Anomen fits my lady blackguard (for the lack of a neutral paladin) in a Brienne of Tarth and Jaime Lannister way. She's basically all "yeah yeah, mighty warrior, I'm totally listening to you" and then makes him a better person. My jester reacts in a similar way and endures Anomen because he's from a noble family, and the jester likes to be seen with important people. He's also "yeah yeah, I'm listening, whatever", except he doesn't make Anomen a better person.
Valygar being quiet and brooding and hating magic is plain perfect. Like I said in other topics, my jester is very very medicore. He hates people - especially mages - who are better than him. Valygar shares the mage hate and doesn't try in any way to brag or grab attention. As a stalker, he also kills silently or from the distance and the jester can take credit for it - Valygar wouldn't speak up to correct him because he has no real interest in being a hero; he just wants to get stuff done.
I like Viconia, I think it's nice to have a somewhat reserved and sensible evil npc in your party like her or Kagain in your party, as opposed to the raving lunatics, psychopaths and megalomaniacs that most of the BG I+II evil party members are. her stats are decent, I find her sarcastic quips to be rather enjoyable, and particularly in BG II-you don't exactly have much options if you want to run an evil party anyways.
What I *Do* think is overrated is her Romance. I don't like it-it seems almost like taming of the shrew at times. She's much more interesting unromanced IMO.
game mechanic-wise, I'd have to say Nalia/Imoen. If I wanted a thief, I'd rather take Yoshimo, if I wanted a mage, I'd take Edwin. Perhaps it's just me, but I can't really get the wizard/thief classes to synergize very well.
well, poor Cernd.. if there should be an award for the most f*ùù*^$ù*ed down NPC, he could certainly have gotten it^^ I just wonder really why the EE did not buff him a little though.. and we know all in which areas it would have been really useful for him; greater werew. form real stats, greater HLA transform real stats too, even basic initial stats (even for a basic druid!), etc.. ! But well, i guess i crashed on the wrong thread here... but that one made me smile a little in comparison though.
Just for the record & participation, i picked Dorn, just for the huge ultra heavy first combats impressions he never miss to give (even if you are distracted!^)... if there is one with sick starting stats and innate abilities, could be him (in comparison, poor lad Cernd, you can go back to your grove, no one cared again for you apparently hehe; YOU did not need to be fixed in comparison, go with that, druid. *)) ) .. well, Dorn 'overrated' in the way, over obviously sponsored at least.. he is just an evil blackguard after all.. just a (non) man like others anyway.. and can be single handedly defeated too.. )
just kidding.. though.. some truths here too... i would have loved to see a little 'beefed up' EE Cernd (in comparison again with all those 'overrated' ones..), sure.. */
This was a tough call between Minsc and Haer'Dalis. I have seen a good deal of praise aimed in Minsc's direction - praise that is largely undeserved. Minsc's high strength score is quite nice in the early stages of SoA, but as strength-enhancing items start to drop, so does Minsc's relative usefulness. A relevant pairwise comparison would be with Mazzy who has a faster leveling scheme, higher dexterity, grandmaster potential, and better innate abilities (imo on the last point).
As for Haer'Dalis, yes, bard HLAs are quite nice, but this bard simply requires too much investment and development time to be bothered with (this coming from a no-reload player's perspective). His HPs and thac0 are not good enough for him to be a quality frontliner in the lower levels of SoA.
I can't believe some people said Keldorn is overrated! With the gauntlets of dexterity and a giant strength girdle, Keldorn is almost a PC quality NPC.
well, poor Cernd.. if there should be an award for the most f*ùù*^$ù*ed down NPC, he could certainly have gotten it^^ I just wonder really why the EE did not buff him a little though.. and we know all in which areas it would have been really useful for him; greater werew. form real stats, greater HLA transform real stats too, even basic initial stats (even for a basic druid!), etc.. ! But well, i guess i crashed on the wrong thread here... but that one made me smile a little in comparison though.
just kidding.. though.. some truths here too... i would have loved to see a little 'beefed up' EE Cernd (in comparison again with all those 'overrated' ones..), sure.. */
Cernd's good in SoA its really just ToB where he has the big problems. At that point it wouldn't really matter what his stats were because that's when mages become time freezing powerhouses (and so Cernd would probably be frozen while your mage/mages were busy killing everyone).
