I definitely see Nalia as Lawful Evil for sure! I can't see Minsc changing alignment for anything, he's too brain addled and good natured for that IMHO. And Aerie doesn't need to be powerhungry to be evil. Edwin is powerhungry, yes. Viconia isn't though. Chasing vengeance has made plenty of characters evil, just look at any contemporary literature or movies (star wars) and you'll find that
Well, didn't Anakin fall because he wanted more power and respect? Not to mention he was always a bit arrogant, I feel.
People who've had a lot abuse could end up being bitter and resentful of the world, but there are many like Aerie who just figure they don't want others to go through the same as them, and devote their lives to being nice and stopping that kind of abuse. I think the difference may be the amount of empathy they have; that and the 'instinct' to protect seem like key personality traits in Aerie. Although I could see Aerie becoming like one of those Marvel comics heroes who do good, but whose methods are often questioned and at times just as brutal as the villains they fight (which I think is what happens in her non-romance ending).
I think in ToB, Aerie isn't necessarily Lawful Good anymore; I think she's closer to Neutral Good, and later might change to Chaotic Good. But the Good part just seems too ingrained into her.
Aerie just doesn't have the ambition or lust for power; she's only interested in exploring the world, and kicking slavers butts when she can. Now, Nalia OTOH, is highly ambitious; that's an alignment shift I think could really be made to work.
I think part of it is that Aerie's alignment is such an important aspect of her personality and character that it's very difficult, if not impossible, to imagine a plausible scenario in which she would undergo a such a drastic alignment shift. The sort of things that make a person "good" are some of Aerie's most defining personality traits, and are at the same time exactly the sort of things that make her less vulnerable to the temptations that lead a person to commit evil acts.
There are other characters who I can't see undergoing an alignment change for much the same reason. For example, so many of Edwin's integral personality traits are so quintessentially typical of an evil alignment that, while I can see him shifting on the law-chaos axis, I have trouble imagining him following Viconia's example and transitioning to even a neutral alignment, let alone some flavor of good.
Other characters, like Nalia mentioned above, or any of the characters whose alignment the PC has the opportunity to influence in-game are more fluid. The things that make them who they are are not typical "good" or "evil" traits, so it's much easier to imagine a scenario that would cause them to change alignment.
That said, I think Evil!Aerie would look exactly like Good!Aerie. Why would she look or even dress any differently? The tendency to indicate a character's goodness of evilness by the colors they wear or the relative trampiness of their outfits is one that I personally find disagreeable.
@mlnevese interesting... and I love the sparks of convo on here... even if they don't agree with me... but on a more serious note...
I really think that most if not all of Aerie's Lawful part of her alignment is much more because of her innocence/naivete, as opposed to her general nature. It is difficult to argue her good nature though, and i suppose this would remind me of Kivan a little (I don't understand why all these elves I'm meeting need vengeance all the time). Striving to do good deeds yet wanting or needing some type of closure to their own personal issues.
I suppose one issue I can see with Aerie turning evil is motive... people think of selfish, or bloodthirsty with these types of alignments, which is generally true, and I suppose if she were like Viconia (Pretty much hated everywhere) I could see her turning evil more readily.
I think for me... her want for revenge and how angry she gets at Korgan, and her response afterwards somewhat seals it for me. She has little patience and gets angry kind of easily. I can definitely see a character like that turning evil if done right...
As for other characters changing alignment besides Nalia... I cannot truly think of any from the second game. ALTHOUGH I can say right now that number 2 needs more NPCs anyways.....
I really think that most if not all of Aerie's Lawful part of her alignment is much more because of her innocence/naivete, as opposed to her general nature. It is difficult to argue her good nature though, and i suppose this would remind me of Kivan a little (I don't understand why all these elves I'm meeting need vengeance all the time). Striving to do good deeds yet wanting or needing some type of closure to their own personal issues.
I think the 'Lawful' is more to do with her being essentially a former, broken slave and so inclined to obey and defer to others in most circumstances, unless she's asked to do something she's strongly morally opposed to. I think Neutral Good is more her natural state.
I think for me... her want for revenge and how angry she gets at Korgan, and her response afterwards somewhat seals it for me. She has little patience and gets angry kind of easily. I can definitely see a character like that turning evil if done right...
