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BG2 too easy to exploit...a suggestion:

CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Hello all,

Just wanted to throw an idea out there. I find that this game allows you too easy an opportunity for unlimited gold and ridiculous uber-powerful equipment early on in the game. The way this is done is simply by stacking potions of master thieving to get your pickpocket over 200% and then essentially stealing everything that isn't tied down. Many shopkeepers allow you the option to steal. This can cause such an imbalance in the game that it ceases to be as much fun. Also, places like the Thieves' Guild, Mae'var's, and Roger the Fence(sewers) will allow you to sell stolen goods which pretty much leads to unlimited gold if you steal, sell back, repeat enough times.

With the single potion of thieving you find in Irenicus' dungeon and the ones you can purchase at Ribald's, you can get your (or Yoshimo's) pickpocket up high enough to steal the following(on Waukeem's Promenade alone):

Field Plate(x2)
+2 large and med shield
arrows of biting, and others
80 arrows of dispelling
high level scrolls (including a limited wish scroll which you can use to get a suit of +2 field plate)
all 5 wands from Irenicus's dungeon with maximum charges (sell and steal back)
Ring of Regen(pickpocketed directly off Ribald so I guess this one could be legit...ish)

Then, when you get to the slums, you can clean out the upstairs shop in Galen's house(arrows of acid, potions galore, almost any +1 magic weapon or armor, glasses of ID), Bernard's shop(xbow of speed, sword of flame, high level spells, Blade of Roses+3, Stonefire Axe +3, Sling of Seeking+2, Azuredge)

At the docks, you can acquire from Mae'Var's guildhall: Nymph Cloak, +2 weapons, Bracers of AC6, potions galore including enough thieving and perception potions to last you the whole game.

In the Sewers, Roger the fence has just about every potion you can think of.

In Trademeet, one of the vendors (not sure which) has the +3 acid club(Blackblood), Belt of Inertial Barrier, Cloak of Displacement, +3 Dwarven Thrower, Ras +2, Tansheron's Bow +3, and a Staff of Striking(I think)

In the Ust Natha, you can steal Firetooth +3, potions aplenty, Sentinel(+4 med shield), amulet of 10% magic resist, Rod of Smiting+3, Staff of Earth +2, and many scrolls.

There are probably more I have forgotten but you get the gist.

Overall, these are some of the best items in the game and getting them so easily feels wrong somehow. Now I know it is a choice and I have several times enacted what I call the "code of honor" which means: either no stealing from shopkeepers or limiting it to 1 item per vendor with no option to 3R (re-steal, resell, repeat). However, it might be nice to have the option to either eliminate the steal option from the elite shopkeepers or do not allow you to stack potions of master thievery, maybe as a mod perhaps?...and while we are on the subject, how about an option to lower the treasure from a Monty Haul to a Chincie Charlie? Even playing legit with a code of honor, I eventually hit a point where gold loses it gameplay value because I get so much of it.

Your thoughts?

Comments

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    CTKnightOwl said:

    Your thoughts?

    It's the only exploit for infinite money in the EEs.
    I never use it despite of being a powergamer, it's incredibly easy to find money by just looting your enemies and selling their magical items.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I honestly don't see the issue here. If you think it's an exploit, don't do it. And since it is a single player game (by and large), it isn't like it 'Breaks' anything beyond that.

    And there are those that would say that thieves generally need something to be relevant in the game. Short of this, they are glorified trap removers in most instances.

    And yes, there is ridiculous amounts of loot in the game. But then I'd bet that the majority of people fall into one of three categories. 1) they do every single quest 'because' they want all of that insane loot. After all, it is a treasure hunt game. Or 2) They don't focus so much on doing all of the quests, and don't bean count the coins, so they don't realize or let it detract from the game the fact that there IS all of that loot. Or 3) find it a distraction, but little more than that.

    All simply my opinion.
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    You can buy every single one of these items without even remotely making a dent in your purse, such is the redundancy of gold in bg2.
    It's less effort to just purchase these items outright than it is to go through the hassle of obtaining and drinking a bunch of thieving potions.
  • vangoatvangoat Member Posts: 212
    simples said:

    obvious answer being: just don't steal then

    lol, this.

