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Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
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I'm (a little) disapointed... but all is not lost! lol

2

Comments

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    *OP calls developers smoking hippies*
    *A bit later on OP calls another user a 'Mr Know-it-all'*
    *OP claims to dislike hot-headed discussions*
    ...Okay...

    ScooterSCARY_WIZARDAnton
  • SkydogSkydog Member Posts: 111
    where's the new update?)
    Trent's twitt says it's about to come out.
    Can't wait...

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Better still if they make so much money on BG:EE and BG2:EE that they can decide if they want to rebuild the engine from the ground up. So long as they don't change or update the core rules set being applied, i would be totally happy with that.

    Ok, maybe that is a bit of a stretch, but a guy can dream can't he?

  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    edited January 2013
    kartonio said:

    i dont think sticking stricktly to the original is a must.

    This is where I disagree with you the most. I like BG because is an old school game and I believe it should remain so. There is plenty of modern games that play themselves already.

    GodKaiserHell
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    I'm more disappointed by still the similar level of hard coded engine limitation. I don't see any reason why BD/Overhaul shouldn't relax some rules. They've relaxed some rules already and contractual limitation applies to stories, characters, dialogues and maps only. The fact about contractual limitation is, as long as BD/Overhaul do not change it (users can change in whichever way they want), it's ok.

    It would kick ass to play as monk/ sorcerer, for example.

    Xavioria
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited January 2013
    Erg said:

    kartonio said:

    i dont think sticking stricktly to the original is a must.

    This is where I disagree with you the most. I like BG because is an old school game and I believe it should remain so. There is plenty of modern games that play themselves already.
    @Erg. I agree with you. And to take it a step further, I'd bet that the contract between Overhaul and Hasbro to make the game came with very explicit instructions that the main content was not to be altered to any degree.

    @Leeho730. I would bet there won't be any material changes in rules sets implemented in either game. By design and contract.

  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    kartonio said:

    Even a 3D engine would not have been bad if it showed the same isometric-like view (but could allow for rotation)

    Just thinking about that makes me shiver.
    kartonio said:

    I wanted the same strategical fights and free aerial point of vue, and of course the AD&D rules and spells, but had they remake the IA (which could have profoundly changed the course and winning strategies/group of the game) i would not have been against it.

    It is simply impossible to have the same strategical fights and a modified AI at the same time. I would welcome changes in the AI to make the figths more challenging, but only as optional mods.

    XavioriaScooter
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Erg said:

    It is simply impossible to have the same strategical fights and a modified AI at the same time. I would welcome changes in the AI to make the figths more challenging, but only as optional mods.

    Not only impossible, but the amount and scope of work involved would have been FAR above what they were thinking of when they started the project.

    @Kartonio. The inclusion of a 3D engine would have been to re develop the entire game from scratch. And would have involved someone somewhere along the lines wanting to "Fix" it to their liking. No thank you!!!!! I like BG just the way it is. Of course that is merely my opinion.

  • PlasticGolemPlasticGolem Member Posts: 98
    edited January 2013
    kartonio said:

    I must ask: did i pay for the portage to OSX and tablets???? I'm a PC player and excuse me but i feel kinda robbed...

    That's not how things work. If porting the game to other platforms means more copies are sold, it means the price per copy can be lower for everyone and the developers can still make a target amount of money. If software were priced on a fixed return model (calculate the money you want to make, add the development costs, and divide the total by the number of copies you expect to sell) that would mean that, as long as porting to OSX or iOS made more money than it cost, everyone benefits.

    Of course, that is also not the way software is really priced. Since the marginal cost of software is near zero and copyright grants a monopoly on distribution, actual software pricing is based on what people think its worth, which often bears no resemblance to the actual cost of developing it. In other words, the game costs $20 because that's what someone figured the market would bear. The profit margin might be tiny (or even a loss) or it might be huge, but you aren't buying a a commodity item: you can't just go and buy some competitor's Baldur's Gate who produces a PC-only version for half the price, so either it's worth the price to you or you find something better to spend your money on.