There's no doubt she does have pent up anger, but she shows way more patience with Korgan's harassment than most women would. When she does get angry, it is explosive, but she has to really be pushed. Later on she'll calm down though and return to normal, so I don't think getting angry is an indicator for alignment. Aerie's obviously learnt to redirect most of her anger into other things... chores, studying etc. And as an adventurer, she can direct it at all the bad guys she fights as well.
I somehow doubt that chauvinistic racist man-pig Korgan and Shar-teel would get along well...
While we're on the subject of general alignment switches, how would one think Imoen could be corrupted? Personally, I wouldn't mind a late SoA or ToB section where Anomen really falls off the bandwagon and goes for Chaotic Evil under Talos' influence. (Being Chaotic Neutral, the game still has him pegged as a follower of Helm after his 'fall' but Talos is a much better fit at that point).
But what, as @VittordeVitto suggests, you threw her baby into the woods. I bet that would do it.
It would make her very, and justifiably, angry, but I wouldn't say it would make her evil. Besides, the only way she could have a baby is with the bhaalspawn romancing her, so you'd be throwing your own baby into the woods.
@Drugar well... it's a bit weird really... he's fallen as far as a paladin is concerned, barred from the order.
But, well there's never really anything that I know of that shows him taking up another faith after being dispelled from TMNOTRH, I don't think he's even rejected as a priest of Helm.
Not saying it's a bad idea, but AFAIK there's nothing in game to show him losing faith in Helm and gaining any other faith.
Lawful Evil Aerie: Since a lot of Aerie's issues come from feeling weak and incapable, an evil Aerie grows accustomed to exerting her will upon others with charm, domination and other mental control spells, leading to full on Dark Side "Your toenails are spiders, you should remove them quickly before they bite you" levels of mindrape, wrapping all the way around from Doormat to Dominatrix.
Aerievl in general might still do a lot of Good things, saving slaves, liberating the weak and so on, but anyone who crosses her or denies her would lead to brutal mental and physical torture whilst she watches.
On the plus side, she'd probably whine a lot less, and once she was done with Korgan, he'd probably not even dare to look her in the eye.
As for the Chaotic aspect, I'd be less sure of a face-turn, Lawful means consistent, and she is definitely, if nothing else, consistent in her behaviour. Lawful Evil Aerie would be perfectly as capable of brutality as a Chaotic Evil Aerie, only a more targeted, precise form of evil.
Neutral Evil Imoen: Since she follows around, and idolises, CHARNAME, I don't see her becoming Evil in her own right, but more as a lesser reflection of CHARNAME's own darkness. She might end up performing the same villainous acts he did, but it would be as echoes of the Bhaalspawn's passing, rather than her own will in the matter. Imoevil would probably still end up acting exactly the same - sweet, friendly and behaved, and just like Imogood, would start up a thieves guild, hang around with arcane superpowers, and deny everything.
I considered Nalia to be Evil already, especially when Throne of Bhaal comes around.
But what, as @VittordeVitto suggests, you threw her baby into the woods. I bet that would do it.
It would make her very, and justifiably, angry, but I wouldn't say it would make her evil. Besides, the only way she could have a baby is with the bhaalspawn romancing her, so you'd be throwing your own baby into the woods.
DNA Exam pls ? LOL
Well, you do have to have slept with her, a lot, so in the absence of evidence to the contrary I think we have to assume that the bhaalspawn is the father like she says. In any case though, she would turn hostile, so we'd never find out if she could have turned evil as well.
But I think people do make the mistake of thinking that losing her wings is the only thing Aerie cares about. I think it's more the being kidnapped from her home, tortured, broken, kept in a cage and being subjected to a long period of abuse finally culminating in the amputation of her wings... and she doesn't even whine about it. That's correct; whining means to constantly complain about something, especially something trivial. Again, Aerie only talks to the bhaalspawn if he's romancing her, so not constant. And unless you're The Doctor, the last survivor of a war in which entire solar systems were destroyed along with your own people, you're not likely to be in a position where you can call all that trivial.
Not saying everyone needs to like Aerie as a character, but a lot of the hate I see seems to be based on various stereotypes and labels, rather than anything to do with Aerie. Like I've seen people call her a 'Valley Girl'; there's just not many things that are further away from her, since she's not affluent or materialistic and she does sometimes use quite big words. Or in fanfic where she complains and gets upset about her dress getting splashed with dirt or something like that... yet, she's just come from working in a traveling circus, places not generally regarded for pristine cleanliness. It makes no sense.
