If we're talking about BG1 (especially vanilla version), it's Minsc easily IMO.
His admittedly impressive strength is simply outweighed by the fact that he's weak or limited in virtually every other aspect. He has both mediocre const and dexterity, which not only makes him more hittable but also more squishy - and arguably undermines his strength advantage by making him a liability to place at the front lines. At the same time, his mediocre dexterity also makes him just an average archer, so he's not much use at the back lines either. I know he can always be given the gauntlets of dexterity, but that means that you can't give them to one of several other equally deserving candidates who might be in your party. As a vanilla ranger, he levels up more slowly than a vanilla fighter would, and he can't master weapons. His berserk ability is uncontrollable, which severely limits (if not outright negates) where and when it can be used. On top of all this, he's also an annoying douchebag who will attack your party if you simply decline to help him clean up the fact that he failed miserably in his role as a bodyguard.
With the addition of ranger dual wielding in BG1:EE, Minsc is a slightly more versatile character, but he's still very heavily undermined by the issues stated above. During my current playthrough, he was killed by a single kobold arrow in the Nashkel mines - despite being at full health and wearing full plate. I was so annoyed that I never bothered to resurrect him, and eventually went to rescue Dynaheir (one of my favorite BG1 NPCs incidentally) without him.
The reason I differentiate between BG1 and BG2 "versions" of Minsc is that the BG2 version has higher dext and con, which makes for a huge improvement. But the problem here is that BG2 is so magic-oriented that a character who lacks useful spellcasting or innate abilities can still feel like something of a hindrance. In other words, I'd probably rather have a cleric/warrior like Anomen in my party than just a pure warrior like Minsc.
Had to vote Edwin, but Minsc would be a close second.
Sure, Edwin gets extra spells, but all that means if that you can adventure longer between rest breaks. Even though I try not to rest mid dungeon, I tend to hoard my spells and only use them when absolutely necessary, so I've never had a problem running out of spells mid-battle and thought, "Gosh, if only I had EDWIN in the party all my problems would be solved!"
Plus, I find him super annoying.
As for Minsc, he's also super annoying and just not that useful. Sure, he's got a great strength score, there are lots of ways for fighter-types to get an even better strength.
I admit I forgot about Minsc's stats. I remembered his strength was one of the highest (with only Shar-Teel being stronger without items), but I always thought he had ok dexterity and constitution. I've read quite often that he's not only a great frontliner, but also makes a decent ranged fighter with crossbows. In other words, I thought he was more or less the good aligned counterpart to Shar-Teel, with the trade of her higher strength for his higher con or something. They both have the "rage that can't be tamed" gimmick, too, so it made sense.
Seeing his actual stats now almost makes me want to change my vote. Imoen is at least really good at what she's supposed to be good at; thieving and ranged weapons. For BG1, it's definitely Minsc then, though Imoen is still my BG2 vote due to the combo of "no quest" and "behind in levels". Minsc brings at least banters and the storyline with Aerie to the table, though that's hardly a quest.
I knew Minsc would be a strong contender. People give (very legitimate) criticism that he is a flat character who is really a "one trick pony". He is comic relief. I love him (possibly my #1 favorite) but even I can acknowledge that all the criticism is warranted. I think he is a unique and strong enough example of good comic relief that I still like him, but other than a couple tragic events with Dynaheir's demise, there is not much to his character.
Yet many of the same people who criticize Minsc for being silly comic relief without much development also seem to love Edwin. I just don't get it. He is just as silly, if not more with all his mumbling to himself. Just like Minsc he remains the same person throughout the series, though even Minsc had to overcome some big tragedies with his witch (making him go from NG-->CG). Edwin has no such life-changing events.
As far as comic relief goes: he has a quest. He turns into a woman. That is his character development! What happens in his epilogue?
I think he's amusing and great, and is still one of my favorite NPCs and one of the most memorable personalities in the series. He's a perfect foil to Minsc. I think he's great, but I just don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread that many think. I would have much preferred Xzar and maybe Monty as returning characters than Edwin for evil parties, since they are the foils of Khalid and Jaheira, much as Edwin is the foil of Minsc. I actually prefer Xzar>Edwin on personality, and also he's not as overpowered.
TLDR: In my opinion, Edwin is awesome, but not as awesome as he thinks he is
PS: I voted based on roleplaying merits, not really judging him as a powerful caster (he is really good, but misses out on some defensive spells that are pretty important)
When people first pick up Dorn, they think "OMG 19 STRENGTH, THIS CHARA OP!" But... He really isn't. He doesn't have the HP to be a tank. His blackguard abilities are nice, but he can only use them so many times. He's always struck me more like a glass canon than a tank or solid fighter--very, you-better-kill-everything-else-before-they-kill-you-type character.
I agree that Edwin is very overrated too. All those spells, and he can't cast a simple identify? He's forced me to make a trip to the church one too many times.
I knew Minsc would be a strong contender. People give (very legitimate) criticism that he is a flat character who is really a "one trick pony". He is comic relief. I love him (possibly my #1 favorite) but even I can acknowledge that all the criticism is warranted. I think he is a unique and strong enough example of good comic relief that I still like him, but other than a couple tragic events with Dynaheir's demise, there is not much to his character.
Yet many of the same people who criticize Minsc for being silly comic relief without much development also seem to love Edwin. I just don't get it. He is just as silly, if not more with all his mumbling to himself. Just like Minsc he remains the same person throughout the series, though even Minsc had to overcome some big tragedies with his witch (making him go from NG-->CG). Edwin has no such life-changing events.
As far as comic relief goes: he has a quest. He turns into a woman. That is his character development! What happens in his epilogue?
I think he's amusing and great, and is still one of my favorite NPCs and one of the most memorable personalities in the series. He's a perfect foil to Minsc. I think he's great, but I just don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread that many think. I would have much preferred Xzar and maybe Monty as returning characters than Edwin for evil parties, since they are the foils of Khalid and Jaheira, much as Edwin is the foil of Minsc. I actually prefer Xzar>Edwin on personality, and also he's not as overpowered.
