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Is Cernd still useless?

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  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598


    In short, if you want a Spellcaster, Cernd is the obvious choice.

    If you want a crappy Spellcaster for most of the game who will spend more time bashing the NPCs with her raw strength, then Jaheria /might/ be a better choice. Just because she wears armour doesn't make her any less Druid-Squishy in combat.

    This is really stupid what you've said.
  • CoM_SolaufeinCoM_Solaufein Member Posts: 2,607
    Noober is more useful than Cernd. Next question.
    booinyoureyes
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    Yea noober is fun to kill. When I gibbed Cernd, I didnt even crack a smile, most boring thing I ever stuck my sword into.

    Xan on the other hand, I stabbed him once, stabbed him again, plucked out his eyeballs with the tips of my blades, ripped off his ears, cut out his spleen, and generally just kept hacking away for about a full day or two and enjoyed every minute. But it wasnt enough so I made a crude Xan doll out of hay and tried to recreate the same experience over and over again.
    Wolkbooinyoureyes
  • InfiltratorInfiltrator Member Posts: 121
    It really is a shame they left him in the dust. I mean I get people that want to enforce the unpopular opinion but I don't think it's personal opinion when someone says cernd sucks, because many of these personal opinions have been backed up by actual facts.

    I've given him a try several times. If you're playing him as a pure caster, you're practically wasting a slot. He's not built for that - he can't use armor and decent weapons for a reason - he's a shifter, and no matter how versed you are in the game there's no way ANYONE here can form an argument that backs up the WW/GWW forms in their current state. They are just terrible, and that's what you're SUPPOSED to use since you are giving up quite a lot in exchange.
    DarkDoggQuartzsunset00Delvarian
  • zerckanzerckan Member Posts: 178
    Cerd is useful in SoA but ppl want an Op npc who cuts everything to pieces in seconds. His werewolf form sinks in ToB but his spells still ok.
    elminster
  • AcridSyphilisAcridSyphilis Member Posts: 129
    The problem with Cernd is that every single other character is just better than he is, either through better stats, classes, personalities, or combination of the above. He has a bad kit and a niche slot to be filled that other characters can easily cover. And although having a pleasant personality, he's hardly a memorable dude in your party and doesn't stand out. So even taking him for character interactions is not really all that interesting. If you never put him in your party, you don't miss anything really, and I think that's the tragedy with Cernd.
    JTMbooinyoureyesJaxsbudgieMoczo
  • shrekdjshrekdj Member Posts: 50
    Has any one even tried him from start to TOB?

    If one can't stop counting negatives u'll never find a true RPG challenge. It's all about tactics.
  • ElendarElendar Member Posts: 831
    I'm actually considering dropping Rasaad now that I've finished his quest line and picking up Cernd as a replacement and so that I have a second healer in my group. Since I already have a cleric and Jaheira died awhile back, Cernd is the only druid available.
  • InfiltratorInfiltrator Member Posts: 121
    shrekdj said:

    Has any one even tried him from start to TOB?

    If one can't stop counting negatives u'll never find a true RPG challenge. It's all about tactics.

    People have posted coherent, pragmatic responses why he's a bad character, by the numbers, and this is what you come up with? "It's all about tactics?" I don't even know why I'm quoting that, is it your be-all-end-all argument? This is your response against something you can't argue.

    Because if it's not, then tell me why Cernd does not in fact suck if he's supposed to trade items for shapeshifting, which, every (sane) player will agree sucks gargantuan werewolf balls.

    But it does not only suck by itself, it also disables you from casting the spells, which you would otherwise do with your naked, sub-par stat self.
  • TaevikTaevik Member Posts: 38
    Judging by this thread I suspect I'm in the minority of people who actually use this guy. Wow.
  • shrekdjshrekdj Member Posts: 50

    shrekdj said:

    Has any one even tried him from start to TOB?

    If one can't stop counting negatives u'll never find a true RPG challenge. It's all about tactics.

    People have posted coherent, pragmatic responses why he's a bad character, by the numbers, and this is what you come up with? "It's all about tactics?" I don't even know why I'm quoting that, is it your be-all-end-all argument? This is your response against something you can't argue.

