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Dwarf and 18 charisma.

If you look at it from a roleplay perspective, why wouldn't it be possible for a dwarf to have 18 charisma?

I'm thinking about creating a dwarf paladin, and the -2 charisma is kind of preventing me from doing this. Is it just a gameplay limitation or would there be a reason for a dwarf not being charismatic?
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  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Supposedly, according to AD&D, a dwarf just isn't as charismatic as a human, half-elf, elf, halfling, etc etc etc can be. It's just the way they're built.

    In practice, it's suppose to balance out the dwarves bonus to constitution score. (Not that plus CON isn't so much majorly better then minus CHA that such 'balance' is ridiculous.) To me, I'd say go ahead and make your 18 charisma paladin, but in turn for 'balance' leave their con at 18 and don't boost it higher (unless you don't really care about balance, in which case, go for what you want).

    I regularly make elven and halfling druids (which actually are allowed in Forgotten Realms, so beeda, Bioware) all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with roleplaying your dwarf as having extreme force of personality and other charismatic traits very unusual for their race but there all the same. I'd allow it as a DM (though I'm not sure I'd allow a paladin- very, very, very few races are allowed to be paladins in AD&D). Besides, I think there might be at least one dwarf subrace that doesn't get the CHA penalty, but gets a penalty to DEX or something instead.
    SionIVJuliusBorisovRAM021
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    When looking at the dwarf from a gameplay perspective in Baldur's Gate i'm putting the constitution bonus up against the loss of dexterity.

    Elf : +1 DEX, -1 CON
    Gnome +1 INT - 1 WIS
    Half-Orc +1 STR +1 CON - 2 INT

    Halfling +1 DEX - 1 STR - 1 WIS
    Dwarf +1 CON - 1 DEX -2 CHA

    Why is it that the gnome only gets -1 WIS and still shorty saves? And why does the dwarf trade +1 CON against -2 CHA - 1 DEX?

    After some time of rolling my dwarf paladin ended up with.

    18/92
    17
    19
    9
    13
    18

    I could also ignore the paladin requirement and put his Charisma down to 16. I'm sure that not every single paladin out there has amazing charisma.


    RAM021
  • SertoriusSertorius Member Posts: 172
    edited March 2014
    SionIV said:

    When looking at the dwarf from a gameplay perspective

    That may just be the issue: you are looking at it from a gamplay perspective, whereas the +/- to stats are made from a roleplay perspective
    element
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Sertorius said:

    SionIV said:

    When looking at the dwarf from a gameplay perspective

    That may just be the issue: you are looking at it from a gamplay perspective, whereas the +/- to stats are made from a roleplay perspective
    It's because i don't want to end up playing something incredible powerful. I don't see a dwarf paladin to be anything over the top, with the exception of very powerful saving throws.

    But looking at it from a roleplay perspective i just don't see why a dwarf couldn't have 18 charisma.

    There are 'good' drows out there, so why couldn't there be a dwarf that was a born leader?
    RAM021
  • SertoriusSertorius Member Posts: 172
    edited March 2014
    From what I remember from the Book of Dwarves, it is more or less their entire outlook on life that prevents them from becoming paladins; for better or worse, they just do not have it in them.

    btw, I think i have the book on pdf somewhere if it is of any interest to you?
    SionIVRAM021
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    Sertorius said:

    From what I remember from the Book of Dwarves, it is more or less their entire outlook on life that prevents them from becoming paladins; for better or worse, they just do not have it in them.

    What does it say about Dwarfs and two handed swords? ;)

    [Edited] :

    It's from the forgotten realms wikipedia, so not sure if it should be taken to heart or not.

    "Many paladins are human or half-elves, whose sense of ambition and purpose makes the two races excellent champions of an ideal or the divine. Dwarves are in some ways, due to their cultural tradition of discipline and religious devotion, well-suited for the life of a paladin, though it means putting ideals before family and clan, which can be hard on dwarves. However, shield dwarves make uncommonly good paladins in many cases"
    RAM021
  • SertoriusSertorius Member Posts: 172
    edited March 2014
    That must be from some of the newer versions of the rules, the book of dwarves I had the stuff from is Ad&d 2nd, so this may be newer and thereby more correct.