TLDR: In my opinion, Edwin is awesome, but not as awesome as he thinks he is
PS: I voted based on roleplaying merits, not really judging him as a powerful caster (he is really good, but misses out on some defensive spells that are pretty important)
Edwin is actually my #2 vote for most overrated, for many of the same reasons that you listed. He's also probably my #1 most disliked and least-used NPC in either BG game.
Although he is an undeniably powerful spellcaster, I don't agree that the most powerful is necessarily the best. Like you correctly pointed out, he misses out on some useful non-combat spells. The fact that he can't Identify items in the field is especially frustrating for me, and basically counterbalances (if not outweighs) his extra spells advantage IMO. On top of this, he has rather poor stats outside of his int. He's also the #1 most annoying and unlikable personality of all the BG NPCs IMO - he makes Anomen look like Mother Theresa by comparison. And he's associated with probably my two least favorite quests in the entire BG series - the first involves killing one of my favorite NPCs, the second is basically just for Ss & Gs.
Although most people will disagree, I prefer Dynaheir over Edwin. Although she doesn't enjoy Edwin's bonus spells advantage (who does? - outside of Baeloth I suppose), I feel that she has access to a better variety of spells and is also more well-rounded and versatile in other ways. She can cure poison as an innate ability (which is especially useful in BG1) and has slightly better stats, including rather high wisdom which gives her an extra lore bonus.
people say she is a good tank, but I don't see it. For divine casters I find both Yeslick in BG1 and Anomen in BG2 better tanking diviners.
I find her personality grating and her quests are too damn long making me think the original devs expected you to keep her for the entire time. And besides her quests and romance, there is nothing special about her.
Edwin is a very strong mage but he is single class. And let's face it : single class suck compared to dual/multi class (apart for some very specific kits or sorceror).
If you compare him to imoen, he has more spells but she covers the mandatory thieving skills. Jan Jansen is also much better.
As for the others : Minsc is a powerhouse in the first game (just give him the bracers of dex) but i have never seen anyone saying that he is good in the second (he sucks). Therefore, i can't say he is overrated since he is not even strong.
Keldorn/Dorn are great because of their kits : they both bring something to the party (mage killing) that no other character bring. Viconia is great because of her MR : you can pump her to 100 quite easily. But she is quite limited to being a buffer/debuffer.
people say she is a good tank, but I don't see it.
I don't see any character in either game as a good tank. The enemies go for whoever they damn well please and there's little way of controlling that. Hell I've seen Neera hold the enemies' attention for prolonged battles while the "tanks" run around trying to catch up...
Yeah I get the concept that the warriors are supposed to be on the frontlines taking a beating and dishing out melee damage but I'm continously puzzled by how exactly people achieve this. I equip my archers with backup melee weapons and have my casters use things like Blur and Mirror Image because if you're not indoors and can block enemy movement with corridors/doors to force the AI to reconsider their priorities they will be chewing on your party members regardless of their class and stats.
@Silverstar: There is - even if you don't count buffed NPCs - one obvious tank; Kagain. He has hitpoints to the point of regeneration, but medicore strength and dex. It just screams "tank" and barely anything else. Sure, with Hands of Takkok, he can be both a tank and a damage dealer - but with dex gauntlets, he's indestructable. Enemies will usually target the first party member they see, so haste the frontliners with spells, potions or boots and have them open the fight before the squishies/casters are in visual range. Once they get in range, throw in the crowd control from the distance and let the frontliners hack away. Most enemies should be focussed on them and only switch targets between them. My favorite frontliner is Montaron - he can run ahead and scout for traps at once, once they are disarmed, he opens with a backstab. Another option I like is having a cleric with sanctuary scout - also searching traps, though unable to disarm - and open with Hold Person or (Greater) Command. Anomen and Yeslick are good for this, but Branwen or Viconia also works.
I'm making a difference here, between 'overrated' and 'overpowered'. I don't know if it's the definition the thread creator was using, but it's how I see things.
To me, overrated means a character loved beyond their means to prove up to it. Like, Edwin, for instance, is loved for being overpowered: his extra spellslots are cheap/awesome/unfair/the best thing ever, but they are there. Can't really ignore them. If he still got the amount of praise and love he did while not having those same spellspots- still everyone wanting him, even taking him over Imoen/Nalia in their good parties- then I would call Edwin overrated. But to me, he's not overrated. He's just overpowered.
So to me, and overrated character is a character that isn't all that powerful, but still gets a lot of praise and love.
For me, that's Minsc.
Sure, he has good STR, but his CON/DEX aren't too impressive. I'd take Kivan over him in BG1, and Valygar's backstabs over him in BG2. The main thing, though, is- well, let me be honest. I find the man horribly annoying. I'm sure I enjoyed his MINSC AND BOO STAND READY and HAMSTERS AND RANGERS EVERYWHERE, REJOYCE! once- and probably only once, on my first playthrough with him. Since then, his act has run stale for me. He may be iconic, but I find him iconicly irritating. To me, he's a one note gimmick. This isn't a bad thing- almost all the characters but the four original romances (and Keldorn) are more gimmicks then well-written characters. But while, say, I enjoy Edwin's babbling to himself and threatening everyone under his breath, I find Minsc's braggart and over-the-top cluelessness trying. I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the fact that someone with a head wound and some obvious mental disorder is used as comic relief.
To me, Minsc is the biggest overrated character Bioware has ever made, and the fact that some people love him mystifies me.
I already made my dislike of Dorn well known in another thread and don't want to get into it here. Despite this, this was a hard choice as I had to decide what I should take overrated to mean. In terms of power or in terms of character? I certainly like Imoen in terms of character (though I can understand why others would not) and I find Edwin oddly obnoxious rather then funny. As for power, well, in all honesty I am rather horrid at judging who is more powerful then another. Most of these characters are potentially more powerful then charname but also potentially weaker then others. So to me it comes down to how you use them.