    - 3 new NPC ??? There are TONS of FREE new NPC on BG mods forums...
    - A new adventure? (This one is really a joke) it's separated from BG... this is a commercial announcement at best, pathetic...
    If you believe that the product was misrepresented at the time of purchase (you were led to believe you would be getting something you weren't) or if you believe that the software does not meet industry standards for quality and professionalism, you may have a point. Otherwise, if you don't feel that this version is not worth spending extra money on, you have the option of not buying it. However, it is not your place to say what other people should or should not value or what should or should not be offered to them for sale. You spend your money on what you want, and let others do the same.

    mch202
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,158
    The devs have stated, more than one, that a BG3, if done, WON'T use Infinity Engine, but a brand new engine.

    As much as I like Infinity Engine games, the engine itself is hard to mod, not modular in design and has always been bugged.

    Aristillius
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    @ mlnevese Availed with the source code, one would hope IE is not so fundamentally flawed as to be beyond correction.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,302
    edited January 2013
    I think that what I got for $18 is quite a bit. That's not a lot of money to spend.

    Here is the main value from BG:EE for me as a PC player: higher native resolutions, the zoom feature, three well conceived and professionally voiced NPCs, and the Black Pits. I do appreciate and enjoy the other things (GUI, new portraits and soundsets, and movies). But to me they're 'side dishes' to the 'meat'.

    I'm enjoying the Black Pits. To my surprise I actually think I prefer that it's its own separate adventure. There's something very satisfying about creating custom parties for it, and it not taking 6 weeks to complete.

    So I'm not complaining. And I do understand the contractual limitations. But in addition to more NPCs and mods from Beamdog via DLC down the road, I think the game will be hugely improved if we get more professionally voiced banters among the original 25 NPCs. That's one area that I was expecting a lot more in, and I'm still hopeful for. My hope is that WotC will sign off on that for DLC.

    SirK8
  • abbadabaabbadaba Member Posts: 21
    I understand that BGEE can be replicated using the original game plus a ton of mods. Obviously the poster is coming from the perspective of a long term hardcore player who has used many of these mods. I agree that someone who has played and modded the heck out of the original game probably wont get much value out of BGEE.

    From my non hardcore perspective BGEE is convenient and reasonably well polished. I've gotten nearly 100 hours of entertainment for 20 bucks, and it has been so long since I played the original I cant believe how much I've forgotten - it is almost a new game to me.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,158
    @Edwin It isn't beyond correction. But it is windows 95 optimized, and quite buggy. Modular philosophy of programming had not been created yet so it had a LOT of redundant code. Not being modular makes it hard to mod.

    They have achieved an excellent optimization level in the code already, what can be easily seen in the speed it now loads areas and saves games. Playing my BGT install now feels quite slow.

    Of course, trying to fix all this ancient code has brought to the surface many old bugs and added new bugs from the new code.

    But in no way Infinity Engine is ideal for a brand new game. It's hard to program for, as any modder can tell you, and it's still quite buggy. Most people did not realize how buggy it was because the modding community created workarounds along the years. Now those workarounds are being incorporated in the source code not as tricks, but as actual fixes. For instance there were some in-game functions that just did not work that were fixed by the EE. Some even used to crash the game if used in a script.

    It will be faster to develop an entirely new engine than trying to use the ancient Infinity for an entirely new game. This way it can be modular by design and ready to use all the technology created after Infinity engine was originally released and it can be optimized for modern multithreaded processors from start.

    CorianderIsandirCuv
  • kartoniokartonio Member Posts: 13
    edited January 2013
    @Erg: yeah of course all of these options would be optional.

    And about the engine or IA remake it was a "if they had..." sentence, im fine with keeping the old graphics (not for the icons, the spells nor the water)...