    [Edit]

    This is from the complete paladin's handbook:

    According to the PH, only humans can be paladins. But, using the rules in this book,
    a DM may allow paladin-like characters of other races in an AD&D® campaign. Lacking
    the necessary qualities to become paladins in the truest sense, these other races are
    subject to specific limitations and are known as demipaladins.
    A demipaladin is a fighter/cleric who gains paladin-like powers from his deity after
    completing special quests for his church. A demipaladin may be a dwarf, gnome, elf,
    half-elf, or halfling. Any character desiring to become a demipaladin must be lawful good
    from the character's generation and have all the ability-score requirements of paladins.
    The character is allowed to gain a 10% bonus on experience in his fighter or cleric class
    if his Strength or Wisdom score (respectively) is 16 or better (Charisma, of course, must
    be 17 or better). The character must also adhere to all ethos requirements, such as
    strictures, edicts, and so on, from the start of play.

    So it would seem that a paladin of sorts IS possible for other races

    This is the suggestion for a dwarf paladin:

    Dwarven Forgelighter: A forgelighter devotes his life to taking back dwarven
    kingdoms and cities that were lost to other races (e.g., humans, orcs, derro, etc.) by
    warfare or treachery, re-establishing the colonies and defending them until they are selfsustaining
    again.
    Post edited by Sertorius on
    SionIVJuliusBorisovRAM021
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited March 2014
    Double post
    RAM021
  • SertoriusSertorius Member Posts: 172
    elminster said:

    Dwarves have a really bad PR department and it reflects poorly on each individual dwarf.

    They must have hired a gully dwarf for the job
    BlackravenelminsterJuliusBorisovRAM021
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    No real reason besides AD&D not really being all that balanced of a game (as anyone who's played a mage can clarify). These stat bonus and penalties run back to first edition AD&D, where everything was so heavily inspired by Tolkien you could almost call it a ripoff (of course, Tolkien wrote some very inspiring and charismatic dwarves, so I don't know). I suppose the -2 charisma is a balance for the shorty saves, and honestly, physical abilities tend to be more prized at character creation then mental abilities, so maybe that's why the gnome only has a minus -1.
    JuliusBorisov
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Archaos said:

    ...Dwarves are gruff, stubborn and not very diplomatic. They're also blunt and they're not elegant by nature or too clean.

    Have you seen the Dwarves in the Hobbit and Gimli in Lord of the Rings? They were modeled after them.

    They like to get drunk, generally lack manners so they shout, are blunt, burp and way too direct which isn't polite.
    Also they're not the best at expressing themselves and don't move with grace.

    All those things gives them a Charisma penalty.

    And being a Drow doesn't make you less charismatic @SionIV.
    Drow are elves. They are very graceful by nature, very beautiful and exotic as well and by beautiful I mean it by the generally objective way.

    They have very well shaped features and bodies, beautiful and combed hair, they like to dress in revealing and elegant ways, plus they can be quite expressive with themselves.

    A Dwarf can be a leader with 16 Charisma. That's above average for a PnP character.

    I agree that any race should be able to become a Paladin.
    That's one of ADnD's nonsense that some rationalize it as "flavor". Which I disagree.

    If a Dwarf can be a Lawful Good Fighter/Cleric with 16 Cha. There's no real reason why they cannot be Paladins.
    Why can't Moradin have Dwarven Paladins for example?

    My opinion why only Humans can be Paladins is because otherwise, Humans would have nothing special for them. With that restriction, they have a special class just for them.

    I was pointing out that if Drow can be of good alignment (Ala Drizzt) then i don't see why a dwarf can't be charismatic.
  • TwaniTwani Member Posts: 640
    Weirdly, though, Earth Genasi of all people (Planescape campaign, later added as a Forgotten Realms core race) are allowed to be paladins. As far as I'm aware in second edition, they're the only race besides human that are allowed (or were assimars eventually allowed?).

    ...And Earth Genasi are pretty rough spoken and not the most charming beings around. So, I don't know.
    SionIVCrevsDaak
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,579
    Dwarves are "dour and taciturn" according to their in-game descriptions. It's just part of their nature to be gruff, just like elves are naturally athletic (up to 19 dext) and halfings are physically weaker (17 str max), and so on.
    jackjack
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    "Dour and taciturn" is code for "Realistic in their expectations". Dwarves don't expect any heavenly help, even the priests. They know only too well that you only gain advantage through the sweat of your brow and blood on your knuckles. Paladins are idealists, Dwarves are realists.

