Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

The XP Cap: A Flaw in the Game's Design

13»

Comments

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @the_spyder: You know, it's rather unwise of you to cast aspersions on other people in a forum where all posts are visible - you and @subtledoctor were the first to make personal attacks (ie: characterizing me as "moaning about it"), so accusing me of trolling is, frankly, hilarious.

  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    @shawne Trying to get back on track... Have you decided to complete the quests available in Baldur's Gate? Or are you heading straight to Saveoursock and giving him a black eye?

  • OurQuestIsVainOurQuestIsVain Member Posts: 201

    Yeah, how dare people disagree with the OP. They're just so mean.

    But seriously, if you think there's a problem with the game, and this is the reaction you get, chances no one is going to change anything.

    Go visit the mods forum.

    To raise the XP cap, you have to download three files and put them in your override folder. It's not exactly rocket science.

    In regards to the XP cap, for me personally, I find it makes BG more enjoyable but it also makes exporting to BG2 not as fun, obviously starting the game with a way OP char isn't going to be fun or I guess I should say challenging...I'm sure some people enjoy playing games with god mode on but that has never been my cup of tea. In regards to people being "just so mean." it isn't about them disagreeing with anything, it is about them calling the OP a troll and whining or you saying installing an XP remover is "not exactly rocket science." implying that we are idiots for doing nothing more than bringing up a very valid point. Yes, installing an XP remover is exceedingly simple, No, nobody ever said that it was hard to do or even implied that they didn't know how to do it. Yes I realize this is the internet and there are going to be people that can't argue a point without resulting to name calling and insult hurling, I just thought the majority of people who visit these forums were better than that and it shocked me to see that there were at least a few people here who aren't.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,067
    That's why I simply don't start the TotSC content till becoming wanted because of the events in Candlekeep.

    There're many powerful items in Durlag's Tower and Werewolve's Island so that having them all before exploring the city of BG will obviously make it less fun. It's an additional content and it was designed to expand the joy of adventuring after the city of BG is extensively explored up and down, not before.

    Of course in BG:EE there's a possibility to enter the TotSC quests even before becoming well-known in the city of BG and it leads to the right of everyone to do so.

    But you must not forget that you carry consequences for your actions. Every action leads to your perception of it: does the result pleasure you depends on your feelings.

    So if you decide to get the powerful items from the TotSC content first and then you find the quests in the city of BG less interesting and even useless there's no one to blame than yourself. The XP Cap can't be used as an excuse or interpreted as a flaw in this situation.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited March 2013
    Anduin said:

    @shawne Trying to get back on track... Have you decided to complete the quests available in Baldur's Gate? Or are you heading straight to Saveoursock and giving him a black eye?

    Honestly? I just don't see any point in doing the BG quests. I'm going to pick up the few pieces of equipment I can actually use (the Helm of Balduran, Ramazith's amulet, etc.) and do Scar's missions so I can get to Duke Eltan and chapter 6.

    Anduin
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    @shawne

    Did you see my posts on how XP really works? It will carry over to BG2EE, you'll just have to download the new EE Shadow Keeper to check how much you're earning after the cap.

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    Also, what about completing quests just because you enjoy the game? That may not be everyone's cup of tea but there is such a thing as an RPG without experience points you know!

    DebaserCalmarAnduin
  • MessiMessi Member Posts: 738
    What the hell is the point of this thread? If you want to remove the XP cap you can do it extremely easily.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Perhaps the actual design flaw is allowing access to the TotSC areas before going into BG city.

    IIRC, in the original game you couldn't get into TotSC until Chapter 5. I suppose that still allowed the possibility of going straight to Ulgoth's Beard instead of BG city as soon as Chapter 5 began, but I'm sure I never went there so soon myself.

    If the TotSC areas were locked until some suitable point in Chapter 5, then @shawne wouldn't have capped out quite so soon. That might have made his current run a more satisfying experience, perhaps?

    It ought to be easy to introduce such a mechanism. One logical way would be that, when Alatos sends you to Oberan's estate to obtain some items from Shandalar's daughters, the daughters could quite plausibly also be holding a letter from Shandalar inviting them to visit him in Ulgoth's Beard after completing their business in BG city. Reading his letter would then be a neat trigger for revealing Ulgoth's Beard on your map, and the content of the letter could also give you a reason to investigate there. (For example, Shandalar might write "While you're there in the big city, keep your eyes open for some experienced adventurers, I need some assistance with a rather difficult task.")