    But! I think it wouldnt have been that bad, because a game being "old school" does not depend very much on its look... It's the mechanics, story and background that are important. A game being beautiful doesnt make it bad or casual...
    legend of grimrock is a good example of an old school remake with a nice look. And im sure you could rework the engine of BG and still keep the same view and the same feelings.

    Why shiver about an engine change? You wont feel it's BG if you can see the other side of a mansion??? even if the view is locked very high (like the isometric original game) ??? i dont see why you cant make a classic game with high-tech graphics or IA .... this is ... rigid on your part i think.
    When a remake of a movie is made its so obvious they wont take the same actors or places, doesnt mean it wont be the same story or even feeling. Without going that far, remaking a classical game does not nescessarly means (for me) to stick stricktly to the original in terms of technology and interface...

    The very isometric style you seem to love of BG, fallout and others was created to emulate 3D because computers back then couldn't handle a full 3D objects and texture database and render it quickly enough. They had to cheat. I really wonder if given the same project with today's possibilities they would still go for ISO...

    @PlasticGolem: So full of passion! And btw, i never said what people should or should not or should perhaps possibly be putting any value whatsoever upon any kind of material or immaterial or semi-material propriety being exchanged against any type of currency...

    @mlnevese: i agree, but modular programing is older than you seem to think. object oriented philosophy comes from the 70s and was widely used when BG came out... Im not sure it is that obscure... (but truth be told i dont know)

  • CerevantCerevant Member Posts: 2,314
    Hey there...go easy on us old guys. We were learning structured programming back in the 80's, and copy-paste code wasn't acceptable back then. Somebody at Bioware should have had their knuckles whacked with a ruler!

    As for me, wrapping all the patches and fix-packs up with the widescreen mod is worth $20 by itself. The new content is gravy.

    CuvAnton
  • JTMJTM Member Posts: 70
    kartonio said:

    ...I was hoping for the same story of course, the same NPCs and places but i wouldn't have screamed betrayal if they had redone all the graphics for example... Even a 3D engine would not have been bad if it showed the same isometric-like view (but could allow for rotation)
    I wanted the same strategical fights and free aerial point of vue, and of course the AD&D rules and spells, but had they remake the IA (which could have profoundly changed the course and winning strategies/group of the game) i would not have been against it.

    I would have loved to see BG1 with HD graphics. It looks like they tried but couldn't find the original artwork...http://www.vg247.com/2012/12/17/baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition-dev-discussed-asset-creation/

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    In all honesty I think the biggest thing I'm disappointed in is the fact that I bought my boyfriend the iPad version of the game along with my PC version, and we STILL can't play together, even though the advanced multiplayer was one of the things advertised.

    We still do not have it.

    I've decided to wait patiently for it. This series of games has been my FAVORITE game of ALL TIME for ten years. I can't get enough of this game, it has everything I love, and now, because they updated the game, I don't have to worry about the game not being able to work on future operating systems, because it will now :). Thank you beamdog for giving BG the fountain of youth.

    Yes it's buggy (I don't know if anyone REMEMBERS the BG2 bug of "(character) appears busy"? New computer games come out with bugs sometimes, the fact that there have been 6 patches in basically 2 months says alot about the dedication beamdog has for this project, so I have no worry that in a few more months, this game will live up to the standard and even moreso!

    As for those of you condemning @kartonio for downloading free mods and telling him he didn't pay for them is probably the only thing in this thread that made me laugh. You guys have a point, that's true, but the point totally deviate's from the OP's point and is just a strawman to steer the arguement. He's talking about THIS project, and how he feels he's being gyped because it's basically a regular BG game with mods, and I suppose from an initial glance that might be true. I, of course, disagree, but only somewhat.

    The game has been out for two months. TWO MONTHS. That's a blip on the lifetime of THIS particular game. Yes they are currently working on BG2 and BG3, but I'm sure they also have people stationed on fixing and adding to BG1! I remember hearing about new hires from beamdog, so I'm sure that has something to do with it. As for future DLCs costing money... how is that moneygrabbing?? Go to EA with the Sims... THAT is moneygrabbing. This isn't, why? Because the game itself was 15 dollars for a preorder and now it's only 20. I'm sure they'll need more money to keep doing work on this game that you're complaining isn't up to par yet.

