The news on Baeloth is very disappointing, but to be fair, mages are so oversaturated in BG2 - especially with Neera joining the cast. It still sucks that we lose our only Sorceror NPC though (being OP adds to that sting). =(
On the topic of Evil thieves, I do agree that they desperately need one. However, I'm not a big fan of Jan (he annoys the hell out of me), so it doesn't matter what alignment I roll - I don't feel like I have a solid thief choice anywhere. For those that argue that good-aligned parties have Imoen, well she's technically the truest neutral NPC you can get, because she would literally never leave you no matter what you do (besides abandoning her of course). She's pretty mute in SoA, but she gets along pretty well with just about everyone in ToB (like Korgan for instance).
Also, I feel like good-aligned parties lack a solid backstabber character (technically there isn't one in the game period). I mean you can argue that Valygar can do that for you, but he lacks the other thieving abilities and his backstabs are mediocre at best. He's almost as half-assed in backstabbing as Nalia in thieving. His saving grace is that he's versatile, has good APR, and has solid THAC0 progression, whereas Nalia just sucks at thieving period unless you chug thieving pots on her. Admittedly thieving pots are quite abundant, but it's a hassle to do in comparison to having a REAL thief.
So if we are limited to only one new thief NPC, I'll have to side with @Gallowglass on this one. A neutral Assassin would probably be best to cover as many bases as possible (preferably Duergar female). I want a solid backstabber NPC for my good-aligned parties, too, you know. =(
When you're covering bases, the best decision is to cover the base that has no cover whatsoever. There is not a single NPC that is both Evil alignment and any sort of Thief. That is the hole that needs filling first before Good and Neutral get even more characters with Thief levels.
Rasaad, Dorn, and Neera will all be returning in Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition. They'll have quests that span SoA to ToB, and will interact with the other existing NPCs. As I mentioned on Twitter, there is one more NPC to be announced.
Baeloth will not be returning as a party member. He's busy with other stuff during that time period.
I'm going to interpret this as a declaration that Baeloth will be returning to his "Entertainer" roots and giving us another arena mini-campaign to enjoy when BG2EE lands. Sounds good to me! With the larger level range and cap in BG2 and ToB, a sequel to Black Pits can (hopefully!) be worked into the storyline as a side quest, rather than standing alone.
Thanks for the info, @PhillipDaigle! Too bad about Baeloth, but I'm very much looking forward to seeing where Dorn's and Neera's storylines are going...
Are there any teasers you can give us about that last NPC?
Well I'm glad to hear from @PhillipDaigle that Baeloth won't be joinable, since I've already argued that he's too over-powered to continue ... but "not returning as a party member" is not the same as "not returning at all", so I suspect they're planning what I suggested earlier in this thread: Baeloth is returning as an opponent, same as Faldorn already does. Excellent, that'll be fun.
Also, however, note that @PhillipDaigle has confirmed that there's going to be only ONE more NPC whom we haven't already met. That adds considerably to the strength of my argument in this thread: it'd be a crazy waste of an opportunity to use up the only completely-new character on an Evil-only thief, instead of addressing as many gaps as possible with the same character. A new character who can offer some choice in thieving-skills to Evil parties, yes, but Evil-only and thief-only would be daft.
With only one new NPC on the way, I revert to my original proposal: a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Fighter/Thief would address more gaps than any other single character I can think of. It still might not give you Evil players the option of a pure-Evil party (but see below), but at least it'd give you an alternative thief instead of Jan, so you'd get part of what you want. And on the other hand, it'd also give Good players an alternative developable thief instead of Jan, and it'd give everyone an alternative warrior option, and it'd give Good players a dwarf option. (There'd also be a credible case for making a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Cleric/Thief instead, but I reckon the Fighter is generally a more useful fit with Thief skills - more weapons for backstabbing, etc.)
I also endorse @KidCarnival's suggestion: let this new NPC change alignment depending on a quest outcome. That way, the clamorous Evil players could actually get their specifically-Evil thief after doing the quest. Or for the rest of us, if we play the associated quest a different way, the new NPC either stays Neutral or switches to Good.