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @Debaser: That doesn't solve the issue, though. Most RPGs have a point where your characters reach the apex of their development and aren't going to go any further. But in this particular instance, my party has hit that point before arguably the largest and most complex area in the game. The fact that BG:EE allows this to happen - without cheating, without sequence-breaking (all arguments of "Oh, you should've gone to Ulgoth's Beard in chapter 6!" are invalid for the simple reason that the game lets you go there whenever you want; it's not like you have to use the console to reach it after Cloakwood) - is somewhat problematic. @ryuken87 says it should be about "enjoying the game", but part of enjoying the game is the reward system that's built into practically anything you do. Without that, I might as well be doing pointless fetch quests to waste time, and BG isn't - and shouldn't be - that kind of game.

    Iecerint
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Perhaps the actual design flaw is allowing access to the TotSC areas before going into BG city.

    IIRC, in the original game you couldn't get into TotSC until Chapter 5. I suppose that still allowed the possibility of going straight to Ulgoth's Beard instead of BG city as soon as Chapter 5 began, but I'm sure I never went there so soon myself.

    If the TotSC areas were locked until some suitable point in Chapter 5, then @shawne wouldn't have capped out quite so soon. That might have made his current run a more satisfying experience, perhaps?

    It ought to be easy to introduce such a mechanism. One logical way would be that, when Alatos sends you to Oberan's estate to obtain some items from Shandalar's daughters, the daughters could quite plausibly also be holding a letter from Shandalar inviting them to visit him in Ulgoth's Beard after completing their business in BG city. Reading his letter would then be a neat trigger for revealing Ulgoth's Beard on your map, and the content of the letter could also give you a reason to investigate there. (For example, Shandalar might write "While you're there in the big city, keep your eyes open for some experienced adventurers, I need some assistance with a rather difficult task.")

    You're definitely onto something here: my PC was level 6 after Cloakwood, and level 9 after completing TotSC. In fairness, that made those areas genuinely challenging, but if I'd hit the level cap by clearing out BG first, I'd still have an incentive to go to Ulgoth's Beard afterwards: the best equipment in the game is at Durlag's Tower and Werewolf Island. XP wouldn't matter then, because I'd still receive tangible rewards for playing through that content.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    As has been pointed out, the "issue" clearly has more to do with the way you are playing than with the way the game is designed, and it is one you could easily rectify buy using an XP cap remover. So what is your problem?

    When RPGs fist became popular in the early 80's, many (most?) had NO XP, NO LEVELS, and very limited character advancement. Traveller, Runequest, Call of Cuthulu, FASA Star TREK, WEG Star Wars - none of these had xp or levels. So the idea that RPGs must have character advancement is a nonsense, owing more to dungeon crawl hack and slash computer games than genuine role playing games.

  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    that's funny i really struggled to hit the cap in my last playthrough as a druid. i wanted ironskins for the final battle and i had to go over all the maps again to mop up some extra bits i hadn't done the first time, because i didn't think they were RP suitable

    Fardragon
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Well sure, @mjs, if you skip chunks on roleplaying grounds, then that might happen - and I think it's reasonable that if you aren't playing the whole of the game then you might not necessarily get the whole of the XP. But if you complete everything fully, then you'll always cap out before the end, usually quite a while before the end, and sometimes (like @shawne) a ridiculously long way before the end.

    atcDave
  • DebaserDebaser Member Posts: 669
    edited March 2013
    shawne said:

    @Debaser: That doesn't solve the issue, though. Most RPGs have a point where your characters reach the apex of their development and aren't going to go any further. But in this particular instance, my party has hit that point before arguably the largest and most complex area in the game. The fact that BG:EE allows this to happen - without cheating, without sequence-breaking (all arguments of "Oh, you should've gone to Ulgoth's Beard in chapter 6!" are invalid for the simple reason that the game lets you go there whenever you want; it's not like you have to use the console to reach it after Cloakwood) - is somewhat problematic. @ryuken87 says it should be about "enjoying the game", but part of enjoying the game is the reward system that's built into practically anything you do. Without that, I might as well be doing pointless fetch quests to waste time, and BG isn't - and shouldn't be - that kind of game.

    @shawne

    I get it from what you want as a player...I would download the Simple EXP cap remover as some have suggested, the game will change mechanically and you'll be able to gain about 1 more level before it's all said and done without the drag of being capped out. But it's not going to be a massive power gain.

    The good news is if you download the mod, the EXP you have already gained from your play-through will be applied. (You won't miss a beat on your game), so you can keep going as a completionist and you won't have missed out on any EXP. Making any quests you did after capping more tangible in their rewards.

    Anduinthe_spyderatcDave
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017

    Well sure, @mjs, if you skip chunks on roleplaying grounds, then that might happen - and I think it's reasonable that if you aren't playing the whole of the game then you might not necessarily get the whole of the XP. But if you complete everything fully, then you'll always cap out before the end, usually quite a while before the end, and sometimes (like @shawne) a ridiculously long way before the end.