In the end I went for someone I simply disliked the most, though I'm surprised Kivan isn't on this list.
I don't think Kivan is overrated. He's often misrated - used as archer, despite being a good melee frontliner, too - and then people find Coran, who is an even better archer and suddenly Kivan seems "meh". He's neither over- nor underrated to me. His portrait could as well be a black rectangle with white letters "ARCHER" written over it; it's a bit misleading since he neither has the archer kit nor is he technically TEH BESTEST ARCHER in the game. His role is more versatile than he gets credit for, and in that regard, I'd put him up for votes in "underrated" rather than here.
This is probably a more delicate topic than the "most underrated NPC" poll, so I want to point out this is not about popularity of an NPC, it's about their (percieved) cheesy-broken-overpowered status.
oh... I fail
Sorry I was in a rush before and read quickly and just typed out some quick reasoning based on his personality and character as opposed to his class/stats/abilities.
I guess I'll try to make an argument against Edwin.
No True Sight kinda sucks As does inability to identify, though there are many ways around that. His dex blows. As do all his stats outside of intelligence and constitution (I'd rather have a mage that *doesn't* get hit than be able to take a couple more extra damage points) Can't wear Amulet of Power (his extra spells are great if you are short on spell casters, but if you have many it *may* be better to have your best caster wear that awesome item)
Yeah... but he's really good. I screwed up my vote, lol.
I always got the impression Kivan seemed an especially well loved character, along the lines of Minsc. Except instead of being seen as funny Kivan was seen as cool. I could easily be wrong about this and it might just be me projecting my own view on him on the fandom at large. Mind you, thats how I felt as a kid. These days I simply find it nice to have a character with me with as much a personal vendetta against the big bads as me.
That all being said, yes, you're right about him mechanically. His portrait sort of puts the player in mind of someone who'd use a bow and thats how I often used him. I think I even used EE keeper to change him to archer because somehow it seemed more fitting. That being said, next time I have him I'll give him a try as a melee fighter as well I think.
@booinyoureyes: The inability to wear necklaces is a big downside. I'd happily trade the extra spells for making him more flexible - permanent vocalize is really really useful on a NPC who is rendered utterly useless with one Silence spell, and something as simple as poison immunity is also worth gold for a pure caster. What good do all his spell slots do if he's silenced or fails casting due to poison? In the weapon department, mages don't have many "effect XYZ while equipped" options. The non-weapon slots are valuable for mages/sorcerers, and Edwin has one less than the others. It's a bigger downside than Minsc's blocked quick slot - items that go there don't have permanent effects and can be used from inventory if neccessary. Cloaks, helms, necklaces, rings and so on don't have that option.
Edwin - Sure he's powerful but you can do just fine without him too; and furthermore, as has been mentioned many people say "he's way more powerful than any player character can be!" ... my response to that would be, yes, you are right ... but I get bored with Edwin. Like I know it's probably just me, but pure mages kind of bore me a bit. I like to have someone who can actually fight a little, because I don't just sling spells around every two seconds and then proceed to sleep every in-game hour. And I'm not hating on the way other people play, I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to sleep, restoring spells that freaking often. So basically what I'm saying is, pure mages kind of bore me and thus I don't envy his spellcasting abilities for my CHARNAME. Anyway yes, as has been said, he's powerful for sure. His Dexterity certainly leaves something to be desired -- not the end of the world, though. Personally, I feel he actually deserves a lot of the good comments he gets, but not all. People go a bit overboard.
Keldorn - "often listed as a "must have" due to his Dispel Magic/class" Yep that bothers me. I enjoy him greatly as a character, as a Paladin, all that. But people literally say "bring him because of his kit abilities" and that is kind of sad.
Imoen - Imoen is just bad. As mentioned earlier, she was a last-minute shoe-in and it shows. I will also never forgive her for playing the switcheroo on who was supposed to die in Spellhold. Yoshimo is my #1 favorite Baldur's Gate II NPC, so I'm still bitter to this day. She's emo, lags behind in levels, and I REALLY dislike that in BGII they force you to dual-class her. Nothing against people doing that, but I would greatly prefer her as a pure thief because she just does not scream "mage" to me.
Haer'Dalis - Yeahhh people are a bit crazy about this guy. "OH MAN DA BLADE MAN, DA BLADE. OOH HLAS, WHICH DON'T EVEN MATTER UNTIL 2/3+ THROUGH THE SAGA. YEAHHH. OOH DID I MENTION 2 SHORT SWORD PIPS?? OHHHHH SHIT MAN."
No. Just no.
I love him as a character, I have a hard time not taking him in a lot of playthroughs as he brings a lot of color to the party IMO. But he is certainly not without his disadvantages; his low Con and mediocre HP rolls make me particularly sad. Of course all the cool kids will tell me to spam Stone Skin but Bards don't get a whole hell of a lot of those.
What I'm saying is, I personally feel like a lot of people like Haer'Dalis for the wrong reasons.
Minsc - "considered a "must have" by many, for reasons that are beyond me" Truer words have not been stated. Anyways as I said in the other thread, his stats are pretty bad and his personality gets un-funny rather fast for a lot of us. That said in BGII he is improved upon greatly with somewhat better stats, a much more enjoyable personality (he feels like he has your back as a friend, instead of his borderline Chaotic Neutral alignment in the first game), and stuff. I one time heard someone say that "Baldur's Gate would be nothing without Minsc." To put it bluntly, I'm not sure whether I wanted to strangle that person through the internet, shoot myself, or both.