    Because if it's not, then tell me why Cernd does not in fact suck if he's supposed to trade items for shapeshifting, which, every (sane) player will agree sucks gargantuan werewolf balls.

    But it does not only suck by itself, it also disables you from casting the spells, which you would otherwise do with your naked, sub-par stat self.
    Because of the knowledge you have established in advance that you don't really find much use or need of Cernd won't convince you a simple word "Tactics", since this involves forming a party to continue with usefulness of the NPC rather criticize it for known reasons or stats or predetermined hard fights later. Many players drop Cernd taking into account of harder challenges later in the game and go for more versatile NPC. It's a lot of fun to bring up the added difficulty to manage the party solely on his strong points but that is not taught or explained in words until you experiment yourself.
    Still if you find the negatives are much to bother about then continue with what's best for you on travels
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Cernd is not useless, it's just that there are others who do a better job than him. If I want a spellcaster, I'll stick with a mage and a cleric. Druid summon spells are outclass by mage summons (big skeleton, mordy sword, plantears). The only worthwhile offensive druid spells are insect plague and creeping doom, but are they worthwhile enough for a party member slot? On the healing side and buff side, cleric spells are much better. For melee, fighters with potent and ever-abundant weapons can output more dmg per round than any druidic form. Basically, a druid is a like a bard: a generalist that does an okay job on a little bit of everything. Unless one plays a druid for the sake of roleplaying, there are better specialist options out there.

  • magpiemagpie Member Posts: 79
    It's a shame druids are so underwhelming in general in BG. Their spell list is pretty meh, there's usually only one spell per level you'd even want to memorize, and shapeshifting is.. pretty lame. Icewind dale had much more interesting druids, both because of their spell lists and cool, effective shapes. In BG, Avenger is the only one that comes close.
    DarkDoggsunset00
  • SwordsNotWordsSwordsNotWords Member Posts: 147
    So with pretty much everyone complaining about how useless his (greater) werewolf form is, why hasn't the kit been fixed?
    sunset00booinyoureyes
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    edited November 2013
    He's not useless if you use EE keeper to change his class. I made him a cleric Druid once for giggles.

    Edit: cleric ranger I meant
    Post edited by ReadingRambo on
    DarkDoggbooinyoureyesAngulimala
  • MungriMungri Member Posts: 1,645
    edited November 2013
    Or if you change him to an Avenger or 9 berserker / druid. Even a Totemic Druid would probably be better, but I never tried one.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited November 2013
    I have finally found Cernd in my playthrough (I wasn't looking for him...) and decided to give the much maligned character a try.

    His basic stats leave much to be desired... but he is a decent caster in human form and in Greater Wolfwere form, he is a combat monster! What am I missing here? He seems pretty powerful to me... easily stronger than Anomen or my F/M Charname in 1 on 1 combat...

    Oh yeah I am playing BG 2 Vanilla and don't have mods installed. Just the 'Core Fix Pack'.
    FredB
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190

    I have finally found Cernd in my playthrough (I wasn't looking for him...) and decided to give the much maligned character a try.

    His basic stats leave much to be desired... but he is a decent caster in human form and in Greater Wolfwere form, he is a combat monster! What am I missing here? He seems pretty powerful to me... easily stronger than Anomen or my F/M Charname in 1 on 1 combat...

    Oh yeah I am playing BG 2 Vanilla and don't have mods installed. Just the 'Core Fix Pack'.

    You're not missing anything, really. The Greater Werewolf form doesn't scale particularly well later on, but having a single-class Druid makes a big difference on the magic front. People just love their hatred bandwagons, though. Once they start, they're impossible to stop.
    elminster
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    @Heindrich1988 - I think its already been said, but I think its because people don't utilize Cernd properly.

    I mean, people compare Jaheira and Cernd. Sure, its a fair comparison, if you're just comparing the fact that Jaheira and Cernd are both druids. In which case, Cernd wins hands down. He has better wisdom. He levels up faster. He gets more spells than Jaheira.