Not saying that she's a perfectly sweet little angel either; obviously she does have some pent up anger. And I've said many times that fics where she's too sweet and has no anger, determination or aggression are more caricatures of her than the fics where she's a valley girl, since the later isn't a caricature at all.
Sorry... I just meant to say the she would turn hostile, not evil, thing... I ended up ranting a bit I suppose. Sorry.
I somehow doubt that chauvinistic racist man-pig Korgan and Shar-teel would get along well...
While we're on the subject of general alignment switches, how would one think Imoen could be corrupted? Personally, I wouldn't mind a late SoA or ToB section where Anomen really falls off the bandwagon and goes for Chaotic Evil under Talos' influence. (Being Chaotic Neutral, the game still has him pegged as a follower of Helm after his 'fall' but Talos is a much better fit at that point).
There are Chaotic Neutral gods, no need to call Chaotic Evil gods already ^^
But what, as @VittordeVitto suggests, you threw her baby into the woods. I bet that would do it.
It would make her very, and justifiably, angry, but I wouldn't say it would make her evil. Besides, the only way she could have a baby is with the bhaalspawn romancing her, so you'd be throwing your own baby into the woods.
DNA Exam pls ? LOL
Well, you do have to have slept with her, a lot, so in the absence of evidence to the contrary I think we have to assume that the bhaalspawn is the father like she says. In any case though, she would turn hostile, so we'd never find out if she could have turned evil as well.
Slept with her once and she is already pregnant ? I think she is using poor CHARNAME to keep her son because someone he murdered in the circus tent was the real father.
I mean, we "exercise" with Jaheira and Viconia a lot of times and they don't get pregnant
There's something odd here.
There should be a quest to scry if CHARNAME was the real father or not.
But what, as @VittordeVitto suggests, you threw her baby into the woods. I bet that would do it.
It would make her very, and justifiably, angry, but I wouldn't say it would make her evil. Besides, the only way she could have a baby is with the bhaalspawn romancing her, so you'd be throwing your own baby into the woods.
DNA Exam pls ? LOL
Well, you do have to have slept with her, a lot, so in the absence of evidence to the contrary I think we have to assume that the bhaalspawn is the father like she says. In any case though, she would turn hostile, so we'd never find out if she could have turned evil as well.
Slept with her once and she is already pregnant ? I think she is using poor CHARNAME to keep her son because someone he murdered in the circus tent was the real father.
I mean, we "exercise" with Jaheira and Viconia a lot of times and they don't get pregnant
Going at it like rabbits, according to Jan. As for the other two, I imagine Jaheira is very in touch with her cycles, and Vic practices safe sex, obviously (in so much as there's a safe word).
But what, as @VittordeVitto suggests, you threw her baby into the woods. I bet that would do it.
It would make her very, and justifiably, angry, but I wouldn't say it would make her evil. Besides, the only way she could have a baby is with the bhaalspawn romancing her, so you'd be throwing your own baby into the woods.
DNA Exam pls ? LOL
Well, you do have to have slept with her, a lot, so in the absence of evidence to the contrary I think we have to assume that the bhaalspawn is the father like she says. In any case though, she would turn hostile, so we'd never find out if she could have turned evil as well.
Slept with her once and she is already pregnant ? I think she is using poor CHARNAME to keep her son because someone he murdered in the circus tent was the real father.
I mean, we "exercise" with Jaheira and Viconia a lot of times and they don't get pregnant
Going at it like rabbits, according to Jan. As for the other two, I imagine Jaheira is very in touch with her cycles, and Vic practices safe sex, obviously (in so much as there's a safe word).
There is "safe sex" in the forgotten realms lore ?
O.o
Nice ! LOL
Jan is just envy, you can't trust him. Allerie is not the kind of girl that "do it like a rabbit".
We always know when you people had sex with CHARNAME that is always a dialogue in the game.
We always know when you people had sex with CHARNAME that is always a dialogue in the game.
No; it's only announced the first time. Any time your party rests or travels after that, you know they're doing it and probably poor Jan's losing sleep.
No; it's only announced the first time. Any time your party rests or travels after that, you know they're doing it and probably poor Jan's losing sleep.
How can you be so sure ?
I remember that everytime me and vic did something she talked (before or after).