Viconia - Viconia would actually most likely get my second vote. While I enjoy her personality and her romance and all that (which you need to play, @KidCarnival, because it reveals a LOT about her personality), she's actually not very powerful at all. Like I'm sorry, but I find her rather useless when it comes to the actual gameplay. Do I enjoy having her around regardless, absolutely, but people theory craft about her being strong and stuff and I just don't. fucking. get it.
Baeloth - 19 Intelligence on a Sorceror. How incredibly useless! Yes he has a lot of spell slots and magic resistance but his stats are totally godawful, which I feel is intentional to balance him somewhat. That said I probably enjoy him more than any of the other new NPCs as far as BG1:EE goes, because he is quirky and one-dimensional like all the rest of the characters and thus fits in with the cast.
Dorn- Bad Constitution. If you're playing with random HP die rolls (which I know a lot of crazy people do, props crazy people!), that sucks HARD. I tried to do the random HP die rolls, no reload run and all that, and my Bard ended up having more hit points than anyone, *especially* Dorn. Hahaha! He's definitely strong though, regardless.
Jan - Sadly he is the only progressing thief (Hexxat, who's that. Oh, a NPC mod you say?) so he kind of is the strongest character in BGII. OK, I'm being mildly sarcastic here, hahaha ... thankfully I play some form of Thief for probably 50% + of my playthroughs, so.
Dorn- Bad Constitution. If you're playing with random HP die rolls (which I know a lot of crazy people do, props crazy people!), that sucks HARD. I tried to do the random HP die rolls, no reload run and all that, and my Bard ended up having more hit points than anyone, *especially* Dorn. Hahaha! He's definitely strong though, regardless.
I'm one of those crazy people who plays core rules with random dice rolls. Dorn has so few hit-points in BG2, it's sad. I love the evil bastard, I do, but...damn.
Don't tank with Dorn then. It's simple as that. Really.
How else would you play him if not as a tank, though? When you first get him in BG1, he doesn't even have any points in any ranged weapon, and it would take him until level 6 just to specialize in one. On top of that, if you restrict his use as a tank, it undermines the whole point of having 19 str and a magical 2-handed sword. It's basically the same dilemma that you run in with Minsc - although Dorn at least has some useful innate abilities, these would only go so far on their own.
If we're talking about BG1 (especially vanilla version), it's Minsc easily IMO.
His admittedly impressive strength is simply outweighed by the fact that he's weak or limited in virtually every other aspect. He has both mediocre strength and dexterity, which not only makes him more hittable but also more squishy - and arguably undermines his strength advantage by making him a liability to place at the front lines.
Might want to change that so that it says he has mediocre dexterity and constitution.
Baeloth - 19 Intelligence on a Sorceror. How incredibly useless! Yes he has a lot of spell slots and magic resistance but his stats are totally godawful
Err what? I mean his dexterity doesn't give him any bonuses but access to Shield and Mirror Images handles that. Beyond that his stats are basically perfect for a sorcerer.
If we're talking about BG1 (especially vanilla version), it's Minsc easily IMO.
His admittedly impressive strength is simply outweighed by the fact that he's weak or limited in virtually every other aspect. He has both mediocre strength and dexterity, which not only makes him more hittable but also more squishy - and arguably undermines his strength advantage by making him a liability to place at the front lines.
Might want to change that so that it says he has mediocre dexterity and constitution.
There are much more interesting thieves in BG1 - Safana, who can also dual to mage, Shar-Teel when dualed, Montaron, of course, and last but not least, Tiax, who has the class combo I'd find more useful in the canon party: thief/cleric.
Safana requires a tome in order to be dualed though, and the tome isn't available until relatively late in the game IIRC. I would also argue that Safana is one of the weaker and most redundant NPCs in BG1, and interesting almost exclusively for her sultry voice, which quickly wears out its novelty.
The problem with the other thieves you listed is that they're all evil and won't last too long in good-oriented parties. Plus Tiax, along with Alora, Skie, and even Coran, come too late in the game to get their skills distributed appropriately and thus be used effectively as the sole thief.
If you're not playing as an evil party and/or a thief charname, Imoen is still far and away the most ideal choice for a thief IMO. Throw in the fact that she not only can dual class at level 2 if you want (though I almost always prefer to keep her as a thief), but she also has sizable charisma and lore bonuses if you're ever in need of either of those.
Edwin - Like @Quartz, I don't envy his many spells. If I play an arcane caster, it's usually a bard or a multiclass. I too like charnames to be more versatile and have something better than throwing stones to do in random travel encounters. With a support caster charname, I don't miss any spells due to the forbidden school. The only time the lack of Identify on Edwin even shows is the first few chapters of BG1; after that, I either have high enough lore on charname or I have Eldoth for that. I'm glad there is a pure mage to cover all other/high level spell needs. It just feels better, roleplay-wise, to say "stand back, wizard, let our swords deal with this bunch of bandits" than charname saying "uh guys, someone is shooting arrows at me HALP PLZ?!"
Keldorn - I like Keldorn for his personality and quest. I'm no fan of paladins in general. Keldorn manages to be one and get around all the things I usually find annoying about them. Ajantis, for example, just makes no sense to me with his over the top "GHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PURGE ALL EVIL!" I don't see why he would completely freak out and attack Kagain. Imagine walking through Beregost and a group of commoners watches you walk by. One of them says "hey, if you're really worried about your sister, why not hire someone to see if she made it safely to Nashkel? There's that guy Kagain; reliable mercenary. He found my brother after he stumbled into the wilderness after a wild night of drinking in Feldepost Inn. Oh, look, over there, that's Kagain! Yes, the dwarf who just gets his skull bashed in by the crazed paladin! Your sister? Oh. Umm. Well, we could go look after her ourselves later?" But back to Keldorn. Keldorn doesn't do that, he's a well written character. Since I usually play evil, I rarely have him for very long. Just do his quest and let him leave with his family. I doubt his kit and abilities are too essential - I don't miss any of that after he left and do just fine without a paladin. Certainly overrated, but more the class/kit than Keldorn himself.
