@SionIV - Well yes, those weapons will have a better back stab because they deal more damage. Just like in real life. If you stab/slash at somebody in the back with a longsword, it will do much more damage than a knife.
But since when do we need that much damage? On many forums for as long as I can remember, people have thrown about back stab damage - especially when using the staff of striking - to say which are better for rogues to use.
I will say it again - Never once in any of my playthroughs have I ever *needed* that much damage with a backstab to take someone out. A dagger was perfectly fine for me to use all the way to the end of ToB. Any more damage and you have overkill - often to an extreme.
The other point I had, was that daggers are versatile. Most classes can use them. They can be ranged and some even have more damage than a standard dagger. +1 proficiency point as a thief gets you a ranged weapon, a melee weapon and a weapon that acts like a short sword. proficiency points aren't easy to come by as a thief.
The dagger is not supposed to be the most powerful weapon around. It is supposed to be quick, versatile, and easily concealed. There is not a single fact in PnP or real life which indicate a dagger is actually better at backstabbing than say.. a short sword. Thieves use them because thieves are not supposed to be great warriors. They use them because they are easy to use and easily concealed.
Doesn't piercing damage work better than slashing in most cases also?
1.) Using a dagger to slit someones throat or putting it through their kidney will deal alot more damage than a club to the face.
2.) You need that damage on low level and especially in BG1. And if you can pick between a dagger or something better ofcourse you'll take something better, which is the reason almost no one plays with daggers except roleplay.
3.) As i mentioned earlier why would you as a normal BG player pick something that is worse? If you have a Longsword +3 why would you pick a longsword +1? Same with a dagger +2 or a quarter staff +3 (BG1). And why would i put gear on my mage when i can go through the whole game naked?
4.) Daggers are versatile, i'll agree with this. But the staff is the weapon everyone in the game can use. How come the staff is so much better than the dagger, also you can find staffs with the same weapon speed? Everyone in the whole game is better using a staff than a dagger.
Mage? Staff Rogue? Staff
The staff even has longer range than the dagger, so you can stand behind in safety and use it.
@Edvin - There is a dagger already in the game that does 1d6 damage. There are daggers in BG2 that do 2d4 damage. There is already a good deal of variety in place.
@SionIV - I can guarantee you that bashing somebodies skull in from behind with a war club or a quarterstaff could and will do more damage than a dagger. The classic medieval term "Brained" comes to mind.
Regardless of roleplay if I choose a thief, I always take dagger first. Later I usually take longsword. Loads of variety. Ranged, melee etc.
Also, stabbing someone in the kidney only deals more damage if you know where their kidney is. That's why backstabbing is a thief special ability and not a universal mechanic.
1.) A knife is more DEADLY than a club. And as a knife doesn't have a instant kill feature in these games it should have equal damage.
2.) Slitting someones throat is much more deadly than hitting them in the back of their head. Not to mention you could have a helm on you.
3.) We're talking about a rogue / assassin here, someone that is atleast decently skilled. A knife in the hands of a skilled person is much more deadly than a club.
@SionIV - Right I think I see where the problem is now. After thinking about it I now agree, you are quite right. Staves and clubs should not do more back stab damage than a dagger. But neither do I think daggers need to be rebalanced.
The REAL culprit here is those pesky staves and clubs! This should actually be a topic in rebalancing these weapons.
What do you think @Dee ? Remove Backstabbing from these weapons? make them non-usable by a rogue? people have been milking the incredibly broken and overpowered damage the staff of striking gives since ToTSC originally came out. I hear nothing but complaints everywhere about this weapon. it should not be able to backstab as this weapon simply put: Has no backstabby end to poke with.
Is it possible to remove backstab from Bludgeoning weapons? It's been way too long for me but what does PnP say about bludgeoning damage and backstabbing?
Surely a pointy end is a requirement for this skill.
@SionIV - Right I think I see where the problem is now. After thinking about it I now agree, you are quite right. Staves and clubs should not do more back stab damage than a dagger. But neither do I think daggers need to be rebalanced.
The REAL culprit here is those pesky staves and clubs! This should actually be a topic in rebalancing these weapons.
What do you think @Dee ? Remove Backstabbing from these weapons? make them non-usable by a rogue? people have been milking the incredibly broken and overpowered damage the staff of striking gives since ToTSC originally came out. I hear nothing but complaints everywhere about this weapon. it should not be able to backstab as this weapon simply put: Has no backstabby end to poke with.
Is it possible to remove backstab from Bludgeoning weapons? It's been way too long for me but what does PnP say about bludgeoning damage and backstabbing?
Surely a pointy end is a requirement for this skill.
Actually that would have been great. I don't think we'll ever get that change as it would remove most of the best weapons a rogue could use for backstabbing. But i'm all for only letting daggers backstab. It's the reason i wanted to add the +1 backstab modifier to daggers, to make them better at it. You could also make everything else worse at it.
@SionIV - See this is where I disagree. i find daggers perfectly fine to backstab with. It is staves and blunt weapons that are broken. They shouldn't be the best weapons for a rogue. If you make them unusable for a rogue, that would leave just daggers and shortsword and longsword.
Did you know the original PnP version of the Shortsword of Backstabbing was actually supposed to add an extra +1 backstab modifier? I wonder why it was never implimented into BG....
There's significant disagreement in this thread about whether rebalancing the base weapon is a good idea, which to me says this idea makes more sense as a mod (and since it's totally possible to do with mods, that's an acceptable solution).
As I see it, daggers don't need to be "upgraded"; I'd much rather see a greater variety in the daggers that are available.
For instance, you could have a dagger that adds a backstab bonus, a dagger that reduces the off-hand attack penalties, and a dagger that grants an additional attack per round, and that would make daggers a more appealing option because there would be more options for different characters.