In any case (at least from a stats/skills standpoint) the EE's really only did minor touchups to the existing NPC's. I personally really don't mind that they didn't touch Cernd (at least not on an individual level anyways). There are a slew of mods out there for people who aren't happy with shapeshifters and I've never had an issue with what he brings to the table.
Anyways, for some NPC's it made sense to boost them. Not because they were overpowered but because they were lacking the proficiencies (Anomen) and thieving skills (Imoen) they should have for their level, or because they had an item/stats that made no sense (Quayle).
Lol. No one added Cernd?! I wonder really why.. ) /
I know I said it in the other thread about underrated NPCs, but I kind of like Cernd. Sure, he's bland, but not everyone is exciting. He seems the most like a real person to me, albeit a real person who is pretty terrible at interpersonal and familial relationships. Since the BG Saga could be subtitled "Daddy Issues: The Videogame" I think that fits pretty well.
Plus as @elminster mentioned, he's none too shabby in SOA. I'll swap him back and forth between werewolf and human forms a couple of times in hard fights if he can't hit with his claws or if I need his spells for something. Overall I'd say he's rated pretty fairly in terms of his mechanical abilities.
I love Minsc... But he's pretty weak and has no questing involved in BG2, and only a minor sidetrack in 1. Also, it bugs me that he's a ranger... He's too dim to cast spells and lacks the brooding quality I typically associate with a ranger. Is there any way to mod/convert him to barbarian? That would at least be more useful/in character...
No npc is overrated, I think they're all as good as people think they are. And I never see people gush over npcs who aren't powerful
The second part is not necessarily true. I love Jan even though I don't use him effectively. I love Garrick even though most would agree that other characters are more effective (though he's nowhere near as useless as many make him out to be)
I am pretty suprised that Minsc is the leading character. I find him to be one of the most powerful characters of all.
+ He has undisputably best physical stats of all good Warriors. Only Korgan, Sarevok and Dorn can challenge him. This frees up STR or DEX boosting items to other less gifted characters.
+ As a Ranger he has 2 free proficiencies in dual wield + lots of other gained as pure class warrior. This means he can effectively use any weapon you want and swap them as the campaing proceeds. Since the game has abundance of useful weapons which would otherwise go to waste, this is quite huge boni.
+ The berserker ability is far from being useless. It still provides all the usefull immunities, no winded period. Simply nice bonus cherry for Ranger
+ Minsc has access to druid spells. This includes quite useful stuff like Bless, Doom, Entangle, Armor of Faith, Slow poison, Find traps, Dispel Magic, Protection from fire or Invisibility purge.
+ People very often forget that Minsc can serve as first class scout. Ranger's sneak combined with Find traps make very nice combo indeed.
Minsc is the king of verstatility and only Dorn (who is insanely overpowered anyway) can challenge him at this. If you don't trust me, give Minsc the Mace of Distruption with Belm and let him have a chat with Bohdi.
The thing is minsc gets mostly good stats which are anyway replicated by items. Actually his only really good stat is strength. While it is really strong in BG1, it is mostly irrelevant in BG2 where you can find 2 str boosting items from chapter 2
Let's compare him to other good fighter types : - valygar has better stats (using 1 girdle and gauntlet of strength), better spellcasting (mostly irrelevant anyway), much better scouting thanks to backstab. The only thing minsc have is the rage, which would be VERY strong if he did not lose control doing it.
- keldorn has crappy stats (easily corrected with items) but his kit is so powerful it is not even fair.