Haer'Dalis. Certainly a very flamboyant, flavorful NPC. It's not my cup of tea though; I prefer the quiet, brooding type like Valygar, and for comic relief, I rather have utter madness a la Xzar or Tiax. But that's a matter of taste; generally, Haer'Dalis has a good, interesting personality and gets credit for the only NPC-NPC romance, something that makes the party feel more authentic. It's a bit much suspension of disbelief if every second person I come across tries to hit on my 8 charisma preaching hobo Priest of Talos, who is as charming and attractive as the crazy guy with the "REPENT, SINNER!" sign standing on Times Square, yet no-one goes for any of the - in comparison - vastly more attractive party members. Compared to charname, Korgan is George Clooney. Haer'Dalis is the only NPC to not idly watch every maiden sign up for a romance with the lovechild of Ed Gein and Herbert West. Now, mechanically... I don't like the Blade kit. It feels so unbardy to me and plays like a fighter/mage. I'd actually like a vanilla bard much better in BG2, or a jester (for the sole sake of getting full lore/pickpockets, and therefore being "bardy". Recruitable Garrick instead of Garrick cameo, anyone?). HLAs make every bard, Blade, other kit, vanilla, really powerful, so that's not unique to Haer'Dalis. He's just the only bard (except potentially charname), no-one to compare him to.
Viconia - already said what I don't get about her. I'm not particularly interested in the romance (any) and I never accused her of being badly written anyway. People just seem to read way more into her than she is, or interpret her in a rather funny way. I've read about the romances and how "far" they go, and I've seen a bit of the Dorn (with Eldoth Charname, it wasn't pretty) and Anomen (with my Brienne of Tarth lady blackguard, it was glorious) romances and if Viconia's is anything like these, she simply isn't the walking BDSM dungeon people seem to see in her.
Baeloth - He's pretty damn powerful. That comes with being a sorcerer and a drow. His stats don't matter at all. It sure feels OP to have him in a party with a mage, no matter which one. But he's fine as primary caster with a bard or a mage/something dual/multi for support.
Dorn - felt pretty OP with him as damage dealer, and Brienne the blackguard as tank, but that comes with 2 high strength frontliners. His stats are fine. Something had to balance his illegal race/class combo and strength, and con is the go to stat for such characters. Shar-Teel: high strength, low con. Minsc: high strength, low con. From that, he integrates well with the BG1 NPCs. He took over Shar-Teel's position as the 2HS wielding, highest strength in the game, slaughter-happy, evil frontliner, but he didn't push her out of the race for party slots. She compliments him nicely as dualed thief now, and in BG2, he adds to the classic formation "orc smash, dwarf get smashed" with Korgan. Dorn is definitely powerful, but he's still balanced. From his stats as well as from party conflicts (props to Neera here, too), as he can't be combined with other very strong NPCs (Anomen, Keldorn; and Neera does the same with Edwin).
Jan - he has a ridicolously useful multiclass, neat personal items, tons of banters and a quest that rivals Keldorn's writing and character depth. Though I rarely take Jan - being a dedicated evil player, I'm fairly used to play a thief and take Edwin as mage - I would call him "the perfect NPC". He has all that is desirable in a NPC - no alignment conflicts, good writing, layered personality, interesting quest, useful class, unique items that remain relevant for a long time, balanced stats and slower level progression as multiclass. Jan isn't overrated, he's just right. In a perfect world, every NPC would be a bit more like Jan.
@SharGuidesMyHand Kagain does the tanking, Dorn does the damage-dealing (and in BG1 he's OP at that). Just avoid Dorn getting targeted - two handed swords have greater range than axes, and as such, Kagain can tank, and Dorn attack practically standing behind the dwarf.
In short, Dorn is a kind of a glass cannon. Just use him well.
@SharGuidesMyHand Safana also has her charm ability, which can come in handy. Imoen is much easier for good aligned parties, agreed about that. I just see many evil parties keeping her, too, and for evil (or neutral), there are two (in my opinion vastly superior) alternatives with Monty and Shar-Teel, both are fighter/thieves who still cover all thieving needs. You can get Safana as early as level 2 (invisibility potions to do her quest), so her skill distribution isn't neccessarily a problem. The late dualing option, yes, but there are Dynaheir, Neera and Edwin as early mages (Garrick, if you count him in with wands), then Xan - for a balanced party, it's not neccessary to turn either Imoen or Safana into a mage at all. It's just a nice option to have and to keep thieves more relevant and versatile in late game.
An overlooked option: Branwen can dual to thief with the dex tome. Just throwing that in here. Never tried it, no idea if it's any good.
I think there is something that appeals to some people (mostly adolescent males): an edgy, powerful (esp. born to power), bad-but-not-wholly-evil sort of character. Think Wolverine from the X-Men comic book. When drow were first introduced they captured the imagination of munchkins everywhere. Add sex appeal and you have what makes Viconia popular.
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His admittedly impressive strength is simply outweighed by the fact that he's weak or limited in virtually every other aspect. He has both mediocre const and dexterity, which not only makes him more hittable but also more squishy - and arguably undermines his strength advantage by making him a liability to place at the front lines. At the same time, his mediocre dexterity also makes him just an average archer, so he's not much use at the back lines either. I know he can always be given the gauntlets of dexterity, but that means that you can't give them to one of several other equally deserving candidates who might be in your party. As a vanilla ranger, he levels up more slowly than a vanilla fighter would, and he can't master weapons. His berserk ability is uncontrollable, which severely limits (if not outright negates) where and when it can be used. On top of all this, he's also an annoying douchebag who will attack your party if you simply decline to help him clean up the fact that he failed miserably in his role as a bodyguard.