No; it's only announced the first time. Any time your party rests or travels after that, you know they're doing it and probably poor Jan's losing sleep.
How can you be so sure ?
I remember that everytime me and vic did something she talked (before or after).
It's implied through the dialogue. And you are travelling around together for a while; I would have to imagine a lot more goes on off-screen. Same with all the romances.
But, in any case, she isn't pregnant until after sleeping with CHARNAME, so it doesn't matter how often they've done it, he is the dad. It's got nothing to do with frequency.
The whole bit about a question of paternity has to do with how short of a time it is before she has a baby. According to the Complete Book of Elves, an elf pregnancy lasts two years. Even if Aerie were human, her pregnancy in the game is exceedingly short. There is, of course, the possibility of your Bhaal essence speeding things up, but then the question is how a baby developing that fast doesn't kill her. Just to be clear, I will point out that I am of the opinion that it is the protagonist's baby. Just thought I'd explain the reasoning.
The whole bit about a question of paternity has to do with how short of a time it is before she has a baby. According to the Complete Book of Elves, an elf pregnancy lasts two years. Even if Aerie were human, her pregnancy in the game is exceedingly short. There is, of course, the possibility of your Bhaal essence speeding things up, but then the question is how a baby developing that fast doesn't kill her. Just to be clear, I will point out that I am of the opinion that it is the protagonist's baby. Just thought I'd explain the reasoning.
I was being facetious. Although I've never had her give birth before the end of the game without using the console to force it, but I know it is ridiculously sped up. I don't know how it would physically affect her if the bhaal essence does speed things up. We know most of the people in Saradush led quite normal lives, but mothers other than Charname's own aren't mentioned; she's either killed, or dies giving birth, depending on who you want to believe (Gorion or the Solar).
There are theories about ways pregnancy could be safely sped up in real life; since Aerie's a cleric and a mage, I'm sure if anyone can get herself through it, it's probably her. Although I don't know why I'm defending it, since I actually hate the whole pregnancy plot; I regard it as one of the lowest points in the whole game.
Comments
People who've had a lot abuse could end up being bitter and resentful of the world, but there are many like Aerie who just figure they don't want others to go through the same as them, and devote their lives to being nice and stopping that kind of abuse. I think the difference may be the amount of empathy they have; that and the 'instinct' to protect seem like key personality traits in Aerie. Although I could see Aerie becoming like one of those Marvel comics heroes who do good, but whose methods are often questioned and at times just as brutal as the villains they fight (which I think is what happens in her non-romance ending).
I think in ToB, Aerie isn't necessarily Lawful Good anymore; I think she's closer to Neutral Good, and later might change to Chaotic Good. But the Good part just seems too ingrained into her.
There are other characters who I can't see undergoing an alignment change for much the same reason. For example, so many of Edwin's integral personality traits are so quintessentially typical of an evil alignment that, while I can see him shifting on the law-chaos axis, I have trouble imagining him following Viconia's example and transitioning to even a neutral alignment, let alone some flavor of good.
Other characters, like Nalia mentioned above, or any of the characters whose alignment the PC has the opportunity to influence in-game are more fluid. The things that make them who they are are not typical "good" or "evil" traits, so it's much easier to imagine a scenario that would cause them to change alignment.
That said, I think Evil!Aerie would look exactly like Good!Aerie. Why would she look or even dress any differently? The tendency to indicate a character's goodness of evilness by the colors they wear or the relative trampiness of their outfits is one that I personally find disagreeable.
-Blue
I really think that most if not all of Aerie's Lawful part of her alignment is much more because of her innocence/naivete, as opposed to her general nature. It is difficult to argue her good nature though, and i suppose this would remind me of Kivan a little (I don't understand why all these elves I'm meeting need vengeance all the time). Striving to do good deeds yet wanting or needing some type of closure to their own personal issues.
I suppose one issue I can see with Aerie turning evil is motive... people think of selfish, or bloodthirsty with these types of alignments, which is generally true, and I suppose if she were like Viconia (Pretty much hated everywhere) I could see her turning evil more readily.
I think for me... her want for revenge and how angry she gets at Korgan, and her response afterwards somewhat seals it for me. She has little patience and gets angry kind of easily. I can definitely see a character like that turning evil if done right...
As for other characters changing alignment besides Nalia... I cannot truly think of any from the second game. ALTHOUGH I can say right now that number 2 needs more NPCs anyways.....
