A tiefling PC would mean that PC's mother was a tiefling.
Similarly, a half-elf or half-orc PC means that the PCs mother was a half-elf or half-orc.
Yes, I believe that the children of Bhaal get their mother's race. I suppose that Bhaal shapeshifted to it's mating partner's race so that the child would be of the same race as the mother. That's why Yaga Shura is a pure blooded fire giant, not a half-human one, and that kobold bhaalspawn that you meet in Marching mountains is a kobold, not half-human. I'll also assume that Abazigal's mother was a half dragon so that's why other dragons call him half-breed, not because of Bhaal blood (it is possible that it is clarly stated in the game that it IS because of his Bhaal blood, but I can't say for sure).
So it is not a problem for a child of Bhaal to be of any race. Even the divine Aasimar.
And didn't they announce that they will include subraces in a patch after game release? Or they gave up on that plan? Or maybe I misunderstood something...
Half dragons doesn't have access to full draconic form. They call him half-breed cos even being a son of a god, they saw him as something tainted, being not pure dragon, no matter if Bhaal shapeshifted or not for him to be born.
There's a lot of inconsistence in the game about this issue in fact, i believe the time of breeding of a dragon egg is considerable long, Abazigal would not even be born maybe during the bhaalspawn main saga, Drows have long term traditions, and for Sendai control so much power as she did among drows, she would need to spend at least 30 years in the Arach-Tinilith.
So, there's some inconsistences in the game, but that can't be helped.
@kamuizin I tend to think that Bhaal foresaw his own demise with decades, if now centuries in advance (you woulda thought he would try to change the predetermined course of action...), despite the fact that sources tell you he fathered them all during the Time of Troubles. The Time of Troubles came about in 1358DR, while BG is taking place during 1368DR, making Charname just 10 years old(!) at the beginning of the game. The presence of Bhaalspawn that belong to long-lived races such as elves, dragons and giants provides further evidence for this theory. Perhaps some developer or storywriter would finally clear up the issue that has been eating at the BG community for over a decade now?
You don't think he tried? I assuming that planting seeds throughout FR was his loophole out of failure. Lets face it... that's a lot of sex just to save his own hide >.> or maybe Bhaal has been a playa all these years and finally had a use for all those bastard children of his. Historians just notated it as 'during the Times of Trouble'.
anyways, you know how self-proving prophecies go, the more you fight it, the more you enable it.
You know, if I was a deity of considerable power and a nice wide portfolio (ladies love some of that divine essence, I hear), I certainly wouldn't wait for my imminent death to get involved in some serious epic level conquests
Actually it does specifically state that tiefling are the descendants of infernal races or evil gods.
It's likely since he was diliberately spreading his power out, that his children were only minorly touched by the power allowing the possibility of developing tiefling features, instead of the case where Bane jammed half of his power into Itachu Xvim causing him to be born as an obvious half-fiend demi-god.
Sorry for the ressurection, but I'd like to point out that the child of a human and a creature of the lower planes would effectively be a half-fiend, not a tiefling. Tiefling come later in the family line because the demonic power becomes less after each human in the line. Thefore a Tiefling would have to be born from a half-fiend or maybe even later.
You'd have to adjust the description accordingly.
I actually just read about it when I was reading about tieflings, I still have to find their racial bonuses, heh.
Tiefling characters gain a +1 bonus on Intelligence and Charisma scores, but suffer a -1 penalty to Strength and Wisdom. Tieflings can be of any alignment save lawful good. They also gain a number of special abilities, based on their mysterious heritage: They possess infravision to a range of 60 feet and have the ability to create darkness, 15-foot radius once per day. Tieflings suffer only half damage from cold-based attacks, and they gain a +2 bonus to all saving throws vs. fire, electricity, or poison. (from the Planescape setting for AD&D.)
Speaking of tieflings... the ones we refer to are all human tieflings? That is, humans with infernal/evil god heritage? Can there be, or should there be tiefling versions of every race?
Technically you can have human tiefling, elf tiefling, dwarf tieflings etc. Tieflings and Aasimar are not race, they are cross-breeds from other races. ( Same like half-orc, half-elf etc. ) But there is simply too many different types and they have too many different powers and bonuses. Elf with Balor ancestor will have completely different powers and bonuses then dwarf with Glabrezu ancestor. Same for Aasimar and divine equivalent.
Tieflings also need new paperdolls ( they have wings, tails, horns etc. ) and that is unrealizable.
That why they almost certainly don't be implement.