    However, people seem to want to point out the fact that Jaheira is a Multiclass. She is a Fighter/Druid. She can tank and do damage. That's her job. She is supposed to take additional hits. Cast Iron Skins on her, and she can take even more hits. Like I said, its her job to tank, and do damage.

    Hell, in my current playthrough, Jaheira is the back up healer/back up tank. However, in my current group, I just don't have any room to fit Cernd in.

    Give Jaheira Iron Skins, she can take a few more hits. Give Cernd Iron Skins, and then he can take some more hits now too.

    That being said, if you're going to play Cernd like you would Jaheira, you're going to have some issues.
    FredB
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    mylegbig said:


    In some ways, it's actually worse. Greater Werewolf no longer gives 25 con, meaning no regeneration.

    Looks like thats staying.
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    edited November 2013
    @Schneidend
    Ah yes... I guess the scaling could be an issue. Does his Greater Wolfwere form get stronger as he levels up? If not I guess by ToB Anomen and Charname will get increasingly better equipment and better spells, and Cernd is gonna be left behind. But at this stage, in SoA Chapter 6, I can fairly safely throw him into melee in Greater Wolfwere form and just watch the carnage. Actually he took down Faldorn with so much ease it was ridiculous.

    @SapphireIce101
    In the short time that I used Cernd, I guess the main problem is that he kinda lacks flexibility since he cannot repeatedly change into and out of Greater Wolfwere form in one day, so before every battle I have to decide if he is going to be a supporting caster or a melee fighter.

    Also to be honest, I've always used Jaheira badly. For stubborn roleplay reasons, I refuse to give her a club/scimitar and shield build, so she tends to just hang around at the back of battles casting Doom on enemies and Bless on allies, and occasionally pelting them with bullets. That said, her Fire Elemental is extremely useful at the start of SoA. If her Fire Elemental kills contributed to her own tally, her contribution to the party would seem a lot more impressive than it does currently. I guess I've always used her as a support character, even though I know she is capable of much more.

    booinyoureyes
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2013

    @Schneidend
    Ah yes... I guess the scaling could be an issue. Does his Greater Wolfwere form get stronger as he levels up? If not I guess by ToB Anomen and Charname will get increasingly better equipment and better spells, and Cernd is gonna be left behind. But at this stage, in SoA Chapter 6, I can fairly safely throw him into melee in Greater Wolfwere form and just watch the carnage. Actually he took down Faldorn with so much ease it was ridiculous.

    No other than his Thac0 and saving throws getting slightly better as he levels it won't improve at all. But I mean frankly with the exception of some of the really powerful enemies in SoA that can't be hit by +2 weapons his forms (particularly his greater werewolf given its low AC) are fine in SoA until he gets to level 15. At level 15 I just ditch it and focus on spell casting.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • IcecreamtubIcecreamtub Member Posts: 547
    @DarkDogg
    @GamingFreak

    My "Crappy Spellcaster" is referring to her viability at the start of the game compared to how more useful Cernd is. Jaheria is a Multi-Class, meaning Cernd naturally has more spells and casting capability. Better Wis Stat, as well. Meaning better Spell-Caster, especially for half the game. Otherwise, Jaheria is good, if you want to keep her in your party long enough to actually make her good. I've just never liked Jaheira, I'm not talking badly of her based on just this. My years of BG gaming and playing with Jaheria or Cernd, I've always found Cernd to be vastly better than his Co-Druid Jaheria. They're both casters, Jaheira's draw backs are that the classes are polar opposites. You can't cast a good spell in the midst of combat. For Jaheira to do anything, you have to constantly move her about the battle field, swapping from ally, to enemy, to random area to be able to cast a spell interruption free. Where as Cernd will normally be out of the way and not focused much, giving him a better chance at being useful when it comes to battles in BG2.

    It also depends on your party. If you've got, for example; Viconia, Aerie, Nalia, CHARNAME(For sake of argument, Charname is a Ranger), Cernd and then Edwin, then yes, Cernd is going to be ridiculously useless due to your entire party being easily squashed. Jaheria would naturally be better for this specific (yes bad party in general) party. Due to her having the Fighter Class.