But if you completely rebalance the way that daggers function in general, you have to look at all the places in the game where that might have an impact.
Or maybe any magical throwin dagger at all? That would be neat.
Technically, according to PnP, ANY weapon a thief can wield proficiently can be used to backstab (PnP assassin can be proficient in any weapon), including bastard swords, 2hded swords, and halbards, in the case of a F/T. BG just limits it to thief only weapons, since it also multiples more stuff then it's supposed to (just supposed to multiple base weapon damage, nothing else....and doesn't really multiply per say...it just makes you roll your weapon damage X amount of times) and the ease at which you can BS (you normally only get off a maximum of 1 per encounter, barring special circumstances. It's why PnP thieves are taken exclusively for scouting, trap finding, and lock-popping..since they're useless in most combat situations..unless they accidentally hit something a bow or darts). Also, minimum damage is MUCH more important then maximum when dealing with backstabs...since weapons with high maxiums are very inconsistant).
Blunt weapons actually deal MORE internal damage then most piercing weapons do, unless they have a VERY large blade (hence why short swords are preferred over daggers unless concealment is a big issue). They pierce the organ causing internal bleeding and might sever arteries or the like but cause very small wounds, but a blunt strike to the lower back of the head can result in immediate shock and unconsciousness (the same principle a Sap works on actually, except that you're striking up and in, rather then down and to the side, and using a much more narrow implement, rather then a broadslap that spreads the force over the entire back of the skull, since you're TRYING to turn their brain into jello, instead of just render them unconscious), especially that area of the skull, since the most import parts of the brain are in the lower back portion of the skull, and can result in either instant death or becoming brain dead as a result. Blunt strikes to the spine or kidney areas can also cause massive nervous system paralysis or death, or bad internal bleeding, shock and a horribly agonizingly slow and painful death). Technically, a similar strike with a dagger or shortsword would work just as well, but the blunt version will work regardless of any armor or neck protectors they might be wearing.
It's why blunt is better vs heavy armor. piercing or cutting has to penetrate to cause damage (there's some blunt force as well, but they aren't designed with maximizing that force in mind)...blunt ignores the armor and attacks the insides directly due to a more focus strike, that the force of not only penetrates deeper and causes internal damage, it crushes the armor making it difficult to move.
Daggers have the fastest base attack speed (1)....this means you're more likely to get off the backstab before the target can move away. Most other weapons are in 5-7 base range, with only a handful below that (clubs and QS basically (3), scimitars at 4)).
Even halberds and 2hd swords eventually hit 0 speed, depending on proficiencies, specialization, class bonuses, and enhancement level. Once magic comes into play, that's the end of innate balance, because magic is inherently imbalanced in nature, due to screwing with natural laws.
Have anyone considered adding a weapon fighting style specifically for daggers?
The way I see it, there is some features we want souly for rogue while we still want a few other features available for other dagger wielding classes.
In my opinion, all rogues start with proficiency in this style (can't come up with a proper name that doesn't sound like it's your ordinary dagger proficiency slot). While all other classes have the option to gain proficiency. Specialization and Mastery may be obtained only by rogues (in which lies your added backstab bonus or whatever you want specifically to be available to rogues in the moment of backstabbery) I would also argue that this style can be used in conjunction to other weapon styles that apply... but as a rogue, you'll be pressed to add a verity of weapons when you want to invest so much into daggers. A fighter/thief would make the most out of it...
I agree that clubs and quarterstaves shouldn't be able to be used for backstabs, just by the very nature of the weapons they are. Pointy weapons are better at backstabbing than blunt ones (though beating someone over the head from behind is definitely another way to kill someone quickly- warhammers and maces were specifically designed to destroy a helm- but I think players would complain if a lucky war hammer/club/mace hit instakilled their character- remember that what your character can do to others can also be done to you and/or the characters in your party, so having the same balance that a helm protects from all critical hits is good).
However, I don't know of any dagger that is going to do 3d6 damage to colossal creatures. In 2e, Daggers do 1d4 to smaller than man-sized or man-sized creatures, and 1d3 to larger than man-sized creatures. Look at the size of a dagger blade as for WHY this is so. If you stab a colossal creature with a dagger, it's like an ant stabbing a human with a sewing needle. Oh it will hurt, sure, but do that much damage? Unless you are focusing on an eye, it's not going to be that damaging. And colossal creatures live up to their name. You aren't going to be likely to even get NEAR something that can be damaged so easily.
Now, I haven't used the Dagger of Venom in the game, but I'd like it to be something only used by evil characters or creatures- why? Because poison use is an evil act in AD&D 2e. Either that, or it should impact your reputation if you use it- in a negative fashion. Again, people are not going to trust someone who goes around poisoning people. At the very least, you should have to refill it. The original Dagger of Venom only had enough poison for three hits at a time. It wasn't a magical font of never ending poison. Which means finding people who can sell you poison... which shouldn't be easy, either.
Daggers damage according to D&D rules ( same for throwing daggers )
Size - Damage Small - 1d3 Medium - 1d4 Large - 1d6 Huge - 1d8 Gargantuan - 2d6 Colossal - 3d6
This is the 3.5 system and it's actually the other way around. The damage changes according to the scaled size of the WEAPON, not the target. So, a Fire Giant's two-handed sword would be considered a huge weapon (two sizes above medium) and would give 4d6 damage (as opposed to 1d12 for a normal version). A medium (normal) sized two-handed sword, however, would be wielded by a Fire Giant as a dagger but have the same damage as the two-handed sword. Remember "Joril's Dagger" from the bonus merchant at the Copper Coronet in BG2? It was supposedly the dagger of the dead Frost Giant from IWD, but is treated as a two-handed sword for human use.