Bottom line is : if you want a ranger, get valygar. If you want something really powerful, get keldorn
For evil types, it's even worse : - Dorn has both better stats and a MUCH better kit (insanely OP has you mentionned) - Same for Sarevok - Korgan has also better stats, a much better rage, much better fighting capacity thanks to GM
Overall, i would say minsc is the worst pure-fighter type in BG2.
@mumumomo You need to focus more on the campaign as whole, than the end game stats.
Valygar is stucked with Studded leather.
Fighters needs to put a lot of pips in order to achieve grandmastery. That means they are locked to 1, lately 2 weapons for the enitre game, often waiting for the best pieces until lategame. Minsc can dual wield whatever you don't need very early.
As there Str items go - they actualy spent item slots. Where Valygar has Girdle of Giant strenght, Minsc can have Belt Internal Barrier. Instead of the gauntlets, you can grab bracers of weapon skill.
Also 2 of those Str enhancing items are most likely gonna get used to make Crom Faeyr - you can't backstab with that and it's not that great on 1 apr cleric. But good offhand for dual wielder like Minsc.
Also don't disrgeard spells. Armor of faith is neat and Dispel magic with high caster level can save the day.
valygars starting armor gives a pretty good benefit to begin with and he can wear a number of the dragon armors. So he isn't really stuck with studded leather armor.
Minsc is versatile, but the point is that he's just not the end-all, be-all good-aligned melee character that people make him out to be.
As @mumumomo and @elminster pointed out Valygar has better stats, can wear the same best (dragon scale) armors, and has all the same versatility with fewer high-value items expended to turn him into a whirling dervish of murder and destruction.
As for turning your strength enhancing items into Crom Feyr, by the time you can get Crom Feyr haven't you had the chance to find/purchase other strength enhancing items anyway? I seem to think that's been my experience anyway, but I will readily admit to not paying that much attention to when and where equipment becomes available. If not, there are enough potions of Whatever Giant Strength to keep your frontliner of choice reliably (and relatively cheaply) at 19+ strength for any and all important battles until you do turn up another one of the other more permanent solutions.
Yeah but Valygar has the personality of a piece of plywood
At least that doesn't get annoying like Minsc's overly long dead horse beating jokes. Many people say the jokes aren't funny anymore (or even stop being funny after 1 or 2 runs). Valygar being rather quiet makes it easier to ignore the "downside" of a bland personality. (I don't really agree about that anyway, as I said in other topics - the personality he has works just fine for me/my charname.)
Yeah, if any of your own party members are within (berserked) Minsc's range of perception they're just as likely to be targeted by him--which is not worth the benefit of spell immunities.
I am pretty suprised that Minsc is the leading character. I find him to be one of the most powerful characters of all.
+ The berserker ability is far from being useless. It still provides all the usefull immunities, no winded period. Simply nice bonus cherry for Ranger
Oh yeah - nice bonus cherry that is just as likely to set him to slaughtering the party as the enemy - why would anyone consider that useless...
Its alright you just have to use it appropriately.
For the two turns that it lasts it increases his strength and dexterity by 2 and increases his total health by 15. It also provides immunity to charm, panic, sleep, confusion, maze, level drain, hold, and feeblemind. Arguably he's better in a smaller party because of it but its actually not useless.
I am pretty suprised that Minsc is the leading character. I find him to be one of the most powerful characters of all.
+ He has undisputably best physical stats of all good Warriors. Only Korgan, Sarevok and Dorn can challenge him. This frees up STR or DEX boosting items to other less gifted characters.
+ As a Ranger he has 2 free proficiencies in dual wield + lots of other gained as pure class warrior. This means he can effectively use any weapon you want and swap them as the campaing proceeds. Since the game has abundance of useful weapons which would otherwise go to waste, this is quite huge boni.