Well not all have wings, there is just a chance to have them. Still, I don't think players actually expect to have hooved feet etc. etc. I doubt they'll implement those charts for random tiefling cosmetics either. Too many possibilities, too many paper dolls. If anything, they'll apply a touch of tiefling and make it universal for all player characters.
Anyways, my earlier post was in consideration of an rp idea that as your character develops Bhaal powers he/she start developing tiefling traits.
Does Haer'Dalis have a special paper doll? If not, that wouldn't be an implementation issue for a PC tiefling (or aasimar).
You can judge whole "race" according to single representative. Tieflings are simply too much dissimilar each other. EVEN if you generalize their powers and bonuses, you CAN'T generalize their look.
Above that, anyone can be tiefling or Aasimar. So if you really want implement them, then ALL races must have Tiefling and Aasimar subrace.
Even Drow, Genasi or Avariel ( crazy thing, we actualy have Avariel paper doll )
Except Drow, who need few dialog modifications ( and maybe Avariel ) will be all of this races very easy to implement. We dont need any new paper dolls, all will be only about allowed skin and hair colors. Most off then even dont have any special powers ( well, Genasi can be mildy difficult here ).
Yeah, one of the biggest things I hated about 4th (in addition to everything), is that they gave tiefling a standard look (*cough*draeneiripoffs*cough*), where as before, tiefling could justify ANY physical trait that didn't have a combat or genuine utility purpose.
Tiefling as defined in the rules are human/Half-fiend hybrids (at minimum...though they're usually further diluted then that), with their appearances generally being less pronounced the thinner their fiend blood has become (but not always).
Aasimer though tend to look like normal humans, just with odd hair or skin colors and/or glowing (to some extent) eyes.
Genasi are generally fully human looking, albeit with minor traits such as skin/hair color, or similar strange complexions (water genasi tend to be most freaky looking since they have a tendency to have webbed feet/hands or gill slits).
the elf equivalent are Feyree, and the orc equivalent are Tarnaruk. (they're MUCH stronger then tiefling (they're more akin to Half-fiends then tiefling) and have completely different rules). Dwarves and Halfling are too magic resistant to breed successfully with magical beings. Gnomes don't as well...but I've never seen a reason why. There simply aren't any examples in existence.
I would immediately delete everything associated with BG if they EVER added anything from 4th edition into this game...including standardized tiefling appearances. I'm fine with just using an appropriate portrait, since the paper dolls don't match your characters worth a damn anyway (my mage NEVER has a F'ing beard, human or no).
Even if it is not implemented in a patch, shouldn't it be reasonably easy to mod the tiefling in at least? I have been experimenting with Tiefling characters since the original BG2 (using Shadowkeeper), and apart from cosmetics, and spell-like abilities (maybe also dialogue?) the game is ready for us to play a tiefling, simply because Haer'Dalis is one. This is most likely in the individual race's data or something. If you'd change your race in Shadowkeeper to Tiefling, you're a Tiefling. Change it to something else (vampire, orc..) the game would crash. Note: this has carried over to BGEE! I tried recreating one of my Tiefling characters in EE and it worked. Still crashed with orcs though.
I have no idea myself how to do it, but I'd be satisfied with a button for Tiefling in the character creation screen. I'd use EEKeeper to fill in the gaps...
Edit: @typo_tilly, Tieflings (including Haer'Dalis) default to an Elf-paperdoll. Also fine in my opnion, because feasable and too small to see fangs or facial markings anyway.
I'm fine with Haer'Dalis getting full P&P racial traits, but I wouldn't want Tieflings to become a selectable race for CHARNAME. The reason is the same I have written in the afore-linked thread about Drows.
I wouldn't want to make a tiefling or drow myself, but if these people want to do that and don't care how charname shouldn't be able to be a tiefling or drow then I think the feature should be added for them (if there is the time for it).
You and I wouldn't ever have to select those races ourselves and the other people would be happier for playing drows and tieflings. But that's just my point of view! (:
Even if it is not implemented in a patch, shouldn't it be reasonably easy to mod the tiefling in at least? I have been experimenting with Tiefling characters since the original BG2 (using Shadowkeeper), and apart from cosmetics, and spell-like abilities (maybe also dialogue?) the game is ready for us to play a tiefling, simply because Haer'Dalis is one. This is most likely in the individual race's data or something. If you'd change your race in Shadowkeeper to Tiefling, you're a Tiefling. Change it to something else (vampire, orc..) the game would crash. Note: this has carried over to BGEE! I tried recreating one of my Tiefling characters in EE and it worked. Still crashed with orcs though.