With the addition of ranger dual wielding in BG1:EE, Minsc is a slightly more versatile character, but he's still very heavily undermined by the issues stated above. During my current playthrough, he was killed by a single kobold arrow in the Nashkel mines - despite being at full health and wearing full plate. I was so annoyed that I never bothered to resurrect him, and eventually went to rescue Dynaheir (one of my favorite BG1 NPCs incidentally) without him.
The reason I differentiate between BG1 and BG2 "versions" of Minsc is that the BG2 version has higher dext and con, which makes for a huge improvement. But the problem here is that BG2 is so magic-oriented that a character who lacks useful spellcasting or innate abilities can still feel like something of a hindrance. In other words, I'd probably rather have a cleric/warrior like Anomen in my party than just a pure warrior like Minsc.
Sure, Edwin gets extra spells, but all that means if that you can adventure longer between rest breaks. Even though I try not to rest mid dungeon, I tend to hoard my spells and only use them when absolutely necessary, so I've never had a problem running out of spells mid-battle and thought, "Gosh, if only I had EDWIN in the party all my problems would be solved!"
Plus, I find him super annoying.
As for Minsc, he's also super annoying and just not that useful. Sure, he's got a great strength score, there are lots of ways for fighter-types to get an even better strength.
-Blue
Seeing his actual stats now almost makes me want to change my vote. Imoen is at least really good at what she's supposed to be good at; thieving and ranged weapons. For BG1, it's definitely Minsc then, though Imoen is still my BG2 vote due to the combo of "no quest" and "behind in levels". Minsc brings at least banters and the storyline with Aerie to the table, though that's hardly a quest.
I knew Minsc would be a strong contender. People give (very legitimate) criticism that he is a flat character who is really a "one trick pony". He is comic relief. I love him (possibly my #1 favorite) but even I can acknowledge that all the criticism is warranted. I think he is a unique and strong enough example of good comic relief that I still like him, but other than a couple tragic events with Dynaheir's demise, there is not much to his character.
Yet many of the same people who criticize Minsc for being silly comic relief without much development also seem to love Edwin. I just don't get it. He is just as silly, if not more with all his mumbling to himself. Just like Minsc he remains the same person throughout the series, though even Minsc had to overcome some big tragedies with his witch (making him go from NG-->CG). Edwin has no such life-changing events.
As far as comic relief goes: he has a quest. He turns into a woman. That is his character development!
What happens in his epilogue?
I think he's amusing and great, and is still one of my favorite NPCs and one of the most memorable personalities in the series. He's a perfect foil to Minsc. I think he's great, but I just don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread that many think. I would have much preferred Xzar and maybe Monty as returning characters than Edwin for evil parties, since they are the foils of Khalid and Jaheira, much as Edwin is the foil of Minsc. I actually prefer Xzar>Edwin on personality, and also he's not as overpowered.
TLDR: In my opinion, Edwin is awesome, but not as awesome as he thinks he is
PS: I voted based on roleplaying merits, not really judging him as a powerful caster (he is really good, but misses out on some defensive spells that are pretty important)
I agree that Edwin is very overrated too. All those spells, and he can't cast a simple identify? He's forced me to make a trip to the church one too many times.
Although he is an undeniably powerful spellcaster, I don't agree that the most powerful is necessarily the best. Like you correctly pointed out, he misses out on some useful non-combat spells. The fact that he can't Identify items in the field is especially frustrating for me, and basically counterbalances (if not outweighs) his extra spells advantage IMO. On top of this, he has rather poor stats outside of his int. He's also the #1 most annoying and unlikable personality of all the BG NPCs IMO - he makes Anomen look like Mother Theresa by comparison. And he's associated with probably my two least favorite quests in the entire BG series - the first involves killing one of my favorite NPCs, the second is basically just for Ss & Gs.
Although most people will disagree, I prefer Dynaheir over Edwin. Although she doesn't enjoy Edwin's bonus spells advantage (who does? - outside of Baeloth I suppose), I feel that she has access to a better variety of spells and is also more well-rounded and versatile in other ways. She can cure poison as an innate ability (which is especially useful in BG1) and has slightly better stats, including rather high wisdom which gives her an extra lore bonus.
people say she is a good tank, but I don't see it. For divine casters I find both Yeslick in BG1 and Anomen in BG2 better tanking diviners.
I find her personality grating and her quests are too damn long making me think the original devs expected you to keep her for the entire time. And besides her quests and romance, there is nothing special about her.
If you compare him to imoen, he has more spells but she covers the mandatory thieving skills. Jan Jansen is also much better.
As for the others : Minsc is a powerhouse in the first game (just give him the bracers of dex) but i have never seen anyone saying that he is good in the second (he sucks). Therefore, i can't say he is overrated since he is not even strong.
Keldorn/Dorn are great because of their kits : they both bring something to the party (mage killing) that no other character bring.
Viconia is great because of her MR : you can pump her to 100 quite easily. But she is quite limited to being a buffer/debuffer.
Yeah I get the concept that the warriors are supposed to be on the frontlines taking a beating and dishing out melee damage but I'm continously puzzled by how exactly people achieve this. I equip my archers with backup melee weapons and have my casters use things like Blur and Mirror Image because if you're not indoors and can block enemy movement with corridors/doors to force the AI to reconsider their priorities they will be chewing on your party members regardless of their class and stats.
Enemies will usually target the first party member they see, so haste the frontliners with spells, potions or boots and have them open the fight before the squishies/casters are in visual range. Once they get in range, throw in the crowd control from the distance and let the frontliners hack away. Most enemies should be focussed on them and only switch targets between them.
My favorite frontliner is Montaron - he can run ahead and scout for traps at once, once they are disarmed, he opens with a backstab. Another option I like is having a cleric with sanctuary scout - also searching traps, though unable to disarm - and open with Hold Person or (Greater) Command. Anomen and Yeslick are good for this, but Branwen or Viconia also works.