+ The berserker ability is far from being useless. It still provides all the usefull immunities, no winded period. Simply nice bonus cherry for Ranger
+ Minsc has access to druid spells. This includes quite useful stuff like Bless, Doom, Entangle, Armor of Faith, Slow poison, Find traps, Dispel Magic, Protection from fire or Invisibility purge.
+ People very often forget that Minsc can serve as first class scout. Ranger's sneak combined with Find traps make very nice combo indeed.
Minsc is the king of verstatility and only Dorn (who is insanely overpowered anyway) can challenge him at this. If you don't trust me, give Minsc the Mace of Distruption with Belm and let him have a chat with Bohdi.
With respect, I'm going to have to disagree with several of your points here.
1. He certainly does not have the best physical stats of all good warriors. Even if you don't take into account STR items, of which there are enough that no member of your party will be puny even after you craft a certain hammer, his STR is not as high as Mazzy's who is basically set at a permanent 18/00 because of her innate abilities. His DEX is lacking behind several characters(including mazzy) and his CON is lower than a couple characters and tied with many others.
2. The 2 free dual wield pips are nice, but with the exception of Mace, none of his other points are put into something that benefits from dual wield. This means that while he certainly DOES have the ability to use the odd weapon that might go to waste otherwise, he has to use remedial points to not get a large penalty for using it. Couple this with the fact that rangers get pips A LOT slower than a pure class fighter does.
3. His rage has already been discussed by others. It has its uses, but the fact that you can't control it kind of annoying.
4. Perfectly acceptable point, although I would argue that none of the spells he gets access to are any better than a lot of other characters innate abilities.
5. Acceptable point. Of the other fighters only Valygar can do this in BG2. Although there are several characters who are able to do it in BG1, and you could always just have a thief or Aerie do it.
Overall I voted for Minsc for one of the reasons you stated. He might be a versatile character, but he doesn't excel in any one area. He isn't the best fighter, His spellcasting is pitiful at best, and his utility as a scout can be covered by a fighter character of some type at any point in the game. (Or by a thief.)
I actually don't think Baeloth is overrated I think he's fairly treated for what he is. He gets 50% magic resistance + the 5% resistance from his Robe of Evil Archmagi. As an elf he also gets 90% resistance to charm and sleep spells.
His ring is supposed to grant him an extra spells. It doesn't actually but in any case he has more spells than a sorcerer typically could cast and the ring itself can be used to create sellable gems (he takes a bit of damage for this).
His spellbook is fantastic especially given how relatively early you can pick him up (particularly in the case of single class charnames). Access to Haste, Fireball, and Dispel Magic in particular is great. By the time you pick him up the two most useful spells he doesn't initially have are probably Blindness and Glitterdust, but you can pick both of those up when he hits level 7 (which is his next level). His biggest downsides are probably the reputation loss you get picking him up (and him leaving at higher rep), his dexterity being 14, his access to level 4 spells being slower than a mage, and his inability to get 5th level spells. Overall though I think praise for him is pretty fair though.
I answered the question for reasons of characterisation and likeability. That said, I err closer to the argument of @Quartz that Baeloth's mechanically superiority just feels like another spoonful of self-congratulation on the part of his creators, while the generosity given to Edwin by the original developers is tempered by the widespread potential (or lack thereof) of the NPCs they created. Anyway, it's neither here nor there: mechanically, you are totally correct, Baeloth is not overrated: he just is incredibly powerful.
My reason for saying he is overrated is because there is nothing funny or tolerable about his personality. In short, I hate listening to him, and wish less of his lines were voiced.
Comments
Valygar being quiet and brooding and hating magic is plain perfect. Like I said in other topics, my jester is very very medicore. He hates people - especially mages - who are better than him. Valygar shares the mage hate and doesn't try in any way to brag or grab attention. As a stalker, he also kills silently or from the distance and the jester can take credit for it - Valygar wouldn't speak up to correct him because he has no real interest in being a hero; he just wants to get stuff done.
