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How BG1 NPCs are treated in BG2 - huge spoilers

13

Comments

  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,186
    dustbubsy said:

    Well, he did run after the bridesmaid later...

    You're right of course. I was just jesting...

    dustbubsyCrevsDaakMontresor_SP
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    dustbubsy said:

    Perhaps. With regards to Silke, he does say that the witch had it coming. It's not like a Chaotic Neutral working for an evil mistress is unknown. I'd say he probably knew she was shady, just not to the point of murdering people. Are all Good aligned NPCs clueless for following an evil Charname around?

    Naivete is one thing, but BG2 turns him into a skirt-chasing Biff the Understudy. I think it's a bit of a disservice.

    I think the fact that he is Chaotic Neutral, despite having (imho) the demeanor of a Good-aligned character, is actually proof of his naivety.

    He's literally too derpy to be good!

    BlackravenQuartz
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 688
    Lemernis said:



    Coran and Safana - Possibly the biggest fail of all. Two of my favorite NPCs--and ones that I really don't see turning on the PC. If they had been evil, maybe. I suppose Safana has it in her as a CN character. But Coran? Nah.

    Coran doesn't betray you. Nothing about him seems inconsistent from what little you learn of him in BG1. As for Safana, I wouldn't get sentimental about her, as she clearly wasn't too precious about you.

    elminsterbooinyoureyesjackjackThrasymachus
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,425
    dustbubsy said:

    The Garrick cameo is quite funny but I think it's a bit unfair to his character. As far as I recall nothing in BG1 suggested he was so clueless, the guy has 14 Wisdom after all, on par with Xan and Rasaad.

    He's always presented as a bit naive IMO - when you first meet him, he's raving about how amazing and talented Silke is, when it should've been obvious to anyone with decent wisdom that she's a manipulative succubus.

    Quite frankly, I think the original devs screwed up by giving him 14 wisd - he seems like the stereotypical high int, low wisd character IMO. At the very least, it would've been more appropriate if his int and wisd scores were switched.

    booinyoureyesQuartz
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    Low wisdom would have made his lore plummet - I hate to say it, but that may have been a factor.

    booinyoureyesQuartz
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,157
    edited March 2014
    Evidently Garrick must be fairly well versed about the lore of the Realms and/or current events, gossip, etc., because the well-above-average Wis score sure doesn't come in the form of common sense, or an ability to read deeper motivations in others.

    jackjackAristilliusbooinyoureyesQuartz
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,425
    jackjack said:

    Low wisdom would have made his lore plummet - I hate to say it, but that may have been a factor.

    Even so, they still could've gone as low as 10 wisd before he would've suffered a penalty.

    Right now, he has 13 int and 14 wisd, which seem to be senseless stats, since he clearly isn't as wise as someone like Jaheira, and he doesn't get a bonus from either of those numbers anyway. If he had 13 int and only 10 wisd, or even if his actual int and wisd scores were simply switched, it would've been more befitting his personality without causing him any penalty.

    Quartz
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    You know what is kind of interesting? That no one has discussed Sarevok yet.

    He technically kinda/sorta/maybe fits the criteria of "returning NPC"

  • CatoblepasCatoblepas Member Posts: 96
    definitely a missed opportunity. Considering there are no evil-aligned thieves in the game, he would be an invaluable addition to most evil-aligned parties.

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    shawne said:

    The turnover makes sense - if you were playing BG2 for the first time, you'd naturally be inclined to try and continue with the same party you had in BG1. Why bother making new NPCs at all, then? This way, some fan favorites return, but there's still room to explore BG2's cast.

    I've always RPed "missing" party members who don't turn up in BG2 (like Branwen or Yeslick) as having died during the final battle with Sarevok; it's a convenient way to write out anyone whose absence would've otherwise been noticed.

    I like the idea @shawne‌ suggested.
    Aside from the game disallowing it for playability reasons, I feel like it would have mad sense for CHARNAME to have amassed a bigger group to face Sarevok in the end rather than the 6 person party the game limits you to. Branwen, Xan, Yeslick, etc could have died fighting him.
    Would also prove Xan was right all along!

    Blackraven
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @booinyoureyes: I think a lot of that depends on your roster choices. If you went into the Undercity with the "canon" party (Jaheira, Khalid, Imoen, Dynaheir and Minsc), there's no reason to assume you took any casualties; by the same token, an Evil party of Dorn, Montaron, Edwin, Viconia and Xzar could've walked away without a scratch. But let's say you take Xan, Branwen, Yeslick, Kivan and Alora: you could then conceivably make a case for a Total Party Kill, with CHARNAME as the sole survivor.

  • vyvexthornevyvexthorne Member Posts: 54
    I just have to pretend it's just some alternate universe of the BG1 universe or else I get too frustrated.

