Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Is Blackguard overpowered ?

ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
I am currently tinkering with NI, trying to create some custom kits which would spice up my next playtrough. I am currently in the middle of balance phase, so I've carefuly read trough all kits so I can compare to them. The Blackguard struck me as much more generous than other kits in bonus/malus ratio - especially when compared to other paladins. I would like to ask for public opinion about this issue.

Summary of blackguard kit:

+Lay on Hands upgraded to Absorb Health
+ Immunities to fear and level drain
+ Can control undead, like evil clerics
+ Powerful Poison weapon ability, with more uses/day per 5 levels
+ Powerful Aura of Despair ability, with good level progression
+ Can choose from wider range of alignments (CE, NE, LE - Paladin can be only LG)
- No detect Evil
- No protection from Evil (but may cast it as spell eventually).

Note: I am aware that this is singleplayer game and by no means needs super-duper balanced classes. However I still think that there is a line, which if crossed means less fun in the end.

Is Blackguard overpowered ? 150 votes

Blackguard is indeed overpowered
37%
DeeDemivrgvsGrammarsaladsarevok57lefreutBerconelementCloutierFunkavewillum69QuartzSwordsNotWordsEnterHaerDalisSharGuidesMyHandjfliederKadrikRhymeWolkArizaelDJKajuru 56 votes
Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
30%
JaceMiridornotkingFlashburnKangaxxDemiLichSchneidendDelvarianTyonFenghoangMillardkillmooreLoreBakuninArchaosAstafasOneAngryMushroomRadwulfStrayedMonkeyvalamyrkarnor00ThacoBell 45 votes
Blackguard is actualy underpowered
6%
KamigoroshiSCARY_WIZARDZaknafeinBaenreAlexandreSharStormvesselTarlugnGenderNihilismGirdlejeska22500 9 votes
I don't care.
26%
TingelAramintaielminsterDrayenChromatic5EnilwynThunderStefanOchickenhedMikeMastersTheGreatKhanAristilliusryuken87JazdibbbearNoonKidCarnivalNonnahswriterFinneousPJ 40 votes
«13

Comments

  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,433
    Blackguard is actualy underpowered
    Pfft I think they should get backstabs like in 3rd Edition, and a permanent aura effect!

  • ScytheKnightScytheKnight Member Posts: 220
    Also, is an evil class, and if you want the souped up OP version (Dorn) or play with a party that suits the character you need to **** around with the reputation system.

  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    The are indeed very OP but the only real OP thing is poison weapon

    For the rest they are very close to cavalier or undead hunter with spell casting, undead turning and good immunities. The blackguard has aura of despair but he paladins can use carsomyr (much greater asset IMO)

    Poison weapon however is insanely powerful and should clearly be toned down :
    - probably the highest damage output in the game due to stacking
    - bypasses magical protections like stoneskin and mirror image
    - disrupt all spell casting

    Therefore, it is currently both the ultimate mage killer AND the ultimate standard mob killer.
    This should be changed :
    - option 1: it should not stack. The damage would be pitiful but it would still be very strong against casters
    - option 2 : it should not bypass magical protections. That would make it a lot less useful against mages but still a very damaging options against everything else

    Gotural
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 866
    There's no option for agreeing that they're indeed overpowered, but I like it as it is? Voting for option 1 might give the impression that we would want devs to nerf Blackguard.

    CrevsDaakSharGuidesMyHandjackjackbooinyoureyes
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    mumumomo said:

    The are indeed very OP but the only real OP thing is poison weapon
    For the rest they are very close to cavalier or undead hunter with spell casting, undead turning and good immunities. The blackguard has aura of despair but he paladins can use carsomyr (much greater asset IMO)

    I agree with poison weapon. However I decided not to count the Carsomyr. It is indeed The Sword, but it's more story feature, than kit feature. And evil also gets many cool stuff as well (Hell trials, Vorpal sword etc.).

  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    Illustair said:

    There's no option for agreeing that they're indeed overpowered, but I like it as it is? Voting for option 1 might give the impression that we would want devs to nerf Blackguard.

    This isn't about nerfing at all. I want clear feedback of what people consider balanced and why, so I can build upon it. Putting there more options would be less clear. If you think he's op but still like it feel free to vote. Powergaming is fine as long it is fun.

    Wolk
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I don't care.
    I have no issues with the Blackguard kit. Yeah, poison weapon is very powerful, but that's it. I think the view on the kit is a bit biased because the first taste we got was 19 strength Dorn with personal +1 weapon from the start. So sure it strikes us as "holy shit, that's powerful". I think it's fine compared to the other paladin kits. It being evil balances it in game a bit, the same way every evil character is.