Wouldn't that be a solution which would be a useful enhancement for as many players as possible? And isn't that what Overhaul are aiming to do?
You are too late, since the twitter hints have already said the new character is evil and strongly imply they are not multiclass. At this stage in development they are already written.
Now, they could do a human thief, with 17 strength and wisdom, so they can dual to fighter or cleric. However, I really don't think that is needed. The gaping hole is for an evil thief, of which there is currenty ZERO NADA NONE AT ALL. It's not a case of ENHANCING, it's a case of FIXING.
Honestly? I think that at this point you're just quibbling. The whole point of the EE NPCs is to address existing gaps in the character pool: there were no Wild Mages before Neera, no Monks before Rasaad, and no half-orcs before Dorn. By the same token, there are no evil thieves in BG2, hence Trent Oster's and Nathan Willis' comments that BG2:EE needs an evil single-class thief.
But @shawne, there are no good-aligned single-class thieves in BG2 either. That's just as much of a lack, Good and Evil parties have both had to rely only on Jan for anything more than the basic thief skills. Both alignments would have a lot of use for a new thief!
Also, I find it interesting that you view this thief as being "denied" to Good parties (as if Good PCs can't recruit Dorn) yet you keep insisting that Jan is perfectly suited for an evil playthrough. Are incompatible alignments only an issue for Good RPs, then?
Incompatible alignments are an issue for any party: you can keep characters of opposite alignment for a while, usually long enough to complete the associated NPC-quest, but in the long run they'll usually either walk out on you or fight to the death with one of your other characters. Thus by the time you've got your final party assembled for the rest of SoA (and quite likely also for ToB, unless you're planning to recruit Sarevok), you usually need to be all Good-and-Neutral or all Evil-and-Neutral. (If Charname is Neutral and high-CHA, you might get away with keeping opposite alignments around you, but otherwise you're likely to end up in trouble.)
I wouldn't describe Jan as "perfectly" suited for an Evil playthrough, no, but he's also not perfectly suited for a Good playthrough, and he seems to me slightly more suited to Evil since his banters with some of the Good guys are pretty nasty. If Overhaul were planning loads of new NPCs, then I'd argue for including a Good single-class thief as well as an Evil single-class thief, but we always knew they wouldn't be able to include many new NPCs (and now we know there's only going to be one!), so a compromise character is the only sensible answer.
You are too late, since the twitter hints have already said the new character is evil and strongly imply they are not multiclass. At this stage in development they are already written.
Well, hints are only hints, not confirmations. However, if what you say turns out to be true when confirmed, then that'll have been a mistake and a wasted opportunity to offer something with wider appeal.
The objective is not to "offer something with wider appeal". That is what Rasaad, Dorn and Neera are for. The objective is to correct a design flaw from the original game.
Does Jan quit a good party if it reaches 20 reputation? No? Then he's perfectly suited for a Good playthrough.
This is one of the worst ways that the BG games are biased towards good over evil. If Neutral were truly NEUTRAL, then they would either be unhappy and break at high rep, or not be unhappy and not break at low rep.
The real reputations in this game are "Good", "Also Good", and "Evil".
@Gallowglass I'm not sure how this can be made more clear, but I'll try...
# of Good Characters: 7 (8 with Rasaad) Good Characters That have Thief levels: Imoen Nalia
# of Neutral Characters: 5 (6 with Neera; we don't talk about Yoshimo) Neutral Characters that have Thief levels: Jan (We still don't talk about Yoshimo)
# of Evil Characters: 3 (4 with Dorn) Evil Characters that have Thief levels: NONE
Please tell me you can see where I'm going with this. An Evil Thief NPC fills three holes in the roster that desperately need to be patched up, Evil NPCs, an Evil Thief, and a pure class Thief. That is wider appeal.
Good parties have Minsc. Evil parties have Dorn/Korgan. Neutral parties could have a female Barbarian. Maybe Uthgardt.
@Gallowglass Two Thief NPCs would be kind of an overkill, I think. I already said that Imoen can do everything, except Pick-Pocket and that can be fixed by changing Nalia's skills which are now a joke and pointless. I know that Imoen is more than enough, I have used her to the end, without any problems.