THAT would be truly epic...
Finally, I could make him and Viconia get along.
While we're on the subject of general alignment switches, how would one think Imoen could be corrupted?
Personally, I wouldn't mind a late SoA or ToB section where Anomen really falls off the bandwagon and goes for Chaotic Evil under Talos' influence. (Being Chaotic Neutral, the game still has him pegged as a follower of Helm after his 'fall' but Talos is a much better fit at that point).
But, well there's never really anything that I know of that shows him taking up another faith after being dispelled from TMNOTRH, I don't think he's even rejected as a priest of Helm.
Not saying it's a bad idea, but AFAIK there's nothing in game to show him losing faith in Helm and gaining any other faith.
Aerievl in general might still do a lot of Good things, saving slaves, liberating the weak and so on, but anyone who crosses her or denies her would lead to brutal mental and physical torture whilst she watches.
On the plus side, she'd probably whine a lot less, and once she was done with Korgan, he'd probably not even dare to look her in the eye.
As for the Chaotic aspect, I'd be less sure of a face-turn, Lawful means consistent, and she is definitely, if nothing else, consistent in her behaviour. Lawful Evil Aerie would be perfectly as capable of brutality as a Chaotic Evil Aerie, only a more targeted, precise form of evil.
Neutral Evil Imoen: Since she follows around, and idolises, CHARNAME, I don't see her becoming Evil in her own right, but more as a lesser reflection of CHARNAME's own darkness. She might end up performing the same villainous acts he did, but it would be as echoes of the Bhaalspawn's passing, rather than her own will in the matter. Imoevil would probably still end up acting exactly the same - sweet, friendly and behaved, and just like Imogood, would start up a thieves guild, hang around with arcane superpowers, and deny everything.
I considered Nalia to be Evil already, especially when Throne of Bhaal comes around.
But I think people do make the mistake of thinking that losing her wings is the only thing Aerie cares about. I think it's more the being kidnapped from her home, tortured, broken, kept in a cage and being subjected to a long period of abuse finally culminating in the amputation of her wings... and she doesn't even whine about it. That's correct; whining means to constantly complain about something, especially something trivial. Again, Aerie only talks to the bhaalspawn if he's romancing her, so not constant. And unless you're The Doctor, the last survivor of a war in which entire solar systems were destroyed along with your own people, you're not likely to be in a position where you can call all that trivial.
Not saying everyone needs to like Aerie as a character, but a lot of the hate I see seems to be based on various stereotypes and labels, rather than anything to do with Aerie. Like I've seen people call her a 'Valley Girl'; there's just not many things that are further away from her, since she's not affluent or materialistic and she does sometimes use quite big words. Or in fanfic where she complains and gets upset about her dress getting splashed with dirt or something like that... yet, she's just come from working in a traveling circus, places not generally regarded for pristine cleanliness. It makes no sense.
Not saying that she's a perfectly sweet little angel either; obviously she does have some pent up anger. And I've said many times that fics where she's too sweet and has no anger, determination or aggression are more caricatures of her than the fics where she's a valley girl, since the later isn't a caricature at all.
Sorry... I just meant to say the she would turn hostile, not evil, thing... I ended up ranting a bit I suppose. Sorry.
Shame on you !
I mean, we "exercise" with Jaheira and Viconia a lot of times and they don't get pregnant
There's something odd here.
There should be a quest to scry if CHARNAME was the real father or not.
Maybe in BG2 EE ?
She was abused, rapped, stripped of her wings, molested, bla bla bla ...
Then she meets a real kind soon to be god of murder who says nice things first then toss their baby in the woods.
Thats.. just... TOO MUCH.
O.o
Nice ! LOL
Jan is just envy, you can't trust him. Allerie is not the kind of girl that "do it like a rabbit".
We always know when you people had sex with CHARNAME that is always a dialogue in the game.
But, in any case, she isn't pregnant until after sleeping with CHARNAME, so it doesn't matter how often they've done it, he is the dad. It's got nothing to do with frequency.
There are theories about ways pregnancy could be safely sped up in real life; since Aerie's a cleric and a mage, I'm sure if anyone can get herself through it, it's probably her. Although I don't know why I'm defending it, since I actually hate the whole pregnancy plot; I regard it as one of the lowest points in the whole game.