    Maybe Paladinhood is something Dwarf adolescents go through before they understand how the world really works, like modernday students and political activism.
    jackjackcognoscentusRAM021
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited March 2014
    @SionIV

    Drizzt being good has nothing to do with it.
    Drizzt isn't very charismatic either, his 3E stats are: Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14.

    Like I said, a Dwarf can be charismatic with 16 charisma. That's 2 points below the maximum.
    They just can't be as charismatic as humans because their appearance, personalities and culture holds them back.

    Not sure about ADnD but 3E has the Gold Dwarves subrace which are basically the "merchant and noble" dwarves instead of the "gruff and mining" Dwarf (stereo)types.
    Those get a -2 to DEX instead so they can be as charismatic as Humans.

    I mean even Sarevok has only 15 CHA and he's considered quite charismatic. He was popular and run for Grand Duke.
    SwordsNotWordsRAM021
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    edited March 2014
    Archaos said:

    @‌SionIV

    Drizzt being good has nothing to do with it.
    Drizzt isn't very charismatic either, his 3E stats are: Str 13, Dex 20, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 14.

    Like I said, a Dwarf can be charismatic with 16 charisma. That's 2 points below the maximum.
    They just can't be as charismatic as humans because their appearance, personalities and culture holds them back.

    Not sure about ADnD but 3E has the Gold Dwarves subrace which are basically the "merchant and noble" dwarves instead of the "gruff and mining" Dwarf (stereo)types.
    Those get a -2 to DEX instead so they can be as charismatic as Humans.

    I mean even Sarevok has only 15 CHA and he's considered quite charismatic. He was popular and run for Grand Duke.

    You really don't understand what i'm trying to tell you?

    Drizzt is a GOOD ALIGNMENT drow.

    It's obviously very RARE and not very likely to find a dwarf paladin with high charisma. Just as it is unlikely to find a good alignment drow, demon, or undead.

    This has nothing to do with Drizzt or anyone elses charisma. The reason i used Drizzt for the argument is that drows are evil by nature, and it's rare to the point of mary sue to find a good alignment drow. But if good alignment drow do exist, it wouldn't surprise me if there were some very charismatic dwarfs out there.
    RAM021
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited March 2014
    @SionIV
    ...I still don't understand your points.

    It's rare, yes. Though certainly possible and Dwarves can be charismatic, more charismatic than Sarevok even, stat-wise.

    And your other question was "why can't dwarves have 18 charisma?" because of the reasons I pointed out.
    The same reason a halfling can't have 19 STR or a human 19 DEX. Because of physiological and other reasons.

    Dwarves are just not AS charismatic by nature.
    elminsterjackjackSwordsNotWords
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    Archaos said:

    @SionIV
    ...I still don't understand your points.

    It's rare, yes. Though certainly possible and Dwarves can be charismatic, more charismatic than Sarevok even, stat-wise.

    And your other question was "why can't dwarves have 18 charisma?" because of the reasons I pointed out.
    The same reason a halfling can't have 19 STR or a human 19 DEX. Because of physiological and other reasons.

    Dwarves are just not AS charismatic by nature.

    I do agree when it comes to halflings not being as strong, or dwarfs not being as agile. But charisma is a stat that you can't really measure in that way, same with wisdom and intelligence. Physically i can see the limits, but when it comes to mentally (Intellect, Charisma, Wisdom) i really don't see why they should be there. Same with half-orcs, there are some intelligent half orcs out there, with some of them even being mages.

    A halfling will never be as strong as a half-orc.
    A dwarf will never be as agile as an elf.
    But there is nothing that says a dwarf/halfling/gnome/anything can't be more charismatic, intelligent or wise.
  • CorvinoCorvino Member Posts: 2,269
    We're still discussing 2E here. It is that way because they say it is. It's a fairly arbitrary rule system based partly on mythology, fantasy literature and trying to make a balanced game. Paladins were only invented because humans got shafted by having no real advantages.