To me, overrated means a character loved beyond their means to prove up to it. Like, Edwin, for instance, is loved for being overpowered: his extra spellslots are cheap/awesome/unfair/the best thing ever, but they are there. Can't really ignore them. If he still got the amount of praise and love he did while not having those same spellspots- still everyone wanting him, even taking him over Imoen/Nalia in their good parties- then I would call Edwin overrated. But to me, he's not overrated. He's just overpowered.
So to me, and overrated character is a character that isn't all that powerful, but still gets a lot of praise and love.
For me, that's Minsc.
Sure, he has good STR, but his CON/DEX aren't too impressive. I'd take Kivan over him in BG1, and Valygar's backstabs over him in BG2. The main thing, though, is- well, let me be honest. I find the man horribly annoying. I'm sure I enjoyed his MINSC AND BOO STAND READY and HAMSTERS AND RANGERS EVERYWHERE, REJOYCE! once- and probably only once, on my first playthrough with him. Since then, his act has run stale for me. He may be iconic, but I find him iconicly irritating. To me, he's a one note gimmick. This isn't a bad thing- almost all the characters but the four original romances (and Keldorn) are more gimmicks then well-written characters. But while, say, I enjoy Edwin's babbling to himself and threatening everyone under his breath, I find Minsc's braggart and over-the-top cluelessness trying. I'm also a bit uncomfortable with the fact that someone with a head wound and some obvious mental disorder is used as comic relief.
To me, Minsc is the biggest overrated character Bioware has ever made, and the fact that some people love him mystifies me.
In the end I went for someone I simply disliked the most, though I'm surprised Kivan isn't on this list.
I fail
Sorry I was in a rush before and read quickly and just typed out some quick reasoning based on his personality and character as opposed to his class/stats/abilities.
I guess I'll try to make an argument against Edwin.
No True Sight kinda sucks
As does inability to identify, though there are many ways around that.
His dex blows. As do all his stats outside of intelligence and constitution (I'd rather have a mage that *doesn't* get hit than be able to take a couple more extra damage points)
Can't wear Amulet of Power (his extra spells are great if you are short on spell casters, but if you have many it *may* be better to have your best caster wear that awesome item)
Yeah... but he's really good. I screwed up my vote, lol.
That all being said, yes, you're right about him mechanically. His portrait sort of puts the player in mind of someone who'd use a bow and thats how I often used him. I think I even used EE keeper to change him to archer because somehow it seemed more fitting. That being said, next time I have him I'll give him a try as a melee fighter as well I think.
Keldorn - "often listed as a "must have" due to his Dispel Magic/class" Yep that bothers me. I enjoy him greatly as a character, as a Paladin, all that. But people literally say "bring him because of his kit abilities" and that is kind of sad.
Imoen - Imoen is just bad. As mentioned earlier, she was a last-minute shoe-in and it shows. I will also never forgive her for playing the switcheroo on who was supposed to die in Spellhold. Yoshimo is my #1 favorite Baldur's Gate II NPC, so I'm still bitter to this day. She's emo, lags behind in levels, and I REALLY dislike that in BGII they force you to dual-class her. Nothing against people doing that, but I would greatly prefer her as a pure thief because she just does not scream "mage" to me.
Haer'Dalis - Yeahhh people are a bit crazy about this guy. "OH MAN DA BLADE MAN, DA BLADE. OOH HLAS, WHICH DON'T EVEN MATTER UNTIL 2/3+ THROUGH THE SAGA. YEAHHH. OOH DID I MENTION 2 SHORT SWORD PIPS?? OHHHHH SHIT MAN."
No. Just no.
I love him as a character, I have a hard time not taking him in a lot of playthroughs as he brings a lot of color to the party IMO. But he is certainly not without his disadvantages; his low Con and mediocre HP rolls make me particularly sad. Of course all the cool kids will tell me to spam Stone Skin but Bards don't get a whole hell of a lot of those.
What I'm saying is, I personally feel like a lot of people like Haer'Dalis for the wrong reasons.
Minsc - "considered a "must have" by many, for reasons that are beyond me" Truer words have not been stated. Anyways as I said in the other thread, his stats are pretty bad and his personality gets un-funny rather fast for a lot of us. That said in BGII he is improved upon greatly with somewhat better stats, a much more enjoyable personality (he feels like he has your back as a friend, instead of his borderline Chaotic Neutral alignment in the first game), and stuff. I one time heard someone say that "Baldur's Gate would be nothing without Minsc." To put it bluntly, I'm not sure whether I wanted to strangle that person through the internet, shoot myself, or both.
Viconia - Viconia would actually most likely get my second vote. While I enjoy her personality and her romance and all that (which you need to play, @KidCarnival, because it reveals a LOT about her personality), she's actually not very powerful at all. Like I'm sorry, but I find her rather useless when it comes to the actual gameplay. Do I enjoy having her around regardless, absolutely, but people theory craft about her being strong and stuff and I just don't. fucking. get it.
Baeloth - 19 Intelligence on a Sorceror. How incredibly useless! Yes he has a lot of spell slots and magic resistance but his stats are totally godawful, which I feel is intentional to balance him somewhat. That said I probably enjoy him more than any of the other new NPCs as far as BG1:EE goes, because he is quirky and one-dimensional like all the rest of the characters and thus fits in with the cast.
Dorn- Bad Constitution. If you're playing with random HP die rolls (which I know a lot of crazy people do, props crazy people!), that sucks HARD. I tried to do the random HP die rolls, no reload run and all that, and my Bard ended up having more hit points than anyone, *especially* Dorn. Hahaha! He's definitely strong though, regardless.
Jan - Sadly he is the only progressing thief (Hexxat, who's that. Oh, a NPC mod you say?) so he kind of is the strongest character in BGII. OK, I'm being mildly sarcastic here, hahaha ... thankfully I play some form of Thief for probably 50% + of my playthroughs, so.