Going back to your table, a huge dagger would cause 1d8 damage, whereas it would be wielded as a longsword by a human for the same damage.
I find the dagger+2 a good weapon for my mage, when he has to enter and exit melee in a blink to avoid getting beaten. Speed factor is really helpful, as well as +2 to hit. Like, when my tanks are battling a tough foe, and the tough foe is busy with them, my mage, out of spells, draws his dagger and quickly attacks from the back of the tough foe, the attack roll comes as soon as my mage does his first swinging attack animation (hence the attack speed!) and whether he misses or hits, I immediately make him run away to avoid reteliation from the tough foe. Then my mage runs in circles until his next round begins, and then he can wade into melee quickly and escape quickly again, thanks to the amazing speed of dagger.
In this respect, namely speed and hit-run tactics, I find dagger to be more useful than a staff for a mage. Another character can use a staff with two handed weapon style to better effect, since thw style gives good speed and damage bonuses. But a mage can't learn such combat tricks, and as such dagger is his best bet for fast attacks.
And it is a novelty, while a magical staff suits the image of a powerful mage better, back in 1e rules, a magic-user could only equip and use a dagger. And all mages used to hide a dagger in their sleeves for desperate times..it gives good flavour to the game if I let my mage to use a dagger in sticky situations. ^^
You know, recently I have been using the 'Rogue Rebalancing' mod suggested to me by @CamDawg - I have to say this is probably one of the most thorough and detailed mods out there that give rogues their PnP status. All thieves get 3* for dual wielding, Assassins start off at 3x Backstab (in my opinion this is a MUST for assassins in BG1) and swashbucklers get fighter thac0 progression.
I feel this mod itself could be a response to issues people have with the thief/bard. I'll make a new topic/poll on the subject and see how people feel about applying this mod to BG:EE.
@Edvin - I don't know if you have tried it but I definitely feel it might be worth a shot. You will thoroughly enjoy it.
I'd actually like to toss on another mod recommendation, especially in light of all the discussion of backstabbing multipliers.
Ding0's Tweak Pack has a component that I think is the most sensible implementation of weapons suitable for backstab. Only daggers and short swords get the full backstab multiplier; other weapons can still be used to backstab but at a reduced efficiency. Long swords can backstab at one less the regular multiple (so a thief with quintuple damage only gets triple with a long sword) all the way to a massive -5 with halberds. The full table of penalties by weapon type are in the readme.
It forces a tradeoff between balancing your general combat weapon vs. being able to backstab.
I'd actually like to toss on another mod recommendation, especially in light of all the discussion of backstabbing multipliers.
Ding0's Tweak Pack has a component that I think is the most sensible implementation of weapons suitable for backstab. Only daggers and short swords get the full backstab multiplier; other weapons can still be used to backstab but at a reduced efficiency. Long swords can backstab at one less the regular multiple (so a thief with quintuple damage only gets triple with a long sword) all the way to a massive -5 with halberds. The full table of penalties by weapon type are in the readme.
It forces a tradeoff between balancing your general combat weapon vs. being able to backstab.
Well, that changes are conceptually reasonable, but consequently it just makes Thieves to be much worse than their current status. Thieves are already useless enough in combat except F/T and F/T/M. The only reason players take at least one Thief is to detect and remove traps.
@Hoo - I 100% disagree with the idea that thieves are useless.
My Assassin deals ridiculous damage with daggers. Don't let me get started on poison. You know that mage that nukes your entire party with fireballs? Dead before the battle begins.
My bounty hunter can murder even the most powerful fighters with traps (with Rogue Rebalancing, incapacitates foes with ease). You know those swarms of annoying enemies that come out of nowhere and overwhelm your party? Dead before the battle begins.
My swashbuckler is pretty much a dual wielding fighter with better tanking capabilities AND with the benefits of finding traps and opening locks. Full plate? pah. Shields? BAH.
Thieves are one of the only classes that can solo the game whilst getting the most out of it.
I struggle to play any other class these days (perhaps mages). 'Point and click' fighters just don't do anything for me.
@EntropyXII And what pure-class thieves can do well, expect for traps and locks? Before you answer, please, don't say "dual-class", because it's never an option for me.
In PnP only the vanilla thief get the ability to cast spells from scrolls at lvl 10. BG doesn't have this implemented currently (they really should though at some point). (50% base chance of failure, +5% per spell level, -5% at 14-15 int, -10% at 16-17 int, -15% at 18-19 int, -20% at 20+ int).
That's really their biggest advantage over their kits in PnP (aside from generally getting 60 skill points at creation, while all the kits get 40, and most of the kits only get 20 points per level instead of 25 or suffer base penalties to certain skills) (none of the kits learn to use scrolls, and as a result can never get Use Any item (which just removes failure chance for scrolls up to 6th level, halves the base penalty for 7-9, and allows them to use wands, and NOTHING ELSE)).
The Thief is a generic utility guy, almost like a bard, but without their broad access to NCP pools and innate spell casting and focus on social situations, relying instead on limited resources and a high failure chance to add spell casting, but also gaining non-spell based methods for opening locks and removing traps, a job which they excel at, and can't be readily replaced. (backstab is more of an afterthought in PnP because it's EXTREMELY difficult to land a backstab, and you generally only get 1 per encounter...or less, if anyone spots your thief moving in before you can land a strike since once they call out a warning, you can never backstab that encounter due to all the enemies being on guard).
@ZelgadisGW - what @ZanathKariashi said. On a side note I never dual-class and I never play the 'pure' classes unless I am playing vanilla BG.