At least good parties have something. Evil parties have nothing. Jan doesn't count. An evil team and playthrough needs evil NPCs.
Why do you insist on this "wide appeal" thing? Jan is already doing what you're discribing. Fits to both good and evil parties and he's a multiclass. Why do we need *another* Jan or Yoshimo clone? (neutral multiclass thief and neutral pure thief).
Rasaad was not made for a wide-appeal. Dorn was not made for a wide-appeal. Baeloth was not made for a wide-appeal.
Does Jan quit a good party if it reaches 20 reputation? No? Then he's perfectly suited for a Good playthrough.
This is one of the worst ways that the BG games are biased towards good over evil. If Neutral were truly NEUTRAL, then they would either be unhappy and break at high rep, or not be unhappy and not break at low rep.
The real reputations in this game are "Good", "Also Good", and "Evil".
He doesn't quit, whines a lot about the party being worse than some kind of rash though.
Edit: Also considering they have very strongly hinted the new BG2EE NPC being an evil thief since last spring I'm pretty sure that is as close to confirmed as it can be without them actually openly admitting it.
However they have talked about DLCs and even a full expansion pack size releases after BG2EE is out so they could still add multiple new NPCs later if they wanted to.
@Gallowglass: You act like evil NPCs would flat out refuse to join a good party. It's not the case. If you look around on this forum, you will see many, many good-neutral parties that have Dorn, Viconia or Edwin (or more than one of them). There are roleplay reasons for mixed alignment parties and, I can't stress it enough, that is also an option for good parties. (Emphasis on "option".) It may not be 100 % convenient for the game mechanics, but it's a minor issue. What absolutely neccessary benefits does 20 rep really grant you? Better prices in stores? You swim in gold in mid-game anyway and most items are quest rewards or loot, plus the difference between 18 and 20 rep is minimal. Quest rewards are all the same as long as you are in the 10+ rep range. A good party can still use the evil thief and the only drawback is that they can't go over 18 rep, which has zero consequences. No neutral or good NPC will leave or only complain about not having 19/20 rep; they'll be just as happy with 18. Or even 13. Evil NPCs are not "off limits" for other parties.
Evil parties must deal with that, if they like it or not, it's not an option. That is the whole problem. Good parties have other options if they don't want to deal with it. Be it Imoen or Nalia or Jan. Having "rude banters" with good NPCs doesn't say a thing about what party he fits in, by the way. Kagain insults other evil NPCs, but that doesn't make him a better fit for good parties. It just makes him banter-happy.
We have Korgan and Edwin (and now Dorn) as "truly evil" NPCs - Viconia has a switch like Anomen, but unlike Anomen, she becomes less fitting for evil parties if you successfully complete her romance. Anomen is either neutral or good and it makes no difference; he'll be happy in the same parties and have the same breaking point. Viconia changes in that regard - as a "reward" for completing her quest. It makes no freaking sense. Anomen will still behave the same regarding reputation even if you intentionally fail his quest. Sarevok comes into play very late, so I can't count him in for an all evil party. Because by that, I mean I want to start and finish the game with an evil party. And look at the options when you start BG2 - you have 2 good and 2 neutral NPCs right with you (Yoshimo not "right" with you, but before you leave the first dungeon). Outside, you are pointed in the direction to find Anomen, Nalia and Aerie - and the lone Korgan as your first evil option. That's no way to start an all evil run.
@KidCarnival There's an evil path for Viconia's romance where she doesn't change alignments. There's even a special epilogue for it in ToB where the two of you become a badass supervillain couple.
But that's very late game and just an epilogue, not something that has any impact on the story/alignment. The SoA romance leads to her "redemption" and becoming neutral. (I avoid the romance because it makes no sense to me that an evil charname would redeem her and I don't want her to change to neutral.)
I got a feeling people are overlooking this, so I'm going to repeat myself. Imoen will never abandon you in BG2, no matter how murderously psychotic you become.
@Fenghoang Still, she sticks out like a sore thumb in an evil party and whines a lot. And an evil party needs evil personalities to be fun.
