wield it, but it won't matter until we know if he can or not).
2.) Death Ward could be interrupted, so it isn't necessarily a hard stop to Deathbringer. Unless the fight is predetermined and they have preparation time (in which case, there are possibly other issues for both sides that I haven't thought of.) I assumed it was a more spontaneous fight, but at full rest status.
3.) You say Dorn hits harder: is this because of the poison/Aura of Despair/spells? Because without those, he only has 1 more damage, and then there is the increased damage from Sarevok's Grand Mastery.
Just curious, want to consider this epic duel from all points of view.
EDIT: I suppose on the topic of Carsomyr, what gear they have would have to be discussed at length as well.
so I can see where Quartz is coming from. He seems much much different than Rasaad and Neera in terms of character development, but perhaps that is just because he is an evil jerkwad.
To which I say, no, he will not. One, Carsomyr is a holy relic and is ludicrously powerful, more so than a level 14 Blackguard, who is still comparitively weaker than even BG1 Sarevok.
Two, there has never been an exception like this across the games. Its not like Korgan could wield Azuredge because he likes his women and booze and is pretty evil in general, so he could try to overpower the axe's enchantment because of his foulness.
Three, even if Dorn could wield Carsomyr, the sword would outright refuse to lend its true power to him. A Holy Avenger sword in the hands of anyone that isn't a Paladin acts as a normal +2 sword and nothing more. This is common DnD knowledge.
I'm sure they will introduce an evil version of Carsomyr sometime, but this talk of a Blackguard wielding a Paladin weapon is nonsense.
I agree that Dorn alone could not corrupt the sword, but perhaps Dorn's evil patron could corrupt the sword in order to further strengthen his unholy champion? And because of the popularity of Blackguards, they might make a Blackguard equivalent (then again, the smiting good thing really wouldn't Sarevok that much now would it).
Certainly an interesting thing to consider developing: more on Dorn's patron! And perhaps more significance to the background of this Holy Avenger Carsomyr (not "the" as there are plenty of Holy Avengers in Forgotten Realms), besides just a Red Dragon hiding one. Also, isn't it rather ironic that the Holy Avenger is one of the best weapons to fight a Red Dragon with, and you have to defeat the Red Dragon to get the weapon...to defeat it?
We'll have to see how his story progresses in BG2. A paladin, blackguard or traditional, starts off as little more than a fighter but I tend to view their eventual learning of priest spells as becoming more spiritually attuned to their god. A more spiritual and wise Dorn could be a totally different character, possibly prone to regret of past actions. We'll see.
Sarevok and Dorn would be fairly evenly matched at the beginning of ToB. Sarevok is tougher and has Deathbringer Assault. Dorn will have a small assortment of priest spells in addition to his Blackguard powers and considerable martial might.
But by the end of the Bhaalspawn saga, I think Dorn will be the strongest. He will be able to boost his offense and defense through his spells, and probably be able to withstand one or two Deathbringer Assaults via Armor of Faith. Aura of Despair will weaken Sarevok's regular hits as well. Absorb Health will also heavily damage Sarevok while healing Dorn. And the Poison Weapon's damage will add up, considering its number of uses/day at high levels.
TL;DR
Dorn has more options. The only things Sarevok has going for him is higher HP and Deathbringer Assault. Also, lets face it, Sarevok isn't the sneaky or magic-using type, so while you COULD dual-class him, it doesn't really fit his character.
I'll still go with the black sheep of the family though, ma man Sarevok. Those Deathbringer assaults are epic, and in a fight, he'll last a long time.
Sure, he's a few levels behind MAINCHAR who did the same (in the end of BG), but the advantages should be along the same lines.
Dorn is a blackguard to what might, perhaps, being kind, be a demon lord, but more probable a demon of around the power level of aec'letec or something along those lines, meaning, not even close to a god (a demon lord is enough to give pause to a god though).
Post-death Sarevok is a warrior of great skill and with the deathbringer assault and a flavor for intimidation, which probably wouldn't work well against Dorn.
As for blow by blow combat in the fight between them in throne of bhaal, they will both be capable of hitting each other more then once per round (-5 THAC0 vs an AC of about -10 including the -4 vs slashing weapons) meaning spells will be close to irrelevant, perhaps dorn will get a single spell without interuption before sarevok closes in, this would probably be a 15%-25% damage resistance from divine shield.
If they fight with greater whirlwind in mind Sarevok will win then by interupting even the first spell due to the improved haste effect and guaranteed interupt, death blow or whatever also makes all fights between high level warriors a dozey.
Then it's just a matter of who deals the most damage and who can take the most damage.
Sarevok has got about 165 HP on level 17, on the same level, Dorn would have 106, tops (he has 8 on level one, rolling a 10 on each level after that until level 9 and then 3 hp every level after that gives him 106), in this instance, we can be kind and assume a divine shield, thus giving him 122 HP rounded up.
Sarevok is a grand master of two-handed sword, this doesn't matter much in normal ToB though, it only gives him the same amount of damage and, together with his higher level an edge by 3 in thac0.
So, in the end, the combat will end, in about 7/10 in Sarevoks favor is my account, even if we don't care about the 5% chance each hit of getting a deathbringer assault, which is practically the same as insta-win since it deals enough damage to kill Dorn as it is combined with the normal attack, but since there is only 5 attacks or so before death, that is only a 1/4 chance of affecting the result.
Even maxed out, Sarevok has got 234 HP vs Dorns (after Divine shield) 204.
If Sarevok where to use fighters defensive ability he would get 40% more, meaning 327, Dorn would get 270.
Not entirely sure of what type of damage deathbringer assault does though, if it's non-physical, that would be an ever greater edge to Sarevok.
And, corrupting a holy sword, while cool, is not generally something which creates an item of the same power even if it does create a weapon of considerable power.
And, yeah, corrupting Carsomyr would be kick-ass, especially if you had to kill the silver dragon to do it.