I have no idea myself how to do it, but I'd be satisfied with a button for Tiefling in the character creation screen. I'd use EEKeeper to fill in the gaps...
Edit: @typo_tilly, Tieflings (including Haer'Dalis) default to an Elf-paperdoll. Also fine in my opnion, because feasable and too small to see fangs or facial markings anyway.
I wanted to add that the dialogue seems to work fine if you edit Charname into a tiefling. Because it is a coded race (due to Haer), it seems to display fine in dialogue as much as the others. You need to edit in the racial bonuses and penalties, though, but otherwise it seems to work fine (at least in EE).
I know I replied on this thread over a year ago, and somehow during that time I've changed my stance a bit on the Tiefling/Aasimar thing....
Honestly I would love to play Aasimar... and be EVIL! I think the realms call for something unique such as that, and the fact that you're Aasimar or Tiefling and YOU win the throne of Bhaal just makes more RP sense from a certain point of view. The Five were all very unique individuals, and mostly because of their mother's heritige, as well as their father's. Count me in for this most definitely...
ALSO, would it be possible to edit racetext.2da to make new races? It just seems possible with that file... but perhaps I'm just being Naive.......
I wanted to add that the dialogue seems to work fine if you edit Charname into a tiefling. Because it is a coded race (due to Haer), it seems to display fine in dialogue as much as the others. You need to edit in the racial bonuses and penalties, though, but otherwise it seems to work fine (at least in EE).
Ahh true! I now remember an unfriendly dwarf on the upper floor of an Athkathla inn referring to the player as a "puny [Char Race]"... But apart from that I don't think there's any other flavored events like "if CharRace=Tiefling goto..." etc.
Honestly I would love to play Aasimar... and be EVIL! I think the realms call for something unique such as that, and the fact that you're Aasimar or Tiefling and YOU win the throne of Bhaal just makes more RP sense from a certain point of view. The Five were all very unique individuals, and mostly because of their mother's heritige, as well as their father's.
I feel Tiefling (or the other race's equivalent) definitely makes sense, since Charname basically is one already. Human/Elf/etc. for the most part with a spark of the lower planes. It's a little more divine than usual, but still...
I'm not feeling the Aasimar though, as a PC. I remember a source (not sure which) stating, on the hypothetical child of an Aasimar and a Tiefling, that the already diluted sparks from both the good and evil outsider would in practice simply cancel each other out. Also depending on how far back in the bloodline and how powerful the respective outsiders were of course. I do feel the possibility of evil Aasimar characters in general though. I have an evil Aasimar wizard who is convinced he's entitled to ever more power, because of his bloodline.
@Sjerrie I honestly am a little confused by what you mean... are you trying to insinuate that the essence of Bhaal would cancel out the divine essence from an Aasimar woman? I'm just asking because in another thread it was argued that a child of Bhaal is NOT a tiefling...
Although if this is not what you mean then please elaborate? I'm not trying to be condescending, I am actually quite interested in your point of view, as anything that might break the game in terms on continuity or roleplay, I wouldn't like anyways,
@Xavioria, no offense taken, I am also interested in others' opinions on the matter.
IIRC, in official D&D sources it is stated that a Tiefling is a human with an evil outsider in his/her bloodline, and similarly an Aasimar has a good outsider. Also, I think a lot of outsiders have a trait called "no dual nature", which basically prevents angels, solars, etc from being naturally evil, and a demon or devil from being naturally good. Since those creatures are the essence of good or evil, it seems to me that the Powers That Be are trying to say that those essences simply cannot be mixed or mingled and subsequently exist in the same body (note that is an opinion I have ).
In my second paragraph I merely put forth the speculation of myself (and others) that if an Aasimar and a Tiefling, whose outsider ancestors are exactly equal in power, and are exactly equally distant in the respective bloodlines, if they'd have a child, that it might just be a a reasonably normal human, lacking any signs of a planar heritage.
For the question "is a child of Bhaal by definition a Tiefling?" you'd first need to define what Bhaal is, exactly, when he was "sowing his oats" so to speak... This I feel is difficult, since not only is Bhaal technically an outsider, he is also an "Intermediate Deity" (game term). Furthermore, as I am of the opinion that not all his children were conceived during the actual Time of Troubles (makes sense considering Charname's age) the rules for a deity's avatar might also complicate things, since iirc the avatars are manifestations, not the literally flesh-n-blood gods. (If an avatar dies, the deity still lives I think, but the gods that died during the Time of Troubles were in fact dead. Ergo, those two are not the same type of being.)