Otherwise, you just create a multiplayer party of six and there you go, six evil characters. No new NPCs needed.
The point is to have actual evil companions with evil personalities in an evil party, not substitutes.
Hey, I'm just saying. Some of you guys are going on like there's no way to get a thief in an extreme evil party. Good-aligned parties that take Viconia, Edwin, and/or Korgan have to put up with their whining, too. Their personalities clash with a good-aligned party, too.
I think someone mentioned it before, but I think some of the cross-alignment banters are probably some of the best in the game. Like Mazzy with Korgan, Imoen's ToB banters, Aerie with Korgan, Edwin with Minsc, etc. And let's be honest, it's not like Viconia gets along with either Edwin or Korgan. In fact, there are far more banters between the Evil and Good NPCs than in between the Evil ones.
Don't get me wrong, though. You guys are totally right on the disproportionate lack of evil NPCs.
Now, that I think about it though, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Thief NPC would be kitted with a brand new class kit like Dorn - bonus points if they're "illegal" like Dorn. =P
Hey, I'm just saying. Some of you guys are going on like there's no way to get a thief in an extreme evil party. Good-aligned parties that take Viconia, Edwin, and/or Korgan have to put up with their whining, too. Their personalities clash with a good-aligned party, too.
We're saying there is no Evil Thief, not that Evil parties can't recruit a Good/Neutral Thief. It's a fact. BG2 has no Evil Thief.
@Schneidend Precisely. There are thieves. Jan is by far the best one, probably better than Charname and most likely better than the evil thief they would probably make in BG2EE.
That's still not good enough since there's no evil one and many people make evil thief/assassin charnames or create extras in multiplayer just for that.
It is hinted that the new NPC might be a Shadowdancer, since those new kits were found. I will keep saying how Monty would be perfect for it, regardless.
Fixing the bug that Xzar/Monty aren't recruitable and die would be the easiest solution. I refuse to believe it was intentional that they can't be saved. With Baeloth not being recruitable, there is no "overshadowing" for Xzar - especially if he still became the mage/cleric counterpart to Aerie to set him apart. Monty is perfectly fine the way he is. Sure, he's no pure class thief, but he is also not the "wrong" kit and his personality is a perfect fit. (Wrong kit - some say assassin would be bad, some say shadowdancer would be bad, others like both... so a non-kitted thief is a good compromise.)
While I like the idea of a female dwarf, I don't really see how Magda is a thief. She's the store keeper for heavy weapons, which has nothing to do with thief skills. I'd rather see her as a barbarian, the one class not represented with an NPC. It would fit better with the backstory.
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But, maybe he'll get snuck into a later patch. That's never happened before.
On the topic of Evil thieves, I do agree that they desperately need one. However, I'm not a big fan of Jan (he annoys the hell out of me), so it doesn't matter what alignment I roll - I don't feel like I have a solid thief choice anywhere. For those that argue that good-aligned parties have Imoen, well she's technically the truest neutral NPC you can get, because she would literally never leave you no matter what you do (besides abandoning her of course). She's pretty mute in SoA, but she gets along pretty well with just about everyone in ToB (like Korgan for instance).
Also, I feel like good-aligned parties lack a solid backstabber character (technically there isn't one in the game period). I mean you can argue that Valygar can do that for you, but he lacks the other thieving abilities and his backstabs are mediocre at best. He's almost as half-assed in backstabbing as Nalia in thieving. His saving grace is that he's versatile, has good APR, and has solid THAC0 progression, whereas Nalia just sucks at thieving period unless you chug thieving pots on her. Admittedly thieving pots are quite abundant, but it's a hassle to do in comparison to having a REAL thief.
So if we are limited to only one new thief NPC, I'll have to side with @Gallowglass on this one. A neutral Assassin would probably be best to cover as many bases as possible (preferably Duergar female). I want a solid backstabber NPC for my good-aligned parties, too, you know. =(
Are there any teasers you can give us about that last NPC?