What I *Do* think is overrated is her Romance. I don't like it-it seems almost like taming of the shrew at times. She's much more interesting unromanced IMO.
game mechanic-wise, I'd have to say Nalia/Imoen. If I wanted a thief, I'd rather take Yoshimo, if I wanted a mage, I'd take Edwin. Perhaps it's just me, but I can't really get the wizard/thief classes to synergize very well.
I wonder really why..
well, poor Cernd.. if there should be an award for the most f*ùù*^$ù*ed down NPC, he could certainly have gotten it^^ I just wonder really why the EE did not buff him a little though.. and we know all in which areas it would have been really useful for him; greater werew. form real stats, greater HLA transform real stats too, even basic initial stats (even for a basic druid!), etc.. !
But well, i guess i crashed on the wrong thread here... but that one made me smile a little in comparison though.
Just for the record & participation, i picked Dorn, just for the huge ultra heavy first combats impressions he never miss to give (even if you are distracted!^)... if there is one with sick starting stats and innate abilities, could be him (in comparison, poor lad Cernd, you can go back to your grove, no one cared again for you apparently hehe; YOU did not need to be fixed in comparison, go with that, druid. *)) ) .. well, Dorn 'overrated' in the way, over obviously sponsored at least.. he is just an evil blackguard after all.. just a (non) man like others anyway.. and can be single handedly defeated too..
just kidding.. though.. some truths here too... i would have loved to see a little 'beefed up' EE Cernd (in comparison again with all those 'overrated' ones..), sure.. */
As for Haer'Dalis, yes, bard HLAs are quite nice, but this bard simply requires too much investment and development time to be bothered with (this coming from a no-reload player's perspective). His HPs and thac0 are not good enough for him to be a quality frontliner in the lower levels of SoA.
I can't believe some people said Keldorn is overrated! With the gauntlets of dexterity and a giant strength girdle, Keldorn is almost a PC quality NPC.
In any case (at least from a stats/skills standpoint) the EE's really only did minor touchups to the existing NPC's. I personally really don't mind that they didn't touch Cernd (at least not on an individual level anyways). There are a slew of mods out there for people who aren't happy with shapeshifters and I've never had an issue with what he brings to the table.
Anyways, for some NPC's it made sense to boost them. Not because they were overpowered but because they were lacking the proficiencies (Anomen) and thieving skills (Imoen) they should have for their level, or because they had an item/stats that made no sense (Quayle).
Plus as @elminster mentioned, he's none too shabby in SOA. I'll swap him back and forth between werewolf and human forms a couple of times in hard fights if he can't hit with his claws or if I need his spells for something. Overall I'd say he's rated pretty fairly in terms of his mechanical abilities.
-Blue
Also, it bugs me that he's a ranger... He's too dim to cast spells and lacks the brooding quality I typically associate with a ranger.
Is there any way to mod/convert him to barbarian? That would at least be more useful/in character...
+ He has undisputably best physical stats of all good Warriors. Only Korgan, Sarevok and Dorn can challenge him. This frees up STR or DEX boosting items to other less gifted characters.
+ As a Ranger he has 2 free proficiencies in dual wield + lots of other gained as pure class warrior. This means he can effectively use any weapon you want and swap them as the campaing proceeds. Since the game has abundance of useful weapons which would otherwise go to waste, this is quite huge boni.
+ The berserker ability is far from being useless. It still provides all the usefull immunities, no winded period. Simply nice bonus cherry for Ranger
+ Minsc has access to druid spells. This includes quite useful stuff like Bless, Doom, Entangle, Armor of Faith, Slow poison, Find traps, Dispel Magic, Protection from fire or Invisibility purge.
+ People very often forget that Minsc can serve as first class scout. Ranger's sneak combined with Find traps make very nice combo indeed.
Minsc is the king of verstatility and only Dorn (who is insanely overpowered anyway) can challenge him at this. If you don't trust me, give Minsc the Mace of Distruption with Belm and let him have a chat with Bohdi.