Now, "outsiders" come in all shapes, sizes and power levels. My opinion is that both Bhaal and his avatars were evil outsiders, probably even rules-wise. The fact that he is also a deity (game term) might simply increase the power of that evil essence as i called it to an incredible level (compared to the average demon for instance) or it might change the rules so that this essence is not the same evil essence anymore as a demon's or devil's. If his essence is still the same, but way more powerful, and we go with my opinion, then I think it would also impossible (or at least highly illogical) for Bhaal to assume the form of an Aasimar (since good and evil essences don't go together in the same body). Also, but regardless of his physical form, Bhaal's child with an Aasimar would not produce an Aasimar child, because the evil essence is waaay too powerful compared to the diluted good essence of the Aasimar woman.
Whew,, that might actually be quite off-topic there. But anyway, we usually form opinions to explain inconsistencies in the game (and life!) and thus make it more believable or enjoyable to us. This is mostly my own opinion, and as far as I know it doesn't go against 'canon'.
Comments
So it is not a problem for a child of Bhaal to be of any race. Even the divine Aasimar.
And didn't they announce that they will include subraces in a patch after game release? Or they gave up on that plan? Or maybe I misunderstood something...
There's a lot of inconsistence in the game about this issue in fact, i believe the time of breeding of a dragon egg is considerable long, Abazigal would not even be born maybe during the bhaalspawn main saga, Drows have long term traditions, and for Sendai control so much power as she did among drows, she would need to spend at least 30 years in the Arach-Tinilith.
So, there's some inconsistences in the game, but that can't be helped.
anyways, you know how self-proving prophecies go, the more you fight it, the more you enable it.
It's likely since he was diliberately spreading his power out, that his children were only minorly touched by the power allowing the possibility of developing tiefling features, instead of the case where Bane jammed half of his power into Itachu Xvim causing him to be born as an obvious half-fiend demi-god.
You are right.
Technically you can have human tiefling, elf tiefling, dwarf tieflings etc.
Tieflings and Aasimar are not race, they are cross-breeds from other races. ( Same like half-orc, half-elf etc. )
But there is simply too many different types and they have too many different powers and bonuses.
Elf with Balor ancestor will have completely different powers and bonuses then dwarf with Glabrezu ancestor.
Same for Aasimar and divine equivalent.
Tieflings also need new paperdolls ( they have wings, tails, horns etc. ) and that is unrealizable.
That why they almost certainly don't be implement.
Anyways, my earlier post was in consideration of an rp idea that as your character develops Bhaal powers he/she start developing tiefling traits.
Tieflings are simply too much dissimilar each other.
EVEN if you generalize their powers and bonuses, you CAN'T generalize their look.
Above that, anyone can be tiefling or Aasimar.
So if you really want implement them, then ALL races must have Tiefling and Aasimar subrace.
That sound little bit unrealizable.
We can do:
Arctic Dwarf
Gold Dwarf
Gray Dwarf
Shield Dwarf
Urdunnir Dwarf
Wild Dwarf
Aquatic Elf
Wood Elf
Sun Elf
Wild Elf
Moon Elf
Deep Gnome
Forest Gnome
Rock Gnome
Strongheart Halflings
Lightfoot Halflings
Ghostwise Halflings
Even Drow, Genasi or Avariel ( crazy thing, we actualy have Avariel paper doll )
Except Drow, who need few dialog modifications ( and maybe Avariel ) will be all of this races very easy to implement. We dont need any new paper dolls, all will be only about allowed skin and hair colors. Most off then even dont have any special powers ( well, Genasi can be mildy difficult here ).
Tiefling as defined in the rules are human/Half-fiend hybrids (at minimum...though they're usually further diluted then that), with their appearances generally being less pronounced the thinner their fiend blood has become (but not always).
Aasimer though tend to look like normal humans, just with odd hair or skin colors and/or glowing (to some extent) eyes.
Genasi are generally fully human looking, albeit with minor traits such as skin/hair color, or similar strange complexions (water genasi tend to be most freaky looking since they have a tendency to have webbed feet/hands or gill slits).
the elf equivalent are Feyree, and the orc equivalent are Tarnaruk. (they're MUCH stronger then tiefling (they're more akin to Half-fiends then tiefling) and have completely different rules). Dwarves and Halfling are too magic resistant to breed successfully with magical beings. Gnomes don't as well...but I've never seen a reason why. There simply aren't any examples in existence.
In Durlag's Tower is one Half-dwarf.