    When making kits, you should just make sure they are balanced in themselves - don't give a kit only upsides and no or laughable/non-issue drawbacks. For example, cleric "kits" - the alignment restriction is no drawback at all. I highly doubt anyone in the history of ever wanted... let's say Stormshield and being neutral aligned so badly that they ragequit over the inability to have the ability as neutral cleric.

    If you add a powerful ability, balance it with something that hurts at least a bit. Don't use alignment restrictions or stats that aren't relevant for the class (-2 charisma for a fighter class, -2 strength for mages) as "downsides" and you should be fine.

    NecomancerelminsterThacoBellsarevok57
  • WolkWolk Member Posts: 279
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    The OPest thing about the blackguard is mostly that he doesn't have any real downsides (playing evil isn't a downside, why would anyone play a good blackguard!?!?) compared to the other Paladin kits, like the Inquisitor that can't cast spells, or the Cavalier that can't use misile weapon. The loss of prot. from evil isn't that bad and detect evil is pointless for a blackguard, I know where I am, thank you stupid spell!

    But we are talking about a game where a character like Garrick can become somewhat OP: it is just a bit easier to become OP with a blackguard.

    elminster
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    I don't care.
    They are fun. Overpowered doesnt really come into it for my point of view.
    Obviously, some crazy class which allowed you to kill every enemy instantly wouldnt be fun, as such, my only parameter is "fun" or "no-fun" :)

    jackjackThacoBell
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    @KidCarnival
    Forget the 19 str and good weapon (most warrior charnames get that as well anyway with the tome). Focus on kit itself.

    Consideringg the kit construction, isn't the blackguard kit exactly a collection of big pluses only minor downside (prot. and det. evil)?

    U confused me with the alingment restriction. U first say it is downside and than continue with cleric comment, where it suddenly isn't downside at all :P. I personaly think it's a minor downsided indeed (rep. and stuff) but nothing what can compare to new or upgraded ability. Besides he can pick to be chaotic or neutral.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,156
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    I feel that it is OP after using it without Dorn, because, you know, poisoned Darts are the real thing. And long swords, my PC was so overpowered (all those cheesy paladin's min rolls :P), with 18/78, 18, 18, 15, 13, 15 he was basically a death tank, they can still cast Prot. From Evil because of a bug. Also, not being able to use Carsomyr isn't a downgrade as it was said before.
    The real downgrade on Blackguards is that they don't get lightsabers :P

    Stormvessel
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 812
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    Lol who voted for underpowered

    It's the most overpowered kit by a very, very large margin. Based on lots of things, mainly poison weapon

    booinyoureyes
  • AlextonAlexton Member Posts: 5
    Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
    Its stupidly strong in bg1, sure.
    But poison weapon isnt as strong in bg2 and compared to someone who knows how to push the inquisitor its decent.

    The Cavalier is not bad either, the second game is riddled with fire damage and easily getting 100+ resistance helps alot.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2014
    Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
    ...Actually the Inquisitor is overpowered, not Blackguard. It has a "you lose" button against mages for free.
    In PnP, I think the Dispel is only x1.5 times as strong. Not x2.

    The Blackguard is perfectly balanced, it gives you Paladin stuff but you can be any evil. Poison Weapon that works better for him than an Assassin because of better THAC0 and great defenses. Absorb Health is fun too.

    And I was looking FOREVER for a Blackguard kit in modding sites. Most were crappy Fighter ones and one was just an evil Inquisitor *rolls eyes*.

    Love the Blackguard, by far my favorite kit. Not for it's power but because it's implemented correctly keeping it's flavor as a true Antipaladin class.

  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
    Blackguard is nice. Drop that *balance* stuff. This is an MMO gimmick. MMOs have no place anywhere near quality titles, games and themes. Overpowered? Hell, yeah! Make one and enjoy! Underpowered? Just choose another kit, class, dual or multi! Balanced? By chance, and even if yes or no, no one should care. Be happy that this game is not plagued by the mmo "illness", constant nerfing, class changes, dumping and watering down skills/spells/abilities, and so on! Oh, and pick Dorn up for party. He rawrs angrily and parties wild!

    CrevsDaak
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    edited February 2014
    Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
    I think the problem with poison is not the ability itself but how you get spell failure if you receive 1hp damage. I find more fitting how D&D 3rd deals with the concentration issue for casters.

    Same goes with insect swarm, anyway, so it is not overpowered for BG2. For BG1, it is very easy to disrupt with a good archer, so again not overpowered.

    About stacking... Yes, stacking shouldnt happen but I am all for things that kill trash faster

  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    I think Archaos is perfectly right.