Remember: Pure thieves can also backstab with reckless abandon. I played one as my main character all the way through BG back before I used mods of BG:EE. I still killed most things with backstab. A thief still made battles with mages extremely easy, scouting and backstabbing with impunity.
With the introduction of EE and mods, pure thieves can also set traps - albeit not as well as the bounty hunter, but still very useful.
Pure thieves also get a very very high level of thief skills to use. So you have a thief, who can backstab very well, set traps decently and provide all the utility a party needs.
I find thieves to be extremely useful throughout BG and BG2, pure or with kits. They are a necessity for me, not just for the utility, but because of their killing capabilities - they made certain battles very very easy.
At current, vanilla thieves are a bit lack-luster. Adding scroll use at 10 would go a long away for helping them not be overshadowed by their kits. A kit that is blatantly more powerful then original, in all circumstances (*cough*Berserker*cough*Blade*cough*Any Cleric kit*Cough*Most BG kits in general*cough*), is a broken kit that needs to be rebalanced. Kits are supposed to have roughly the same level power, just a slightly different flavor of play-style that has a roughly equal penalty for any strong bonuses it gives.
Only the Assassin is really worse off, due to being penalized more then they should and getting a worthless bonus in compensation (unless you're soloing or duoing, by the time you get x6 or above BS, there's hardly any enemies worth using it on or they're immune). (I'd cap them at x5 BS (the PnP assassin is a poison specialist, not a backstabber, because backstab is nearly worthless in PnP due to the difficulty in actually pulling one off), bump them up to 20 skill points and otherwise leave the class alone...it's fairly balanced if it just has poison use and +1 hit/damage. (made a more in depth suggestion for changes to the assassin over in the Add RRB feature request).
The BH is only about 2 levels behind in skill growth and get double the traps per day, and the swashbuckler is given ample compensation for the lack of backstab, trading off early offensive power, for mid-late game ridiculous offensive AND defensive potential (brokenly so, I might add).
Some good conversation here, I don't have time for a detailed response though here are my 2 coppers.
First I want to echo the request for more/interesting daggers (particularly a throwing dagger that returns to the user for BG1:EE).
I like the idea of backstab modifiers, but I tend towards mods for such broad mechanics changes that aren't bug fixes or new content.
Adding some magic daggers with personality would go quite a way in making them more viable. After all it's the unique item that is memorable and interesting, not the blanket buff of an item type
This is a little late, but I'm picking up BG:EE again so I can play BG2:EE. I also wanted to give my 2 coppers. Or silvers, maybe. I'll pull out some complaints and respond to them. Some of these have been said before, but are worth saying again. Get ready to for a wall of text, or tl;dr:
1. Daggers don't do as much damage as longswords, therefore they are not viable weapons.
Poppycock! Yes, daggers do less damage than longswords, however, as you get better weapons with enhancement bonuses, and your backstab multiplier goes up, the difference between 1d4 and 1d8 is less relevant. 1d4 on average deals 2.5 damage, before any other bonuses, while 1d8 does 4.5. Sounds like a huge difference, but when you have +3 weapons, that becomes 5.5 and 7.5, respectively. Add on grand mastery for F/T and it's 10.5 and 12.5 (about a 19% difference). Yes, if you want a damage-oriented thief, you should take a few levels in fighter. The class roles are in the names, aren't they? That 2 extra average damage may add up over backstab multipliers, but the minimum damage is the same, which is what you should be concerned about when you line up a sure-kill, which is what backstabs try to be. Also...
Another argument that is just being brushed aside is the "overkill" argument. A highly trained dagger-wielding thief can 1-hit kill many enemies with a successful backstab. Give him a +99 longsword, and he will kill them deader. Good job min-maxing, are you only happy when enemies chunk?
Speed factor DOES make a difference. I grabbed this from the wiki: "Remaining hidden depends on the relative levels of the enemy and the stealther, the level of the hide in shadows ability, and the proximity of the stealther to the enemy." Proximity is the important part here. The sooner you can take your turn and stab your target, the less likely you'll be discovered before you can land your attack. Even without being in stealth, if you attack a spellcaster before they can finish their cast (especially with poison, from the dagger(s) or assassin ability), you can interrupt their spellcasting and completely take them out of the fight.
Also, I'm not sure if this is only in D&D 3.5, but speed factor basically = initiative. If you land a backstab, and the enemy still doesn't die, after the surprise round you're the first to attack again if you have the lowest speed factor. Also, enemies are flat-footed until they take an action. Flat-footed = no dex bonus to AC and sneak attack opportunity. This would only apply if the battle hasn't started yet. The "no dex bonus" is probably reflected by the -4 to THAC0. I should test this and see if the extra sneak attack opportunity applies in BG:EE...
2. There needs to be a strong incentive for using daggers, or no one will take them.
Then also, there are some great dagger-class weapons in BG1 and BG2. These are mostly for poisons (dagger of venom (BG1), neb's, poisoned throwing dagger, pixie prick (BG2)) which makes sense. That's one of the reasons you'd use a dagger over something else. It only needs to deliver the poison, so the damage die doesn't matter, and it helps if you can easily conceal it. It would be nice if there was a concealment bonus like in D&D 3.5 (+2 to sleight of hand). Maybe someone could mod in a +10 to hide when wielding daggers? Would that balance it enough for you?
Daggers do less base damage than long swords. I believe they balanced this well and gave you a reason to use daggers by throwing in lots of them that apply status effects. This is more evident in BG2, but still, dagger of venom = win.
I just keep reading stuff that sounds like "Why would my character use a pistol when he has access to a .50 cal?" Maybe it's a roleplaying choice. Maybe you don't need that much firepower. Maybe you want to put a silencer on it and be sneaky.
Daggers are also a great RP/aesthetic choice. Is that not reason enough for you? What is sounds like is that you want to use daggers for RP reasons, but then are unhappy that they aren't the strongest weapons in the game.