Character-wise, he's over the top
The problem with the other thieves you listed is that they're all evil and won't last too long in good-oriented parties. Plus Tiax, along with Alora, Skie, and even Coran, come too late in the game to get their skills distributed appropriately and thus be used effectively as the sole thief.
If you're not playing as an evil party and/or a thief charname, Imoen is still far and away the most ideal choice for a thief IMO. Throw in the fact that she not only can dual class at level 2 if you want (though I almost always prefer to keep her as a thief), but she also has sizable charisma and lore bonuses if you're ever in need of either of those.
Keldorn - I like Keldorn for his personality and quest. I'm no fan of paladins in general. Keldorn manages to be one and get around all the things I usually find annoying about them. Ajantis, for example, just makes no sense to me with his over the top "GHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PURGE ALL EVIL!" I don't see why he would completely freak out and attack Kagain. Imagine walking through Beregost and a group of commoners watches you walk by. One of them says "hey, if you're really worried about your sister, why not hire someone to see if she made it safely to Nashkel? There's that guy Kagain; reliable mercenary. He found my brother after he stumbled into the wilderness after a wild night of drinking in Feldepost Inn. Oh, look, over there, that's Kagain! Yes, the dwarf who just gets his skull bashed in by the crazed paladin! Your sister? Oh. Umm. Well, we could go look after her ourselves later?"
But back to Keldorn. Keldorn doesn't do that, he's a well written character. Since I usually play evil, I rarely have him for very long. Just do his quest and let him leave with his family. I doubt his kit and abilities are too essential - I don't miss any of that after he left and do just fine without a paladin. Certainly overrated, but more the class/kit than Keldorn himself.
Haer'Dalis. Certainly a very flamboyant, flavorful NPC. It's not my cup of tea though; I prefer the quiet, brooding type like Valygar, and for comic relief, I rather have utter madness a la Xzar or Tiax. But that's a matter of taste; generally, Haer'Dalis has a good, interesting personality and gets credit for the only NPC-NPC romance, something that makes the party feel more authentic. It's a bit much suspension of disbelief if every second person I come across tries to hit on my 8 charisma preaching hobo Priest of Talos, who is as charming and attractive as the crazy guy with the "REPENT, SINNER!" sign standing on Times Square, yet no-one goes for any of the - in comparison - vastly more attractive party members. Compared to charname, Korgan is George Clooney. Haer'Dalis is the only NPC to not idly watch every maiden sign up for a romance with the lovechild of Ed Gein and Herbert West.
Now, mechanically... I don't like the Blade kit. It feels so unbardy to me and plays like a fighter/mage. I'd actually like a vanilla bard much better in BG2, or a jester (for the sole sake of getting full lore/pickpockets, and therefore being "bardy". Recruitable Garrick instead of Garrick cameo, anyone?). HLAs make every bard, Blade, other kit, vanilla, really powerful, so that's not unique to Haer'Dalis. He's just the only bard (except potentially charname), no-one to compare him to.
Viconia - already said what I don't get about her. I'm not particularly interested in the romance (any) and I never accused her of being badly written anyway. People just seem to read way more into her than she is, or interpret her in a rather funny way. I've read about the romances and how "far" they go, and I've seen a bit of the Dorn (with Eldoth Charname, it wasn't pretty) and Anomen (with my Brienne of Tarth lady blackguard, it was glorious) romances and if Viconia's is anything like these, she simply isn't the walking BDSM dungeon people seem to see in her.
Baeloth - He's pretty damn powerful. That comes with being a sorcerer and a drow. His stats don't matter at all. It sure feels OP to have him in a party with a mage, no matter which one. But he's fine as primary caster with a bard or a mage/something dual/multi for support.
Dorn - felt pretty OP with him as damage dealer, and Brienne the blackguard as tank, but that comes with 2 high strength frontliners. His stats are fine. Something had to balance his illegal race/class combo and strength, and con is the go to stat for such characters. Shar-Teel: high strength, low con. Minsc: high strength, low con. From that, he integrates well with the BG1 NPCs. He took over Shar-Teel's position as the 2HS wielding, highest strength in the game, slaughter-happy, evil frontliner, but he didn't push her out of the race for party slots. She compliments him nicely as dualed thief now, and in BG2, he adds to the classic formation "orc smash, dwarf get smashed" with Korgan. Dorn is definitely powerful, but he's still balanced. From his stats as well as from party conflicts (props to Neera here, too), as he can't be combined with other very strong NPCs (Anomen, Keldorn; and Neera does the same with Edwin).
Jan - he has a ridicolously useful multiclass, neat personal items, tons of banters and a quest that rivals Keldorn's writing and character depth. Though I rarely take Jan - being a dedicated evil player, I'm fairly used to play a thief and take Edwin as mage - I would call him "the perfect NPC". He has all that is desirable in a NPC - no alignment conflicts, good writing, layered personality, interesting quest, useful class, unique items that remain relevant for a long time, balanced stats and slower level progression as multiclass. Jan isn't overrated, he's just right. In a perfect world, every NPC would be a bit more like Jan.
Kagain does the tanking, Dorn does the damage-dealing (and in BG1 he's OP at that). Just avoid Dorn getting targeted - two handed swords have greater range than axes, and as such, Kagain can tank, and Dorn attack practically standing behind the dwarf.
In short, Dorn is a kind of a glass cannon. Just use him well.
You can get Safana as early as level 2 (invisibility potions to do her quest), so her skill distribution isn't neccessarily a problem. The late dualing option, yes, but there are Dynaheir, Neera and Edwin as early mages (Garrick, if you count him in with wands), then Xan - for a balanced party, it's not neccessary to turn either Imoen or Safana into a mage at all. It's just a nice option to have and to keep thieves more relevant and versatile in late game.
An overlooked option: Branwen can dual to thief with the dex tome. Just throwing that in here. Never tried it, no idea if it's any good.
and purple vagina