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A quick note about disagreement

DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
edited December 2013 in Site Resources
Okay, folks, time for a pow-wow. (For those of you who have not recruited or played through Hexxat's content yet, this post contains some major plot-spoilers; I recommend you skip the next several paragraphs.)
Hexxat, one of the new characters in BGII:EE, first appears in the Copper Coronet as a purple-haired woman with some... issues. Those issues are immediately apparent, so it comes as little surprise when she turns out not to be who she says she is.

The controversy that seems to be dominating these forums at the moment is whether or not Clara should remain an option as a permanent member of the party, or if she should remain dead. There have been a lot of discussions and debates about how she might be saved, what might be done with her character after the event, and how it might affect Hexxat's storyline or the game as a whole.
Okay, that's it for the spoilers. Suffice to say that there are compelling arguments on both sides of the issue, and that's not what this is about.

This is about the tone of that debate.

I've spoken proudly about the high level of discourse that populates these forums in the past; I think that as a community, you have all helped to create a welcoming environment for both new and old players, and even for people who don't enjoy the games at all. You've shown compassion for Android users, waiting more than a year for the opportunity to play the games on their tablets; you've shown understanding for international players, waiting months upon months for their needed translations; you've shown patience and optimism for the developers, working hard to bring patches in a timely manner despite a collection of roadblocks (both developmental and external) that would give the Doctor pause.

These last couple of weeks, however, have seen a dramatic shift for the worse. I see players who would otherwise have been friends--who have gotten along quite well in plenty of other discussions--tearing each other's eyes out over what ultimately amounts to a difference of opinion.

Part of it is my fault. I've been busier than usual lately, and I make no excuse for it. I should have stepped in much sooner. I thought that this community could manage itself responsibly, because up until now it has done just that, and admirably so.

But what's done is done. I'm still busier than usual, but this needs to be said, and because it's important I'm going to say it in bold:

This is a community of inclusion. We welcome all opinions that pertain to Baldur's Gate, so long as they are voiced respectfully and are not used to harm others. If you disagree with someone, we welcome that too, so long as you express your disagreement respectfully and without harming that person.

Ad hominem attacks are not acceptable forms of debate.

Hyperbole and assumptions about intention or motive are not acceptable forms of debate.

Anger and bigotry and hatred are not acceptable forms of debate.

If you cannot discuss an issue with someone without resorting to verbal violence, then do not discuss that issue with that person.

All of this is in the Site Rules, and has been for a year now. If you haven't read them, or if you haven't read them lately, I encourage you to do so now.


Over the last year this community has built a (well-earned) reputation for being a strong environment for everyone with an interest and enthusiasm for Baldur's Gate. Please, don't let that reputation falter just because you forgot how to keep your conversations civil.

So, before you start talking about something you know might be controversial (and Hexxat, as it turns out, is quite controversial), read this post, and think very carefully about what you intend to say and how you intend to say it.

If you understand and accept all of this, sign your (user)name in response to this post.

@Dee
Post edited by Dee on
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Comments

  • VarwulfVarwulf Member Posts: 564
    @Dee
    Varwulf (understands) :)
  • SapphireIce101SapphireIce101 Member Posts: 866
    SapphireIce101
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 2,669
    jastey
  • SylphSylph Member Posts: 210
    Signed,
    Sylph
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    edited December 2013
    Fair enough. I'll sign. And apologies to anyone's toes I may have stepped on, I shoot for "passionate" and occasionally wind up more in the "virulent" category.

    @Dee It would help, though, if you or another developer could shed some light on what the current state of Clara and DLC is. Whichever side or stance one has on the subject, it seems that just about everyone is interested in some form of DLC, and many of us are willing to pay for it. But all talk of DLC seems to be purely theoretical, and I have no idea what sort of ideas you all have in early development.

    As my main argument against Clara is that I'd prefer other content be made available through DLC rather than her, I'd prefer to spend my time positively discussing or making suggestions for alternative DLC, rather than continually shooting down the Clara folks.