Also, however, note that @PhillipDaigle has confirmed that there's going to be only ONE more NPC whom we haven't already met. That adds considerably to the strength of my argument in this thread: it'd be a crazy waste of an opportunity to use up the only completely-new character on an Evil-only thief, instead of addressing as many gaps as possible with the same character. A new character who can offer some choice in thieving-skills to Evil parties, yes, but Evil-only and thief-only would be daft.
With only one new NPC on the way, I revert to my original proposal: a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Fighter/Thief would address more gaps than any other single character I can think of. It still might not give you Evil players the option of a pure-Evil party (but see below), but at least it'd give you an alternative thief instead of Jan, so you'd get part of what you want. And on the other hand, it'd also give Good players an alternative developable thief instead of Jan, and it'd give everyone an alternative warrior option, and it'd give Good players a dwarf option. (There'd also be a credible case for making a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Cleric/Thief instead, but I reckon the Fighter is generally a more useful fit with Thief skills - more weapons for backstabbing, etc.)
I also endorse @KidCarnival's suggestion: let this new NPC change alignment depending on a quest outcome. That way, the clamorous Evil players could actually get their specifically-Evil thief after doing the quest. Or for the rest of us, if we play the associated quest a different way, the new NPC either stays Neutral or switches to Good.
Wouldn't that be a solution which would be a useful enhancement for as many players as possible? And isn't that what Overhaul are aiming to do?
Now, they could do a human thief, with 17 strength and wisdom, so they can dual to fighter or cleric. However, I really don't think that is needed. The gaping hole is for an evil thief, of which there is currenty ZERO NADA NONE AT ALL. It's not a case of ENHANCING, it's a case of FIXING.
I wouldn't describe Jan as "perfectly" suited for an Evil playthrough, no, but he's also not perfectly suited for a Good playthrough, and he seems to me slightly more suited to Evil since his banters with some of the Good guys are pretty nasty. If Overhaul were planning loads of new NPCs, then I'd argue for including a Good single-class thief as well as an Evil single-class thief, but we always knew they wouldn't be able to include many new NPCs (and now we know there's only going to be one!), so a compromise character is the only sensible answer.
This is one of the worst ways that the BG games are biased towards good over evil. If Neutral were truly NEUTRAL, then they would either be unhappy and break at high rep, or not be unhappy and not break at low rep.
The real reputations in this game are "Good", "Also Good", and "Evil".
I'm not sure how this can be made more clear, but I'll try...
# of Good Characters: 7 (8 with Rasaad)
Good Characters That have Thief levels:
Imoen
Nalia
# of Neutral Characters: 5 (6 with Neera; we don't talk about Yoshimo)
Neutral Characters that have Thief levels:
Jan
(We still don't talk about Yoshimo)
# of Evil Characters: 3 (4 with Dorn)
Evil Characters that have Thief levels:
NONE
Please tell me you can see where I'm going with this. An Evil Thief NPC fills three holes in the roster that desperately need to be patched up, Evil NPCs, an Evil Thief, and a pure class Thief. That is wider appeal.
Very true. I would also like a female human/half-orc chaotic neutral barbarian to counter the fact that ALL female romance options are (half) elves and casters.
Think Shar-Teel. Or this:http://rotgrub.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/pathfinder-amiri.jpg
Good parties have Minsc. Evil parties have Dorn/Korgan. Neutral parties could have a female Barbarian. Maybe Uthgardt.
@Gallowglass
Two Thief NPCs would be kind of an overkill, I think. I already said that Imoen can do everything, except Pick-Pocket and that can be fixed by changing Nalia's skills which are now a joke and pointless.
I know that Imoen is more than enough, I have used her to the end, without any problems.
At least good parties have something. Evil parties have nothing. Jan doesn't count.
An evil team and playthrough needs evil NPCs.
Why do you insist on this "wide appeal" thing? Jan is already doing what you're discribing. Fits to both good and evil parties and he's a multiclass.
Why do we need *another* Jan or Yoshimo clone? (neutral multiclass thief and neutral pure thief).
Rasaad was not made for a wide-appeal. Dorn was not made for a wide-appeal. Baeloth was not made for a wide-appeal.