    Honestly, it's all down to personal preference in the end. I'm just saying, Cernd isn't useless at all.

    If we're going to compare the two right off the bat, for the Druid Class, Cernd is easily the better of the two halves.
  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    @Icecreamtub so it's simple my opinion.
    What are cernd's advantagees?
    1. More spell slots then Jaheira.
    2. Lvl progression slots. (he gets lvl 5 spells earlier then Jaheira for example).
    3. Better attacking spells than Viconia or Anomnomnomen.

    Disadvantages.
    1. No armor.
    2. Weak as a kitten (Con, Str, Dex).
    3. No party buff spells like Viconia or Anomnomnomen.
    4. Can't be a tank like Jaheira and Viconia.
    5. Poor combat abilities.
    6. No romance option like Jaheira, Viconia, Anomnomnomen.
    7. Slot in party as a second mage or supporter (first spellcasters could be Edwin, Neera, Aerie etc)
    8. Shapeshifting isn't so good and powerfull... (bug?)
    9. Some attacking spells work only outdoors. It's a good point in BG1, but rather a disadvantage in BG2.

    What else?
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2013
    DarkDogg said:


    4. Can't be a tank like Jaheira and Viconia.

    He can't use armor which limits what ways he can operate but he can absolutely be a tank like Jaheira and Viconia. His Greater Werewolf form can easily get -11 AC (less with spells and items), 50 resist vs fire/lightning/cold, 40% magic resistance. That forms just not great offensively but defensively its fine.
    JuliusBorisovMarekk
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    edited November 2013
    DarkDogg said:


    Disadvantages.
    1. No armor.
    2. Weak as a kitten (Con, Str, Dex).
    3. No party buff spells like Viconia or Anomnomnomen.
    4. Can't be a tank like Jaheira and Viconia.
    5. Poor combat abilities.
    6. No romance option like Jaheira, Viconia, Anomnomnomen.
    7. Slot in party as a second mage or supporter (first spellcasters could be Edwin, Neera, Aerie etc)
    8. Shapeshifting isn't so good and powerfull... (bug?)
    9. Some attacking spells work only outdoors. It's a good point in BG1, but rather a disadvantage in BG2.

    1. Armor of Faith. Barkskin. Iron Skins.

    2. Consumables that increase his Con, Str, and Dex temporarily. For more permanent fix on strength, Girdle of Stone Giant Strength.

    3. He does get bless, and defensive harmony. Other than that he has no party buff spells.

    4. Shapeshifting for Defensive purposes like elminster said. Otherwise, tanking isn't really his thing.

    5. Depends on where you decided to put him in the party line up I guess.

    6. Why does he need to be romancible? Honestly, Jaheira's romance seems more like a disadvantage to Jaheira since her husband just died, and she is basically trying to get herself a piece of Bhaalspawn cake way too soon after finding her husband's dead body. Anomen's personality is bad to the point that some females don't even want to romance Anomen. As for Viconia, I really can't say anything about her romance as I've never tried it.

    7. Uhm, Cernd can do some support things. So, I think this is more of an advantage than a disadvantage.

    8. Like elminster said, defensively shapeshifting = good. Offensively = bad.

    9. Only Outdoor spell I found was Call Lightning. Which, I think most people use Summon Insect anyway.
    Post edited by SapphireIce101 on
    JuliusBorisovIcecreamtubCrevsDaak
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315


    3. He does get bless. Other than that he has no party buff spells.

    He does get Defensive Harmony.
    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    @elminster - Thank you! Editing my post to include that in there right now. XD
  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    elminster said:


    He can't use armor which limits what ways he can operate but he can absolutely be a tank like Jaheira and Viconia. His Greater Werewolf form can easily get -11 AC (less with spells and items), 50 resist vs fire/lightning/cold, 40% magic resistance. That forms just not great offensively but defensively its fine.

    Ah yeah I agree. Good comment. -1 disadvantage.
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