Suck it up. Many of us never had any problems using daggers. I think they're great. At low levels of thief, you'll want to use a shortbow anyway, and at mid and higher levels, the enhancement bonuses from all the magic daggers you find make up for the low damage die.
3. Daggers are THE weapon for "assassins", so thieves should receive some bonus when wielding them.
I don't like the idea of nerfing other weapons or buffing daggers to make daggers viable. You would then just flip the situation and make it so thieves HAVE to use daggers. I don't remember where I read this, but I recall short swords as being the preferred weapon for thieves anyway. Did you notice there's a weapon in PnP and BG called the "short sword of backstabbing"?
This is basically like saying that there needs to be more of an incentive for rangers to use shortbows. Daggers are typically back-up or off-hand weapons, not your main weapon. Again, the only reason to use a standard dagger over a shortsword, in PnP, or real life (historically), is for concealment purposes.
4. My low-level wizard needs to be effective in melee, therefore I should use staves.
Don't use staves. Don't use daggers, either. Give him some darts. His THAC0 is terrible, but darts give, IIRC, 3 base attacks per round. He's bound to hit something, and darts are cheap, and it keeps him out of trouble. You really don't want your mage fighting in melee.
Throwing daggers would be a nice choice here, but unfortunately, they made darts the weapon of choice for mages, due to the reasons above, as well as the incredible enchanted dart selection.
5. Blunt weapons should not be used to backstab
Purely a RP decision here. Blunt weapons are extremely effective for sneak attacks, even though you can't "stab" with them. One blow can kill or incapacitate a target, even if they're wearing armor. This was why war hammers and maces were invented, to bypass armor, which mostly only stopped sharp things from getting through.
Staff of striking is OP, but that's why it has limited charges. The "recharging" via shopkeepers is pure cheese.
Sure, you can't "stab" with blunt weapons. But if that's such a problem with you, then why does everyone keep saying...
6. Backstab = slitting your enemy's throat
No. That would be something like a coup de grace. The name makes sense to me, right? You stab them in the back. It doesn't have to go into their kidney, or heart, or spine, just wherever your thief thinks it will do maximum damage. As your thief becomes more adept, he is able use his knowledge of anatomy and skills with a blade to do even more damage.
If you need a reason why a longsword would do more damage, how about this: Your target is a normal human. A backstab from a dagger or a longsword will kill them outright, either way. Next campaign, your target is an ogre, and your dagger (which has served you well so far) is too short a blade to pierce deep enough to deal optimal damage. In this case, a short sword or a long sword would *possibly* have been enough to kill it.
- - - - - -
Some other ideas:
1. Implement (probably a toned down version of) the D&D 3.5 two-weapon fighting penalties. This is largely handled instead by just a third rank in two-weapon fighting, but in BG, there's really a STRONGER incentive to dual long swords, scimitars, etc (as then you don't have to spread out your proficiency points):
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and –2 –2 Two-Weapon Fighting feat
The item revisions mod did a version of this. I'm not sure if it works for BG:EE:
"This component alters the penalties for dual-wielding by assigning off-hand THAC0 bonuses and penalties to all weapons based on their size/weight. Daggers, short swords, wakizashis, ninja-tos, and clubs are considered light and give a +1 bonus to off-hand THAC0. Bastard swords, flails, and katanas are considered heavy and give a -1 penalty to off-hand THAC0. All other melee weapons are classified as medium and have no bonuses or penalties."
The only thing I don't like is that weapons in your main hand alter your off-hand THAC0, which is different than the PnP rules that I played with.
This would be great as fighters would have to dual wield heavy/light weapons to keep the same modifiers (-0/-2) of maxed two weapon fighting. They have proficiency points to spread around, so specializing in multiple weapon types is reasonable. F/Ts, who are the only thieves who should be dual wielding, IMO, don't have quite as many, and might choose to dual wield the same class of light weapon, resulting in a -0/-0 penalty, which helps with their lower THAC0 anyway. That said, most people don't care if their off-hand weapon hits.
2. Have some sort of stealth bonus for wielding a single dagger. Maybe as a modification to single weapon fighting style? Also allow them to get specialized in this fighting style. I would guess this would be tricky to implement, but it would be perfect for a thief who primarily backstabs.
3. Add a larger variety of throwing knives to BG1. This is the only idea I really agree with. Someone should just mod it in, if they haven't already. As it stands, we have throwing knives getting overshadowed by darts. DARTS!
Comments
2.) You need that damage on low level and especially in BG1. And if you can pick between a dagger or something better ofcourse you'll take something better, which is the reason almost no one plays with daggers except roleplay.
3.) As i mentioned earlier why would you as a normal BG player pick something that is worse? If you have a Longsword +3 why would you pick a longsword +1? Same with a dagger +2 or a quarter staff +3 (BG1). And why would i put gear on my mage when i can go through the whole game naked?
4.) Daggers are versatile, i'll agree with this. But the staff is the weapon everyone in the game can use. How come the staff is so much better than the dagger, also you can find staffs with the same weapon speed? Everyone in the whole game is better using a staff than a dagger.
Mage? Staff
Rogue? Staff
The staff even has longer range than the dagger, so you can stand behind in safety and use it.
Regardless of roleplay if I choose a thief, I always take dagger first. Later I usually take longsword. Loads of variety. Ranged, melee etc.
2.) Slitting someones throat is much more deadly than hitting them in the back of their head. Not to mention you could have a helm on you.
3.) We're talking about a rogue / assassin here, someone that is atleast decently skilled. A knife in the hands of a skilled person is much more deadly than a club.