    Signed,
    Madhax
  • forktheworldforktheworld Member Posts: 88
    ForkTheWorld
  • TsyrithTsyrith Member Posts: 180
    I imagine it's like a mental hospital where care is taken to emphasize the 3 months of progressive therapy, not the 3 murders that put you there.

    @Tsyrith
    [Deleted User]
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    RDarken

    Totally agreed!
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    elminster
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Kamigoroshi

    There were problematic disagreements concerning Hexxat? It surprises me that I didn't noticed such topics. At all. Guess it's true what people say: Ignorance is indeed bliss.
    TsyrithJairyannaJuliusBorisovAristillius
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Pantalion

    And yeah, I remember the whole... "Dorn" issue too. Hadn't realised things had got to that level.
    Dee said:

    Hyperbole and assumptions about intention or motive are not acceptable forms of debate.

    But I always use hyperbole!
  • DisgruntlerDisgruntler Member Posts: 100
    Madhax said:


    @Dee It would help, though, if you or another developer could shed some light on what the current state of Clara and DLC is. Whichever side or stance one has on the subject, it seems that just about everyone is interested in some form of DLC, and many of us are willing to pay for it. But all talk of DLC seems to be purely theoretical, and I have no idea what sort of ideas you all have in early development.

    I'd like to second this. Some kind of official anouncement to let the community know whether or not DLC is even planned, would be nice.

  • MoonsongMoonsong Member Posts: 36
    Signed
    Moonsong
  • AvenelAvenel Member Posts: 94
    Hear, hear.

    -Avenel
  • ZarakinthishZarakinthish Member Posts: 214
    I've tried to keep away from discussion about BG2EE as much as possible, but I have no problem affirming that I'll keep a level head here, as I do elsewhere online and in real life.

    Zarakinthish
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Although I care about neither Clara nor Hexxat and have not really entered into any discussion about them other than to say "if you want x then mod your own game to get x", I agree with your statements about remaining civil. On another forum I am the mod for the politics/current events sub-forum and I assure you that some discussions turn really ugly really quickly. I show up here to discuss the game and get away from the childish crap over there.

    Mathsorcerer
  • yaballayaballa Member Posts: 41
    I'll sign as well

    yaballa
  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 937
    Hugs and kisses from R'lyeh, wish you were here!

    Signed,
    LordRumfish

    P.S. - This makes 500 posts. ^_^

    P.P.S. - Yes, I am well aware this is a serious issue and I heartily agree with you Dee.
    jackjackbooinyoureyesFredjo
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    Signed,

    Flashburn
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    Drugar
    Drugar
    Drugar

    Triple signed.
    CrevsDaak[Deleted User]
  • YupImMadBroYupImMadBro Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 347
    edited December 2013
    YupImNotMadAboutThisTopicBro
    QuartzSpaceInvaderFredjo
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 402
    killerrabbit

    But having signed I want to say that:

    1. Even though I have put my 2 cents in on the side of a Clara DLC I never felt attacked by anyone who disagreed with me -- some of the hyperbolic statements actually made me laugh. Truth is, this seems to be a more cordial group than the original bioware foums -- I remember some of the rants about Jaheria and Anomen . . .

    2. I also worry a little bit that a prohibition on hyperbole can be used to prevent people from making critical comments.

    I have put up some some critical comments -- I wasn't happy that 50% of the new characters were evil, one so much so that I'll never play that part of the game. And I wasn't happy that the one new good character had a class that I never liked.

    Still, I decided to pony up the money because (1) I like the money-goes-to-workers model of beamdog, (2) this is still my favorite game, (3) the writing has been pretty good. I'll give the devs even more money if they create content I like. Still, I feel the need to communicate what I didn't like.

    So I'm saying: sure, lets tone it down but lets not shut it down.

    Obviously, everyone should remember that this is just a game not real life. And I'll do my best to remember that for @Dee and the others devs this *is* real life and the real people who make the game have real feelings. So signed.
  • AyiekieAyiekie Member Posts: 975
    Ayiekie. Thank you.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    jackjack signs.
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    The great Wolk sent his holy quatuor of paladin letters to form his mighty signature.

    Wolk
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