    I've played through BG2 (or at least the early part of it) maybe 20 times over the years. Only in one game have I bothered stealing things. Going around with 3-4 rep the whole game and needing to donate to temples/get ripped off by merchants I figured it was only fair if I chose to pilfer a few things.

  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Ehh, yeah, I'm with the others in the "Self Control" camp. :/ I mean, I lack it with regards to potions, scrolls, and containers and some other things, but yeah.
  • BlucherBlucher Member Posts: 110
    From what I've read they have already nerfed Pick Pocket enough (Ring of Gaxx, etc.). I'd rather it not be completely useless.
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    @CTKnightOwl‌ I agree with you.
    A couple of months ago I suggested this:
    "If you simple inhibit stealing in the shops that allow you to sell stolen good, you will have a hard time doing that trick.
    You could still make some money stealing from a shop and selling to a different shop, but you wouldn't be able to do that in a cheesy way."
    But it looks like most people just don't consider this an issue.
    You'll have all the best items in the game anyway, stealing or buying them... so maybe we just need to use "self control" if we don't like that trick.
  • MrTea1976MrTea1976 Member Posts: 20
    You could always use the Rogue Rebalancing Mod. It addresses this amongst other things.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I understand what you're saying but I don't find it a problem. TBH, I don't think I've ever used PP.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    I pickpocket regularly, but I never steal anything I've sold.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    vangoat said:

    simples said:

    obvious answer being: just don't steal then

    lol, this.

    I've played through BG2 (or at least the early part of it) maybe 20 times over the years. Only in one game have I bothered stealing things. Going around with 3-4 rep the whole game and needing to donate to temples/get ripped off by merchants I figured it was only fair if I chose to pilfer a few things.

    I honestly believe that this was at least partly the intent. With the lower rep and thus the higher prices, the devs decided to throw these players a bone by allowing them to steal and potentially sell back. That, plus adding value to the thief class in general and the fact that consumers want it is all the justification that I need.

    I appreciate that the OP thinks it's a big deal. Maybe the solution would be for a mod with the option to prevent stacking of potion effects? But a MOD. I certainly would not want this to become common in the game as it would damage my personal experience. but if it helps them, then the option would definitely be of some use to those who wanted to make use of it.
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    All good posts by everyone although I am aware that the mechanic can be simply avoided. I guess my initial post wanted to address 2 issues, the potential to overuse PP and the overabundance of gold.

    With any lawful character, I won't steal at all (even having a chaotic NPC do the stealing is unacceptable to my LG protagonist) this is a choice I make and I suppose forcing anyone into limitations is a bit unfair. However, for my own playing style, I thought it might be nice if there were options.

    lunar, your post is by far the most helpful, I think I will look into this as those tweaks are just what I need.

    Call me an OCD gamer but I have a hard time leaving any chest unopened or item worth more than 10 gold on the ground. I recognize that this is my baggage. There are a number of mods that jack up difficulty. I would love to see one that maybe just halves the amount of gold awarded.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    CTKnightOwl said:

    Call me an OCD gamer but I have a hard time leaving any chest unopened or item worth more than 10 gold on the ground. I recognize that this is my baggage. There are a number of mods that jack up difficulty. I would love to see one that maybe just halves the amount of gold awarded.

    Yeah, the same happens to me, in BG2 you have so much money you can't even think of something useful to spend it in.
  • simplessimples Member Posts: 540
    you seem like a very frugal person and that's a good thing
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    Not frugal, just nutty for loot. Any game that allows you so many options with gear and treasure is my cup of joe.
  • batjellybatjelly Member Posts: 25
    Once when playing a thief, robbing all the merchants was simply a way to raise the 20k instead of doing a number of quests. It was a nice option to have.