Acording d&d rules also exist Dwelf, half dwarf and half elf.
( But it is disgusting thought )
Good luck with new paper dolls
Even if it is not implemented in a patch, shouldn't it be reasonably easy to mod the tiefling in at least? I have been experimenting with Tiefling characters since the original BG2 (using Shadowkeeper), and apart from cosmetics, and spell-like abilities (maybe also dialogue?) the game is ready for us to play a tiefling, simply because Haer'Dalis is one. This is most likely in the individual race's data or something. If you'd change your race in Shadowkeeper to Tiefling, you're a Tiefling. Change it to something else (vampire, orc..) the game would crash. Note: this has carried over to BGEE! I tried recreating one of my Tiefling characters in EE and it worked. Still crashed with orcs though.
I have no idea myself how to do it, but I'd be satisfied with a button for Tiefling in the character creation screen. I'd use EEKeeper to fill in the gaps...
Edit: @typo_tilly, Tieflings (including Haer'Dalis) default to an Elf-paperdoll. Also fine in my opnion, because feasable and too small to see fangs or facial markings anyway.
You and I wouldn't ever have to select those races ourselves and the other people would be happier for playing drows and tieflings. But that's just my point of view! (:
Honestly I would love to play Aasimar... and be EVIL! I think the realms call for something unique such as that, and the fact that you're Aasimar or Tiefling and YOU win the throne of Bhaal just makes more RP sense from a certain point of view. The Five were all very unique individuals, and mostly because of their mother's heritige, as well as their father's. Count me in for this most definitely...
ALSO, would it be possible to edit racetext.2da to make new races? It just seems possible with that file... but perhaps I'm just being Naive.......
I'm not feeling the Aasimar though, as a PC. I remember a source (not sure which) stating, on the hypothetical child of an Aasimar and a Tiefling, that the already diluted sparks from both the good and evil outsider would in practice simply cancel each other out. Also depending on how far back in the bloodline and how powerful the respective outsiders were of course. I do feel the possibility of evil Aasimar characters in general though. I have an evil Aasimar wizard who is convinced he's entitled to ever more power, because of his bloodline.
Although if this is not what you mean then please elaborate? I'm not trying to be condescending, I am actually quite interested in your point of view, as anything that might break the game in terms on continuity or roleplay, I wouldn't like anyways,
IIRC, in official D&D sources it is stated that a Tiefling is a human with an evil outsider in his/her bloodline, and similarly an Aasimar has a good outsider. Also, I think a lot of outsiders have a trait called "no dual nature", which basically prevents angels, solars, etc from being naturally evil, and a demon or devil from being naturally good. Since those creatures are the essence of good or evil, it seems to me that the Powers That Be are trying to say that those essences simply cannot be mixed or mingled and subsequently exist in the same body (note that is an opinion I have
In my second paragraph I merely put forth the speculation of myself (and others) that if an Aasimar and a Tiefling, whose outsider ancestors are exactly equal in power, and are exactly equally distant in the respective bloodlines, if they'd have a child, that it might just be a a reasonably normal human, lacking any signs of a planar heritage.
For the question "is a child of Bhaal by definition a Tiefling?" you'd first need to define what Bhaal is, exactly, when he was "sowing his oats" so to speak... This I feel is difficult, since not only is Bhaal technically an outsider, he is also an "Intermediate Deity" (game term). Furthermore, as I am of the opinion that not all his children were conceived during the actual Time of Troubles (makes sense considering Charname's age) the rules for a deity's avatar might also complicate things, since iirc the avatars are manifestations, not the literally flesh-n-blood gods. (If an avatar dies, the deity still lives I think, but the gods that died during the Time of Troubles were in fact dead. Ergo, those two are not the same type of being.)
Now, "outsiders" come in all shapes, sizes and power levels. My opinion is that both Bhaal and his avatars were evil outsiders, probably even rules-wise. The fact that he is also a deity (game term) might simply increase the power of that evil essence as i called it to an incredible level (compared to the average demon for instance) or it might change the rules so that this essence is not the same evil essence anymore as a demon's or devil's. If his essence is still the same, but way more powerful, and we go with my opinion, then I think it would also impossible (or at least highly illogical) for Bhaal to assume the form of an Aasimar (since good and evil essences don't go together in the same body). Also, but regardless of his physical form, Bhaal's child with an Aasimar would not produce an Aasimar child, because the evil essence is waaay too powerful compared to the diluted good essence of the Aasimar woman.
Whew,, that might actually be quite off-topic there.