    I eagerly await future content, fixes, BG2:EE, BG3, and Subraces that include Aasimar and Tieflings! I also humbly thank the team for releasing this soon to be great remake of my favorite game series of all time!

    Anton
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,158
    kartonio said:

    @mlnevese: i agree, but modular programing is older than you seem to think. object oriented philosophy comes from the 70s and was widely used when BG came out... Im not sure it is that obscure... (but truth be told i dont know)

    You're quite right in this. I should have said it wasn't used at all in the original engine :)

  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    @mlnevese I'm glad others have spoke up about modular code, as OOP was definitely de-rigueur back when I was in college (the same time BG came out.)

    I realize it would be a substantial undertaking but I hoped what I was getting with BGEE was a conversion of the old code to a semantic equivalency using modern coding practice.

  • HogfatherHogfather Member Posts: 27
    edited January 2013
    The scaling of icons and char pictures with screen resolution, and the compatibility on OSX and tablets is the ONLY actual and real work you did on this game...
    Stopped right there.

    GodKaiserHell
  • Aasimar069Aasimar069 Member Posts: 803
    edited January 2013
    Aosaw said:

    I can tell you that the insults and unfounded accusations are offensive on a personal level.

    Everyone's free to form and express their opinions about the game, but not if they do it in a manner that is intentionally hurtful or malicious.

    Feel free to give this thread another try with a less combative tone; I'm closing this one.

    EDIT: Looks like I was ninja'd by some positive changes. I'll reopen the thread, in the hopes that it stays civil.

    @Aosaw :

    The last patches have proven that Overhaul Game's team members were taking seriously their customers given the endeavors they have put to fix the bugs that plagued the original release (still there are some VERY annoying ones that remains...).

    But you can't ignore that the crashes and music/sound problems that we have experienced at release were quite disappointing and many people had a bad opinion of this project.

    I have currenty two friends asking me if this EE edition is worth buying. I won't tell them it's ok until it is more polished.

    So far, and amongst other bugs these nasty ones still need to be fixed :

    - The no-comply-to-orders bug is a very nasty one.
    - The broken AI scripts (default script is broken, ranged one is not satisfactory).
    - Missing sounds and voicesets (Nimbul, Bassilus, ...)
    - Various THAC0 / combat dices calculation problem
    - Some items stats are not properly applied (Gauntlets of expertise, ...).
    - Some elements in the new content are broken (chest in the temple cannot be looted, ...).
    - Not enough options in the game menu (pathfinding, IA updates, graphical options, ... all of these should be in the menu, not in an .ini file when we are in 2013).
    - Movies are still missing (though new ones and tweaks to the intro have been added).

    EDIT : I have seen there's a new patch out (probably during the night for us europeans ...). Let's see what has been fixed and what still remains to be fixed. ;-)

    Post edited by Aasimar069 on
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285

    Erg said:

    kartonio said:

    i dont think sticking stricktly to the original is a must.

    @Leeho730. I would bet there won't be any material changes in rules sets implemented in either game. By design and contract.

    Oh, relaxing hard coded rule does not mean change of the rule. For example, relaxing hard coded rule regarding Barbarianan HP means that while in BGEE Barbarian still rolls D12 for HP people can edit so that Barbarians roll D10 or D14 instead.

    It's more of programming perspective.... Like see how Beamdog/Overhaul changed BG2 programmes to accommodate modern resolution incl, widescreen, zoom in/out, faster quicksand/quick load? Same stuff. Just releasing some 2DA, EFF files from EXE to BIF so that they can be overridden. Safe? No more dangerous than editing other 2DA files, but it does allow some deep stuffs such as race (who wants drow race?) class combinations (Paladin/Cleric? Bring it on!) damage types, avatar etc.