    Later editions change things radically. Some people actually object to that.
    SionIVjackjackelementCrevsDaak
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited March 2014
    @SionIV‌

    ...I'm not sure I'm following. Or you just cannot accept the flavor behind it.

    No matter how much it tries a dwarf will never be as graceful or charming or beautiful or elegant as an elf.

    And the rules and flavor says that Dwarves can't be as charismatic as a really charismatic elf or whatever.

    Some rare dwarves can be more charismatic than a human or elf (16 CHA vs 10 CHA) but flavor and rule-wise, a dwarf won't be more charismatic than a really charismatic human or elf (16 CHA vs 18 CHA).

    And Half-Orcs get an INT penalty because of their Orcish blood. Orcs aren't as mentally developed as other races. They're animalistic and savages.

    A Halfling getting a WIS penalty (in ADnD) is because they're impatient and they're not considered wise. They're more tricksters, playful, childish perhaps, impatient and carefree by nature.

    Also a Half-Orc can get 16 INT. That's still quite intelligent, more than the average person.
    elminsterjackjackAristillius
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    While a dwarf can not have 18 CHA, a dwarf can have better CHA for other dwarves. I mean, in some splatbooks of characters, I remember seeing CHA 13 (18 for halflings) or (17 for other dwarves) stuff like that. Such character will be highly charismatic to his own race, for one reason or another, but not so great when dealing for other races.

    Some dwarves in the Hobbit movie look very handsome. Kili/Fili and Thorin actually look very sexy, err, if you're into hair+beard thing and stuff. (apparently one female elven fighter likes her men hairy in the second movie, lol) They have near maximum CHA for a dwarf. But they are the best of the stock, they have the royal blood. Other dwarves look comical and are like charicatures, with pot bellies, huge noses, ugly faces, etc. They sure have less than average charisma.

    JuliusBorisovCrevsDaak
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited March 2014
    I think with regards to the rules that there probably is dwarves with higher charisma then 16 and probably is halflings with higher then 17 wisdom. But the rules aren't made for the exceptions they are made to represent the race as a whole , and therefore the stats make sense(at least to me).
    lunar said:

    Some dwarves in the Hobbit movie look very handsome. Kili/Fili and Thorin actually look very sexy, err, if you're into hair+beard thing and stuff. (apparently one female elven fighter likes her men hairy in the second movie, lol) They have near maximum CHA for a dwarf. But they are the best of the stock, they have the royal blood. Other dwarves look comical and are like charicatures, with pot bellies, huge noses, ugly faces, etc. They sure have less than average charisma.

    id say that's the more an aspect of the films rather basic approach to design when it comes to character portrayal rather then anything notable about the dwarves themselves. I wouldn't read to much into it.

    elminsterjackjack
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Because AD&D is riddled with rules which are simply there on the logic of 'because I say so' by the creators.

    If you are cheating to make a dwarf a paladin you can cheat to give him 17 charisma. Big deal.
    ArchaosSchneidend
  • DregothofTyrDregothofTyr Member Posts: 229
    Twani said:

    Weirdly, though, Earth Genasi of all people (Planescape campaign, later added as a Forgotten Realms core race) are allowed to be paladins. As far as I'm aware in second edition, they're the only race besides human that are allowed (or were assimars eventually allowed?).

    ...And Earth Genasi are pretty rough spoken and not the most charming beings around. So, I don't know.

    Only humans, Aasimar, and Earth Genasi can be paladins, though the Planewalker's Handbook says that the Earth Genasi paladins basically go against their whole race to become that way, and are very rare. It even recommends limiting Earth Genasi paladins to NPCs only for this reason.
  • luskanluskan Member Posts: 269
    A Dwarf Cavalier, specializing in axes sounds like it could be a lot of fun. You could rollplay it that a demon (like a pit fiend) destroyed your home and you're out to reclaim it.

    Just don't name yourself Balin. We all know how well that ended..
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190


    It even recommends limiting Earth Genasi paladins to NPCs only for this reason.

    Things like this are what make me scrunch up my face with incredulity when people say the books' recommendations and are high points of 2E. What kind of design principle is that when the suggestion is to make the PCs less special than the random jerks populating the world? PCs should always have the opportunity to be as special, if not more special, than NPCs.
    RAM021
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