Anyway this is getting of topic
The REAL culprit here is those pesky staves and clubs! This should actually be a topic in rebalancing these weapons.
What do you think @Dee ? Remove Backstabbing from these weapons? make them non-usable by a rogue? people have been milking the incredibly broken and overpowered damage the staff of striking gives since ToTSC originally came out. I hear nothing but complaints everywhere about this weapon. it should not be able to backstab as this weapon simply put: Has no backstabby end to poke with.
Is it possible to remove backstab from Bludgeoning weapons? It's been way too long for me but what does PnP say about bludgeoning damage and backstabbing?
Surely a pointy end is a requirement for this skill.
Did you know the original PnP version of the Shortsword of Backstabbing was actually supposed to add an extra +1 backstab modifier? I wonder why it was never implimented into BG....
Blunt weapons actually deal MORE internal damage then most piercing weapons do, unless they have a VERY large blade (hence why short swords are preferred over daggers unless concealment is a big issue). They pierce the organ causing internal bleeding and might sever arteries or the like but cause very small wounds, but a blunt strike to the lower back of the head can result in immediate shock and unconsciousness (the same principle a Sap works on actually, except that you're striking up and in, rather then down and to the side, and using a much more narrow implement, rather then a broadslap that spreads the force over the entire back of the skull, since you're TRYING to turn their brain into jello, instead of just render them unconscious), especially that area of the skull, since the most import parts of the brain are in the lower back portion of the skull, and can result in either instant death or becoming brain dead as a result. Blunt strikes to the spine or kidney areas can also cause massive nervous system paralysis or death, or bad internal bleeding, shock and a horribly agonizingly slow and painful death). Technically, a similar strike with a dagger or shortsword would work just as well, but the blunt version will work regardless of any armor or neck protectors they might be wearing.
It's why blunt is better vs heavy armor. piercing or cutting has to penetrate to cause damage (there's some blunt force as well, but they aren't designed with maximizing that force in mind)...blunt ignores the armor and attacks the insides directly due to a more focus strike, that the force of not only penetrates deeper and causes internal damage, it crushes the armor making it difficult to move.
Daggers have the fastest base attack speed (1)....this means you're more likely to get off the backstab before the target can move away. Most other weapons are in 5-7 base range, with only a handful below that (clubs and QS basically (3), scimitars at 4)).
Even halberds and 2hd swords eventually hit 0 speed, depending on proficiencies, specialization, class bonuses, and enhancement level. Once magic comes into play, that's the end of innate balance, because magic is inherently imbalanced in nature, due to screwing with natural laws.
The way I see it, there is some features we want souly for rogue while we still want a few other features available for other dagger wielding classes.
In my opinion, all rogues start with proficiency in this style (can't come up with a proper name that doesn't sound like it's your ordinary dagger proficiency slot). While all other classes have the option to gain proficiency. Specialization and Mastery may be obtained only by rogues (in which lies your added backstab bonus or whatever you want specifically to be available to rogues in the moment of backstabbery) I would also argue that this style can be used in conjunction to other weapon styles that apply... but as a rogue, you'll be pressed to add a verity of weapons when you want to invest so much into daggers. A fighter/thief would make the most out of it...
However, I don't know of any dagger that is going to do 3d6 damage to colossal creatures. In 2e, Daggers do 1d4 to smaller than man-sized or man-sized creatures, and 1d3 to larger than man-sized creatures. Look at the size of a dagger blade as for WHY this is so. If you stab a colossal creature with a dagger, it's like an ant stabbing a human with a sewing needle. Oh it will hurt, sure, but do that much damage? Unless you are focusing on an eye, it's not going to be that damaging. And colossal creatures live up to their name. You aren't going to be likely to even get NEAR something that can be damaged so easily.
Now, I haven't used the Dagger of Venom in the game, but I'd like it to be something only used by evil characters or creatures- why? Because poison use is an evil act in AD&D 2e. Either that, or it should impact your reputation if you use it- in a negative fashion. Again, people are not going to trust someone who goes around poisoning people. At the very least, you should have to refill it. The original Dagger of Venom only had enough poison for three hits at a time. It wasn't a magical font of never ending poison. Which means finding people who can sell you poison... which shouldn't be easy, either.
Going back to your table, a huge dagger would cause 1d8 damage, whereas it would be wielded as a longsword by a human for the same damage.
Confusing? Yes.
In this respect, namely speed and hit-run tactics, I find dagger to be more useful than a staff for a mage. Another character can use a staff with two handed weapon style to better effect, since thw style gives good speed and damage bonuses. But a mage can't learn such combat tricks, and as such dagger is his best bet for fast attacks.
And it is a novelty, while a magical staff suits the image of a powerful mage better, back in 1e rules, a magic-user could only equip and use a dagger. And all mages used to hide a dagger in their sleeves for desperate times..it gives good flavour to the game if I let my mage to use a dagger in sticky situations. ^^
I feel this mod itself could be a response to issues people have with the thief/bard. I'll make a new topic/poll on the subject and see how people feel about applying this mod to BG:EE.
@Edvin - I don't know if you have tried it but I definitely feel it might be worth a shot. You will thoroughly enjoy it.
Ding0's Tweak Pack has a component that I think is the most sensible implementation of weapons suitable for backstab. Only daggers and short swords get the full backstab multiplier; other weapons can still be used to backstab but at a reduced efficiency. Long swords can backstab at one less the regular multiple (so a thief with quintuple damage only gets triple with a long sword) all the way to a massive -5 with halberds. The full table of penalties by weapon type are in the readme.
It forces a tradeoff between balancing your general combat weapon vs. being able to backstab.
My Assassin deals ridiculous damage with daggers. Don't let me get started on poison. You know that mage that nukes your entire party with fireballs? Dead before the battle begins.