    I'm also nutty for loot.
  • CTKnightOwlCTKnightOwl Member Posts: 88
    I had 20k once when I met Galen Bayle the first time, he didn't even lower it to 15k. (took out the chumps in the Den of the Seven Dales for serious loot. the trick is to stun Brennen Risling before he runs off. You can sell his ring of invisibility and then repurchase it for less than you sold it for)
  • mk187mk187 Member Posts: 3
    Like simples said, just don't. Makes the game more fun and rewarding.
    Otherwise you could just as easy use the CLUAConsole to get your money...
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,727
    I used to steal stuff like you, but then I started my wizard slayer's solo runs...
  • Eadwyn_G8keeperEadwyn_G8keeper Member Posts: 541
    edited November 2014
    Last night I ran a tally on a fairly typical early crime wave: Arledrian in Galen Boyle's house, the street vendor just outside, Copper Coronet [post Hendak], Lady Yuth in Adventure Mart, Armorer and Fletcher, Galoomp, Jayes, and Gorch. Went back and priced out all the items.

    Items [all to be put in play] : 164, 925 GP
    Sell/Resteal: @25,000 GP [purchased Belt of Giant Str, Bracers of Defense AC 4, Ring of Air Control]
    Mage scrolls: 124, 810 GP

    In retrospect I could pare down the Item total to under 100,000 GP by passing up Arrows of Dispelling and Biting and Wands of Cloudkill and Lightning, plus perhaps the Field Plate(x2) and Large Shield+2 [Plate Mail will do fine for Chap. 2].

    The Mage scroll total could be cut in half easily--most of the total was for the purpose of power-boosting Imoen's Spellbook and XP when rescued. [Note: I had a definite 'shopping' list based on spells useful for Aerie, Nalia and my True Neutral Fighter-Mage PC]

    As Jayes remarks, "Hard times is coming..." --and I have just escaped from a Torture experience in a massive dungeon, Baalspawn that I am [of whatever alignment]. Whereupon Imoen has been whisked away by an unknown power along with Irenicus the Arch-Tormentor!!!

    I am NOT in the mood for nice calculations of ethics... GEAR UP!! Count the costs later but for now BE PREPARED must be my only possible survival mode. Still, it is kind of strange in the midst of this campaign when Ribald addresses Jaheira as a person of known character rather than a desperate struggler coping with an overwhelming prospect..!!

    That being said, the question of whether or not this aspect of BG2 Game Design is a faithful and skillful representation true to the conceptions of ADD, must linger. Certainly it is implicit in the minds of Bioware devs--whatever other purpose could all those potions of Master Thievery, fences and Steal options be for??

    If one deems it a poor representation of what skillful ADD world-building SHOULD be in your own creative imagination, then simply re-imagine the game completely as you would have made it.. I have no problem at all with mentally flunking the generally godlike powers of Bioware devs in certain respects and being the Dev of my own game. It's not like I am sending them to Hell or anything...fer Chrissakes!

    For example, in your ideal Game-World, Good aligned PCs simply would be unable to condone Theft from Innocents except in Les Miserables sort of predicaments [Stealing bread for survival] ...BUT, they and only they would be befriended by some sort of Santa Claus NPC bestowing awesome goodies and advice. Essentially getting the stuff by EEKeeper and imagining a story behind them---my obvious Goodness has prevailed!!! Yay! :)

    A technical fix might be a mod which increases Storekeep Pickpocket thresholds 5-10% after each successful Theft by any PC/NPC in a given 7day time period. IMHO, stacking potions is somewhat problematic but the idea of simply stealing scroll after scroll after scroll or 12 or more stacks of Arrows of Fire/Acid/+2 because you are some kind of Genius Thief is unsatisfying.

    Please forgive the verbosity. This sort of stuff, the crux of good Game Design with satisfying content that may have something approaching Wisdom to share, a good use of Time on many levels, what RPG games really are as RL activities, a future in which Virtual Games may become the very epitome of Highest Art.... my wheelhouse.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    The only ones I bother stealing from are Gorch, from Maevar's Guildhouse, and Lazarus Librarius from Saradush.
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