    Here, the thing that prevent blackguard from completely overshadowing the other fighter classes is the fact that it is an evil class IMO.
    Apart from that, poison weapon is so OP (mage killing is almost as easy as with an inquisitor and everything else drops like flies) that there is no reason to play other fighter types.

    scriver
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited February 2014
    Blackguard is just as balanced as other kits.
    That was a thing about Paladins. Roleplay and gameplay restrictions.
    Human only. Evil only. And at too high reputation you become fallen so you suffer through higher prices, plus no Carsormyr. One of the best weapons in the game.

    Now a review of the class:
    -Lay on Hands is better because it works on anyone, it's instant, you don't have to find and attack an enemy.
    -With Command Undead, you still need to attack them afterwards but I'm not sure if they break free of it, then.
    -Immunity to Fear and Level Drain. One from Cavalier and one from Undead Hunter, I believe. Both good.
    -The Poison Weapon is quite good indeed but a Inquisitor destroys the protections of mages, anyway.
    -Detect Evil is fun to use at the first playthrough so you know who's evil or not. That's it.
    -The multiple uses of Protection from Evil are very very good to have in BG1 early on.
    -Aura of Despair is a debuff right? -2 Saves and AC? Don't remember. Good ability.

    The Blackguard might have an edge over the other Paladins except Inquisitor, with the Poison Weapon ability true but it's a nice bonus that only one other class has and you pay it with what I described above.

    Evil was always a bit stronger in the games. To counter the fact that it was the harder path.
    You are rewarded with great abilities by taking the challenging path.
    If you're too good you will fall and if you're too evil you'll be despised and hunted.
    I think it's a fair trade.

    Illustair
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited February 2014
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    it's overpowered imo, but I don't think it matters

    one thing I genuinely dislike though is his poison weapon. considering its one of the main plus points of the assassin who has to suffer quite significant penalties to obtain it the blackguard gets it for little to no trade-off

    id dump his version of it or change it for something else then the class would be pretty decently done imo

  • ryuken87ryuken87 Member Posts: 563
    I don't care.
    Blackguard is slightly more powerful than other Paladins, but has no arcane magic and therefore cannot be considered overpowered.

    @element I'd argue the Assassin's disadvantages were more trade-offs for the 7x backstab. There's just more synergy of the ability with the Blackguard since it's attacking at much better thac0 with more APR. Also consider that the ability was never designed for BG1 where it is more powerful.

    element
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,559
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    Blackguard is indeed OP'd IMO (at least in BG1), but I would argue that the paladin class as a whole is OP'd - wearing any armor, using any weapon, weapon specialization, saving throw bonuses, laying on hands, turning undead, eventual cleric spells, etc.

    The paladin's OPness has always been counterbalanced by the fact that a player is restricted to a particular race and alignment. The same is also true of the Blackguard.

    Despite the fact that I consider the Blackguard to be so powerful, I will seldom, if ever play as one, because I don't typically play as evil chars. That just goes to show how much of an offset its race/alignment restrictions are.

    elminster
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,559
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    Illustair said:

    There's no option for agreeing that they're indeed overpowered, but I like it as it is? Voting for option 1 might give the impression that we would want devs to nerf Blackguard.

    Agreed.

    I definitively do NOT want to see the devs nerf another class that they've created - especially after so much time has passed.

    jackjackbooinyoureyesIllustair
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    ryuken87 said:


    @element I'd argue the Assassin's disadvantages were more trade-offs for the 7x backstab. There's just more synergy of the ability with the Blackguard since it's attacking at much better thac0 with more APR. Also consider that the ability was never designed for BG1 where it is more powerful.

    I agree that the back stab is a bigger deal I just don't like the idea that a class as specialised as the Assassin shares one of its more unique and interesting powers with a class that really doesn't sacrifice anything to attain it. To me it just makes the assassin a little less special/relevant as one of its class defining features is shared with a class that already has a number of unique and powerful abilities and at far less of a cost then the assassin has to suffer to gain its own .

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    edited February 2014
    I don't care.
    I think its more powerful than most melee classes AND I don't care one bit... confused about which to vote for.

    Edit: After reading the posts, apparently a lot of people already said that they agree with this

    Illustair
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Blackguard is indeed overpowered
    I think it is overpowered compared to others Paladin kits, but compared to the rest of the game, it's balanced.

  • TarlugnTarlugn Member Posts: 204
    Blackguard is actualy underpowered
    Without backstab (or "death attack" as it was in NWN 1, rising in the same manner as backstab multiplier) the blackguard isn´t so overpowering as an idea as it was as a prestige class with some restrictions in NWN 1. If only the aura was always active, then it might be too powerful, but as it is, it is nicely balanced.

Sign In or Register to comment.