Let's compare him to other good fighter types :
- valygar has better stats (using 1 girdle and gauntlet of strength), better spellcasting (mostly irrelevant anyway), much better scouting thanks to backstab. The only thing minsc have is the rage, which would be VERY strong if he did not lose control doing it.
- keldorn has crappy stats (easily corrected with items) but his kit is so powerful it is not even fair.
Bottom line is : if you want a ranger, get valygar. If you want something really powerful, get keldorn
For evil types, it's even worse :
- Dorn has both better stats and a MUCH better kit (insanely OP has you mentionned)
- Same for Sarevok
- Korgan has also better stats, a much better rage, much better fighting capacity thanks to GM
Overall, i would say minsc is the worst pure-fighter type in BG2.
You need to focus more on the campaign as whole, than the end game stats.
Valygar is stucked with Studded leather.
Fighters needs to put a lot of pips in order to achieve grandmastery. That means they are locked to 1, lately 2 weapons for the enitre game, often waiting for the best pieces until lategame. Minsc can dual wield whatever you don't need very early.
As there Str items go - they actualy spent item slots. Where Valygar has Girdle of Giant strenght, Minsc can have Belt Internal Barrier. Instead of the gauntlets, you can grab bracers of weapon skill.
Also 2 of those Str enhancing items are most likely gonna get used to make Crom Faeyr - you can't backstab with that and it's not that great on 1 apr cleric. But good offhand for dual wielder like Minsc.
Also don't disrgeard spells. Armor of faith is neat and Dispel magic with high caster level can save the day.
As @mumumomo and @elminster pointed out Valygar has better stats, can wear the same best (dragon scale) armors, and has all the same versatility with fewer high-value items expended to turn him into a whirling dervish of murder and destruction.
As for turning your strength enhancing items into Crom Feyr, by the time you can get Crom Feyr haven't you had the chance to find/purchase other strength enhancing items anyway? I seem to think that's been my experience anyway, but I will readily admit to not paying that much attention to when and where equipment becomes available. If not, there are enough potions of Whatever Giant Strength to keep your frontliner of choice reliably (and relatively cheaply) at 19+ strength for any and all important battles until you do turn up another one of the other more permanent solutions.
-Blue
For the two turns that it lasts it increases his strength and dexterity by 2 and increases his total health by 15. It also provides immunity to charm, panic, sleep, confusion, maze, level drain, hold, and feeblemind. Arguably he's better in a smaller party because of it but its actually not useless.
1. He certainly does not have the best physical stats of all good warriors. Even if you don't take into account STR items, of which there are enough that no member of your party will be puny even after you craft a certain hammer, his STR is not as high as Mazzy's who is basically set at a permanent 18/00 because of her innate abilities. His DEX is lacking behind several characters(including mazzy) and his CON is lower than a couple characters and tied with many others.
2. The 2 free dual wield pips are nice, but with the exception of Mace, none of his other points are put into something that benefits from dual wield. This means that while he certainly DOES have the ability to use the odd weapon that might go to waste otherwise, he has to use remedial points to not get a large penalty for using it. Couple this with the fact that rangers get pips A LOT slower than a pure class fighter does.
3. His rage has already been discussed by others. It has its uses, but the fact that you can't control it kind of annoying.
4. Perfectly acceptable point, although I would argue that none of the spells he gets access to are any better than a lot of other characters innate abilities.
5. Acceptable point. Of the other fighters only Valygar can do this in BG2. Although there are several characters who are able to do it in BG1, and you could always just have a thief or Aerie do it.
Overall I voted for Minsc for one of the reasons you stated. He might be a versatile character, but he doesn't excel in any one area. He isn't the best fighter, His spellcasting is pitiful at best, and his utility as a scout can be covered by a fighter character of some type at any point in the game. (Or by a thief.)
My reason for saying he is overrated is because there is nothing funny or tolerable about his personality. In short, I hate listening to him, and wish less of his lines were voiced.