  • Kitteh_On_A_CloudKitteh_On_A_Cloud Member Posts: 1,629
    Some people, especially the OP, should look up the definition of 'enhanced' in a dictionary. Dictionaries are your friends.

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,158
    edited January 2013
    Edwin said:

    @mlnevese I'm glad others have spoke up about modular code, as OOP was definitely de-rigueur back when I was in college (the same time BG came out.)

    I realize it would be a substantial undertaking but I hoped what I was getting with BGEE was a conversion of the old code to a semantic equivalency using modern coding practice.

    @Edwin If the code is so badly broken as the Devs have said, I think it would be easier to write a new Engine that can read the original datafiles than streamline the old code. This of course would not be practical.

    I remember Trent Oster commenting that one of the bugs in Multiplayer was due to Area Transition being present in the code in four different places. One of the copies of the function had a bug that made the game crash only in a multiplayer game.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    @Aasimar069
    I do understand, and I'm not about to stop people from expressing themselves. What concerned me was that the original expression of that feeling in this thread was accompanied by some rather rude accusations and judgments of character--and when anyone attempted to defend the developers, that judgment was transferred to those people as well.

    Civil discussions about the flaws in the game are perfectly acceptable; personal attacks are not. That was why I had originally closed the thread, but I hadn't seen the tone shift in the post that directly preceded the one you quoted; once I saw it, I reopened it again.

    I'll reiterate: I have no problems with people not liking the game (or certain aspects of the game), as long as that opinion is not expressed with violence.

    Aasimar069CerevantXavioria
  • hummer010hummer010 Member Posts: 95
    Sylonce said:

    Besides that though, the EE feels almost exactly like the old 1998 game.

    This is a good thing. This is what I was buying. If it hadn't felt exactly playing the 1998 game, I would have been bitter.

    I guess you can't please all the people all the time.

    SirK8CerevantDerDuKemch202
  • SirK8SirK8 Member Posts: 527
    Erg said:

    kartonio said:

    When a remake of a movie is made its so obvious they wont take the same actors or places, doesnt mean it wont be the same story or even feeling. Without going that far, remaking a classical game does not nescessarly means (for me) to stick stricktly to the original in terms of technology and interface...

    BGEE was never meant to be a remake, but a restoration. I believe your disappointment may originate from erroneous expectations on your part.
    This. I think the OP has a different view about this and expected a remake of the game, which it is not. I am very pleased with what I got out of the Enhanced Edition. If it weren't for this game launching, I would never have known that there were so many community mods available for BG. I played BG back when it originally released and enjoyed the game, but the only mod I knew about was the XP cap remover, because I went specifically looking for it back in the day.

    Just the announcement of this game prompted me to purchase BG1&2 on GOG and play again. Since I had read about modding on these forums, I used BGT, UB and the fixpacks and really enjoyed the game. However, I still feel like I got my $ worth on this game (which I had pre-ordered). For me the worth came with the zoom feature, running in BG2 engine (graphics, spells, kits, etc.), very fast load times (i.e. no loading screens) and widescreen resolution. All of this without installing any mods. I would have paid $20 for just those features alone, everything else to me is extra goodies.

    DerDuKe
  • SylonceSylonce Member Posts: 65
    edited January 2013
    hummer010 said:

    Sylonce said:

    Besides that though, the EE feels almost exactly like the old 1998 game.

    This is a good thing. This is what I was buying. If it hadn't felt exactly playing the 1998 game, I would have been bitter.

    I guess you can't please all the people all the time.

    If I wanted to feel what it's like to play the 1998 game, I'd play the 1998 game, which still works perfectly on today's windows. There is a handy site out there called gog.com if you want to exactly play a game from the '90s.

    But my point wasn't for the sake of nostalgia. It's about what changed since then and what didn't, and what precisely makes the Enhanced Edition more "enhanced."

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