My bounty hunter can murder even the most powerful fighters with traps (with Rogue Rebalancing, incapacitates foes with ease). You know those swarms of annoying enemies that come out of nowhere and overwhelm your party? Dead before the battle begins.
My swashbuckler is pretty much a dual wielding fighter with better tanking capabilities AND with the benefits of finding traps and opening locks. Full plate? pah. Shields? BAH.
Thieves are one of the only classes that can solo the game whilst getting the most out of it.
I struggle to play any other class these days (perhaps mages). 'Point and click' fighters just don't do anything for me.
And what pure-class thieves can do well, expect for traps and locks? Before you answer, please, don't say "dual-class", because it's never an option for me.
That's really their biggest advantage over their kits in PnP (aside from generally getting 60 skill points at creation, while all the kits get 40, and most of the kits only get 20 points per level instead of 25 or suffer base penalties to certain skills) (none of the kits learn to use scrolls, and as a result can never get Use Any item (which just removes failure chance for scrolls up to 6th level, halves the base penalty for 7-9, and allows them to use wands, and NOTHING ELSE)).
The Thief is a generic utility guy, almost like a bard, but without their broad access to NCP pools and innate spell casting and focus on social situations, relying instead on limited resources and a high failure chance to add spell casting, but also gaining non-spell based methods for opening locks and removing traps, a job which they excel at, and can't be readily replaced. (backstab is more of an afterthought in PnP because it's EXTREMELY difficult to land a backstab, and you generally only get 1 per encounter...or less, if anyone spots your thief moving in before you can land a strike since once they call out a warning, you can never backstab that encounter due to all the enemies being on guard).
Remember: Pure thieves can also backstab with reckless abandon. I played one as my main character all the way through BG back before I used mods of BG:EE. I still killed most things with backstab. A thief still made battles with mages extremely easy, scouting and backstabbing with impunity.
With the introduction of EE and mods, pure thieves can also set traps - albeit not as well as the bounty hunter, but still very useful.
Pure thieves also get a very very high level of thief skills to use. So you have a thief, who can backstab very well, set traps decently and provide all the utility a party needs.
I find thieves to be extremely useful throughout BG and BG2, pure or with kits. They are a necessity for me, not just for the utility, but because of their killing capabilities - they made certain battles very very easy.
Only the Assassin is really worse off, due to being penalized more then they should and getting a worthless bonus in compensation (unless you're soloing or duoing, by the time you get x6 or above BS, there's hardly any enemies worth using it on or they're immune). (I'd cap them at x5 BS (the PnP assassin is a poison specialist, not a backstabber, because backstab is nearly worthless in PnP due to the difficulty in actually pulling one off), bump them up to 20 skill points and otherwise leave the class alone...it's fairly balanced if it just has poison use and +1 hit/damage. (made a more in depth suggestion for changes to the assassin over in the Add RRB feature request).
The BH is only about 2 levels behind in skill growth and get double the traps per day, and the swashbuckler is given ample compensation for the lack of backstab, trading off early offensive power, for mid-late game ridiculous offensive AND defensive potential (brokenly so, I might add).
First I want to echo the request for more/interesting daggers (particularly a throwing dagger that returns to the user for BG1:EE).
I like the idea of backstab modifiers, but I tend towards mods for such broad mechanics changes that aren't bug fixes or new content.
Adding some magic daggers with personality would go quite a way in making them more viable. After all it's the unique item that is memorable and interesting, not the blanket buff of an item type
EDIT: grammar, syntax, word choice
1. Daggers don't do as much damage as longswords, therefore they are not viable weapons.
Poppycock! Yes, daggers do less damage than longswords, however, as you get better weapons with enhancement bonuses, and your backstab multiplier goes up, the difference between 1d4 and 1d8 is less relevant. 1d4 on average deals 2.5 damage, before any other bonuses, while 1d8 does 4.5. Sounds like a huge difference, but when you have +3 weapons, that becomes 5.5 and 7.5, respectively. Add on grand mastery for F/T and it's 10.5 and 12.5 (about a 19% difference). Yes, if you want a damage-oriented thief, you should take a few levels in fighter. The class roles are in the names, aren't they? That 2 extra average damage may add up over backstab multipliers, but the minimum damage is the same, which is what you should be concerned about when you line up a sure-kill, which is what backstabs try to be. Also...
Another argument that is just being brushed aside is the "overkill" argument. A highly trained dagger-wielding thief can 1-hit kill many enemies with a successful backstab. Give him a +99 longsword, and he will kill them deader. Good job min-maxing, are you only happy when enemies chunk?
Speed factor DOES make a difference. I grabbed this from the wiki: "Remaining hidden depends on the relative levels of the enemy and the stealther, the level of the hide in shadows ability, and the proximity of the stealther to the enemy." Proximity is the important part here. The sooner you can take your turn and stab your target, the less likely you'll be discovered before you can land your attack. Even without being in stealth, if you attack a spellcaster before they can finish their cast (especially with poison, from the dagger(s) or assassin ability), you can interrupt their spellcasting and completely take them out of the fight.
Also, I'm not sure if this is only in D&D 3.5, but speed factor basically = initiative. If you land a backstab, and the enemy still doesn't die, after the surprise round you're the first to attack again if you have the lowest speed factor. Also, enemies are flat-footed until they take an action. Flat-footed = no dex bonus to AC and sneak attack opportunity. This would only apply if the battle hasn't started yet. The "no dex bonus" is probably reflected by the -4 to THAC0. I should test this and see if the extra sneak attack opportunity applies in BG:EE...