Edit: Also considering they have very strongly hinted the new BG2EE NPC being an evil thief since last spring I'm pretty sure that is as close to confirmed as it can be without them actually openly admitting it.
However they have talked about DLCs and even a full expansion pack size releases after BG2EE is out so they could still add multiple new NPCs later if they wanted to.
What absolutely neccessary benefits does 20 rep really grant you? Better prices in stores? You swim in gold in mid-game anyway and most items are quest rewards or loot, plus the difference between 18 and 20 rep is minimal. Quest rewards are all the same as long as you are in the 10+ rep range.
A good party can still use the evil thief and the only drawback is that they can't go over 18 rep, which has zero consequences. No neutral or good NPC will leave or only complain about not having 19/20 rep; they'll be just as happy with 18. Or even 13. Evil NPCs are not "off limits" for other parties.
Evil parties must deal with that, if they like it or not, it's not an option. That is the whole problem. Good parties have other options if they don't want to deal with it. Be it Imoen or Nalia or Jan. Having "rude banters" with good NPCs doesn't say a thing about what party he fits in, by the way. Kagain insults other evil NPCs, but that doesn't make him a better fit for good parties. It just makes him banter-happy.
We have Korgan and Edwin (and now Dorn) as "truly evil" NPCs - Viconia has a switch like Anomen, but unlike Anomen, she becomes less fitting for evil parties if you successfully complete her romance. Anomen is either neutral or good and it makes no difference; he'll be happy in the same parties and have the same breaking point. Viconia changes in that regard - as a "reward" for completing her quest. It makes no freaking sense. Anomen will still behave the same regarding reputation even if you intentionally fail his quest. Sarevok comes into play very late, so I can't count him in for an all evil party. Because by that, I mean I want to start and finish the game with an evil party.
And look at the options when you start BG2 - you have 2 good and 2 neutral NPCs right with you (Yoshimo not "right" with you, but before you leave the first dungeon). Outside, you are pointed in the direction to find Anomen, Nalia and Aerie - and the lone Korgan as your first evil option. That's no way to start an all evil run.
There's an evil path for Viconia's romance where she doesn't change alignments. There's even a special epilogue for it in ToB where the two of you become a badass supervillain couple.
EDIT: Or, wait...was that an Ascension thing?
Still, she sticks out like a sore thumb in an evil party and whines a lot. And an evil party needs evil personalities to be fun.
Otherwise, you just create a multiplayer party of six and there you go, six evil characters. No new NPCs needed.
The point is to have actual evil companions with evil personalities in an evil party, not substitutes.
I think someone mentioned it before, but I think some of the cross-alignment banters are probably some of the best in the game. Like Mazzy with Korgan, Imoen's ToB banters, Aerie with Korgan, Edwin with Minsc, etc. And let's be honest, it's not like Viconia gets along with either Edwin or Korgan. In fact, there are far more banters between the Evil and Good NPCs than in between the Evil ones.
Don't get me wrong, though. You guys are totally right on the disproportionate lack of evil NPCs.
Now, that I think about it though, I wouldn't be surprised if the new Thief NPC would be kitted with a brand new class kit like Dorn - bonus points if they're "illegal" like Dorn. =P
Precisely.
There are thieves. Jan is by far the best one, probably better than Charname and most likely better than the evil thief they would probably make in BG2EE.
That's still not good enough since there's no evil one and many people make evil thief/assassin charnames or create extras in multiplayer just for that.
It is hinted that the new NPC might be a Shadowdancer, since those new kits were found.
I will keep saying how Monty would be perfect for it, regardless.
I like @Fardragon's idea for Magda, with a personal quest dealing with Baeloth much better. That'd be awesome.
While I like the idea of a female dwarf, I don't really see how Magda is a thief. She's the store keeper for heavy weapons, which has nothing to do with thief skills. I'd rather see her as a barbarian, the one class not represented with an NPC. It would fit better with the backstory.
Xzar and Monty making a return would indeed be awesome.
Still, Magda just sells the heavy weapons. She doesn't necessarily favor them. Also, sneaking around comes naturally to duergar.