    I really don't think the issue is "When" someone hits the cap. I could be wrong on that fact, but the simple solution is to apply the Mod and be done with it.

    Some purists have to have a 'Story' reason to go to each and every map. Others simply like to adventure and explore. Still others are completionists and HAVE to finish every single map and every single quest, regardless of order or 'Story' reason. The GREAT thing about BG is that all of these can enjoy the game.

    My personal opinion is that (after having removed the cap once), it doesn't largely make a difference if you do have 161K or 200K. I recognize that the difficulty of the final battle was staged so that you 'should be' at or close to the cap. However, going over it doesn't significantly ruin anything (unless you go way off the ranch and crank your character up to 27th level and then claim that Drizzt is too weak). What's more, you can face it well under that cap and potentially win.

    My whole issue has been with the choice of "Game Design Flaw" in the thread title and the generally aggressive tone of the opening post. If the OP had started off with "I think the XP cap should be removed. what do you guys think?" as their thread title and gone on to propose a discussion rather than a witch hunt, they would have gotten a whole different thread and tone from responders. I also think that, having gotten negative feedback, resorting to calling all responders trolls and Kneejerks only made it worse, even if some of them (us?) may have deserved it.

    atcDave
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 9,530
    edited March 2013
    I've just read this whole thread so allow me to make two comments, the first as a player, the second as a moderator.

    As a player it is my experience that removing the XP Cap is not a problem unless you're playing with many huge mods, such as DSotSC, as the extra XP may put you well over 4 or 5 levels above what was originally intended. If you play the game without these big mods you'll be barely above the normal cap and maybe one level above at the end of the game and that really doesn't make the final fight that much easier.

    As a moderator, I'd like to remind everyone about the forum rules on name calling and personal attacks. I came quite close to closing this thread, but as things seem to have calmed down, I won't, at least as long as this remains a civil discussion about removing or changing the XP Cap or why you see/don't see the cap as a flaw in the original game design.

    Post edited by mlnevese on
    DebaserAnduinIecerintBigfish
  • agradineagradine Member Posts: 13
    One general rule of the Internet that's really easy to forget is that tone is very very tricky to convey and even trickier to read in a purely written format. It's usually the best policy to ignore tone and just respond directly to the content of the post.

    I've never used an exp cap remover, having never personally hit the cap in the first game. Still, I can definitely see the appeal. RPGs are such a great genre (and BG such a great example of the genre) because they can appeal to so many different styles of gameplay. Some people love to roleplay. Some love to powergame. Some just love to fill bars. Baldur's Gate fulfills many of these niches, and where the original release lagged behind, the excellent modding community has picked up the slack.

    XP cap removers for some, miniature American flags for others.

    Debaser
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742

    Well sure, @mjs, if you skip chunks on roleplaying grounds, then that might happen - and I think it's reasonable that if you aren't playing the whole of the game then you might not necessarily get the whole of the XP. But if you complete everything fully, then you'll always cap out before the end, usually quite a while before the end, and sometimes (like @shawne) a ridiculously long way before the end.

    wholeheartedly agree, my previous playthrough as a cleric, doing EVERYTHING saw me cap quite early. in this regard my RPing worked for me, as charname only accepted "faith" NPCs (& imoen, she is after all your oldest friend), so i didn't have a full party for long periods of the game

  • bill_zagoudisbill_zagoudis Member Posts: 207
    edited March 2013
    that is to avoid making the final battles trivial because you killed too many gnolls before,it's not really a flaw,it just could be better.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    that is to avoid making the final battles trivial because you killed too many gnolls before,it's not really a flaw,it just could be better.

    To "make it better", you would probably need to reduce XP gained for lower level kills and quests. However, that is not in accordance with 2nd edition rules. BG always has to walk a fine line between being a computer game and a faithful emulation of the PnP game.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 367
    I think the OP has a legitimate point, and I think it's ridiculous for being to jump down his throat for saying the game is "flawed." Of course BG has flaws, pointing that out is not outrageous. Some people need to calm themselves.

    I would argue XP-cap remover was probably the most frequently applied mod to the original BG. I think there's nothing wrong with wanting some option or some raising of the XP cap in there. Especially since the TotSC quests provide enormous levels of XP AND still provide challenges to chars with XP north of 161000.

    As people have pointed out, a 6-person party will not get super high levels even with the cap removed.

    I personally think an XP cap option in the game options would be nice--161000, 250000, or no cap. I would prefer this over having to download a mod.

    Iecerint
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    I think people were riled more by the tone than the issue from the original poster.

    I would love to see a configuration screen like some games have, Monopoly comes to mind, where features and common house rules can be turned on or off at the start of each of game. And a selectable XP cap seems like an excellent starting point.

    IecerintDebasermlnevese
Sign In or Register to comment.