2. There needs to be a strong incentive for using daggers, or no one will take them.
Then also, there are some great dagger-class weapons in BG1 and BG2. These are mostly for poisons (dagger of venom (BG1), neb's, poisoned throwing dagger, pixie prick (BG2)) which makes sense. That's one of the reasons you'd use a dagger over something else. It only needs to deliver the poison, so the damage die doesn't matter, and it helps if you can easily conceal it. It would be nice if there was a concealment bonus like in D&D 3.5 (+2 to sleight of hand). Maybe someone could mod in a +10 to hide when wielding daggers? Would that balance it enough for you?
Daggers do less base damage than long swords. I believe they balanced this well and gave you a reason to use daggers by throwing in lots of them that apply status effects. This is more evident in BG2, but still, dagger of venom = win.
I just keep reading stuff that sounds like "Why would my character use a pistol when he has access to a .50 cal?" Maybe it's a roleplaying choice. Maybe you don't need that much firepower. Maybe you want to put a silencer on it and be sneaky.
Daggers are also a great RP/aesthetic choice. Is that not reason enough for you? What is sounds like is that you want to use daggers for RP reasons, but then are unhappy that they aren't the strongest weapons in the game.
Suck it up. Many of us never had any problems using daggers. I think they're great. At low levels of thief, you'll want to use a shortbow anyway, and at mid and higher levels, the enhancement bonuses from all the magic daggers you find make up for the low damage die.
3. Daggers are THE weapon for "assassins", so thieves should receive some bonus when wielding them.
I don't like the idea of nerfing other weapons or buffing daggers to make daggers viable. You would then just flip the situation and make it so thieves HAVE to use daggers. I don't remember where I read this, but I recall short swords as being the preferred weapon for thieves anyway. Did you notice there's a weapon in PnP and BG called the "short sword of backstabbing"?
This is basically like saying that there needs to be more of an incentive for rangers to use shortbows. Daggers are typically back-up or off-hand weapons, not your main weapon. Again, the only reason to use a standard dagger over a shortsword, in PnP, or real life (historically), is for concealment purposes.
4. My low-level wizard needs to be effective in melee, therefore I should use staves.
Don't use staves. Don't use daggers, either. Give him some darts. His THAC0 is terrible, but darts give, IIRC, 3 base attacks per round. He's bound to hit something, and darts are cheap, and it keeps him out of trouble. You really don't want your mage fighting in melee.
Throwing daggers would be a nice choice here, but unfortunately, they made darts the weapon of choice for mages, due to the reasons above, as well as the incredible enchanted dart selection.
5. Blunt weapons should not be used to backstab
Purely a RP decision here. Blunt weapons are extremely effective for sneak attacks, even though you can't "stab" with them. One blow can kill or incapacitate a target, even if they're wearing armor. This was why war hammers and maces were invented, to bypass armor, which mostly only stopped sharp things from getting through.
Staff of striking is OP, but that's why it has limited charges. The "recharging" via shopkeepers is pure cheese.
Sure, you can't "stab" with blunt weapons. But if that's such a problem with you, then why does everyone keep saying...
6. Backstab = slitting your enemy's throat
No. That would be something like a coup de grace. The name makes sense to me, right? You stab them in the back. It doesn't have to go into their kidney, or heart, or spine, just wherever your thief thinks it will do maximum damage. As your thief becomes more adept, he is able use his knowledge of anatomy and skills with a blade to do even more damage.
If you need a reason why a longsword would do more damage, how about this: Your target is a normal human. A backstab from a dagger or a longsword will kill them outright, either way. Next campaign, your target is an ogre, and your dagger (which has served you well so far) is too short a blade to pierce deep enough to deal optimal damage. In this case, a short sword or a long sword would *possibly* have been enough to kill it.
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Some other ideas:
1. Implement (probably a toned down version of) the D&D 3.5 two-weapon fighting penalties. This is largely handled instead by just a third rank in two-weapon fighting, but in BG, there's really a STRONGER incentive to dual long swords, scimitars, etc (as then you don't have to spread out your proficiency points):
Normal penalties –6 –10
Off-hand weapon is light –4 –8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat –4 –4
Off-hand weapon is light and –2 –2
Two-Weapon Fighting feat
The item revisions mod did a version of this. I'm not sure if it works for BG:EE:
"This component alters the penalties for dual-wielding by assigning off-hand THAC0 bonuses and penalties to all weapons based on their size/weight. Daggers, short swords, wakizashis, ninja-tos, and clubs are considered light and give a +1 bonus to off-hand THAC0. Bastard swords, flails, and katanas are considered heavy and give a -1 penalty to off-hand THAC0. All other melee weapons are classified as medium and have no bonuses or penalties."
The only thing I don't like is that weapons in your main hand alter your off-hand THAC0, which is different than the PnP rules that I played with.
This would be great as fighters would have to dual wield heavy/light weapons to keep the same modifiers (-0/-2) of maxed two weapon fighting. They have proficiency points to spread around, so specializing in multiple weapon types is reasonable. F/Ts, who are the only thieves who should be dual wielding, IMO, don't have quite as many, and might choose to dual wield the same class of light weapon, resulting in a -0/-0 penalty, which helps with their lower THAC0 anyway. That said, most people don't care if their off-hand weapon hits.
2. Have some sort of stealth bonus for wielding a single dagger. Maybe as a modification to single weapon fighting style? Also allow them to get specialized in this fighting style. I would guess this would be tricky to implement, but it would be perfect for a thief who primarily backstabs.
3. Add a larger variety of throwing knives to BG1. This is the only idea I really agree with. Someone should just mod it in, if they haven't already. As it stands, we have throwing knives getting overshadowed by darts. DARTS!
Something like "Dirty fighting":
1* All daggers get +1 dmg and +1 THAC0
2* No THAC0 penalty for holding dagger in second hand