    It was rather interesting though... in my very first play through ever of BG1 I did use MInsc, Jaheira and Imoen. When BGII came out and I imported my game I thought it was so cool that it customized to my playthrough.. Though I was confused as to why Khalid was dead on the table and Minsc seemed to still be mourning Dynaheir I didn't really give it too much thought..
    I thought it was so cool in fact that I totally decided to hold off on playing BGII and played a brand new playthrough of BG1 picking different characters. Once I finished and had other companions all beefed up I excitedly exported the game and ..... Minsc, Jaheria and Imoen.. what?. I felt so betrayed.

    Quayle has to be the worst. I mean he's usually the second thing you do in BGII. Dungeon, then circus tent and there's my old friend Quayle. "Hey Quayle why didn't you ever mention your niece?" "Quayle? Buddy?.. Don't you recognize me?' "Say something!" Obviously most don't pick him just because you find him so late in the game. Tiax, Alora, Skie and Quayle are probably hardly ever used by anyone. But.. if you did use Quayle. And you did level him and grow to like him and import the saved game then it feels like a major betrayal. He doesn't even recognize you. It's the same guy.. same picture, same voice actor. Why doesn't he recognize me?.. I was just with him. It hasn't been years since we last saw each other. We were just traveling together. When did he have time to join a circus?

    Garrick.. People are always really down on the bards. Don't like the bards in BG. I think it's because they don't know how to use bards. I always use a bard, need a bard. Don't know how to play without a bard. I usually choose Garrick. Just because I get him early, he's good aligned and I usually play good. Eldoth is a bit of a better bard... but by the time you get to him (if you use bards) you've already beefed up Garrick. He's got all the spells you want him to have. You'd have to go buy or try to find those spells again and that's a hassle. Plus you have to go get Skie at some point. The only reason to ever get skie is if you have never done it before. Why would you need another thief?.. the game has way too many thieves. Especially if your main CharName is a thief... geez.. it's like a rogue party gone rogue.

    Garrick's just another guy who doesn't seem to remember traveling with me. He should be grateful I used him because so many people didn't and this is how he repays me? Betrayer!

    Ajantis. A guy who gets a good kill count and he can use large swords.. or in bgt bastard swords.. I guess EE made him a two handed sword guy. As a bastard sword and shield guy he's really, really useful since there's two wonderful swords that he can use and a plethora of great shields.. As a two handed guy I don't think he'd be as useful. Anyway.. he's just a dead guy in a field now. How'd he get there? Why wasn't he in the dungeon with me? I clearly was just with this guy.

    And then there's the others I feel really got shafted.

    Kivan.. Kivan was awesome in baldur's gate. He was probably one of the best characters to get. Give him a bow and the bracers of archery and the guy would always have the most Xp percent and the most kills by the end of the game. Who wouldn't use him? And he doesn't even get to make an appearance in BGII.. Just left out in the rain. Where did he go?..

    Yeslick. This guy is pretty awesome. Most people don't get to pick him up though because they take a full party to the mines. Which is really sad because that means he just gets drowned down there. I always pick the guy up and put him in the final party. I guess they assumed everyone just left him in the mine.





    The characters that I tend to use now aren't at all used in BGII. I understand that most people on their first playthrough will most likely stick to the first companions they come across that fit into their party. And those companions are most likely to be Imoen, Minsc, Dynaeir, Khalid and Jaheria. However, for those that continued to play and experiment with companions these characters are most likely the last they'd choose now which makes the transition to BGII all that much harder.






    DelvarianbooinyoureyesQuartz
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,425

    Obviously most don't pick him just because you find him so late in the game.

    I almost always use Quayle, at least temporarily. He works great as a backup spellcaster for a mid-level party. Once my main mage and cleric reach the higher levels, though, I feel he becomes a bit unnecessary, plus his low HPs become a hassle against end-game enemies.


    Kivan.. Kivan was awesome in baldur's gate. He was probably one of the best characters to get. Give him a bow and the bracers of archery and the guy would always have the most Xp percent and the most kills by the end of the game. Who wouldn't use him? And he doesn't even get to make an appearance in BGII.. Just left out in the rain. Where did he go?..

    Kivan is a staple of my good-aligned parties in BG1. Likewise, Shar-Teel is a staple of my evil parties. Both are standout characters with memorable personas, yet both get completely shafted in BG2.

    Most people don't get to pick him up though because they take a full party to the mines. Which is really sad because that means he just gets drowned down there.

    That's what Faldorn is for. ;-)

    After all, her bio does say that she's willing to sacrifice "anything" for her cause. :-) Besides, she returns in BG2 as a baddie, so it's safe to assume that she must've found her own way out.


    I understand that most people on their first playthrough will most likely stick to the first companions they come across that fit into their party. And those companions are most likely to be Imoen, Minsc, Dynaeir, Khalid and Jaheria.

    All it takes is for someone to give either Kivan (in place of Khalid) or Branwen or Yeslick (in place of Jaheira) a try, and then it's bye bye canon, hello efficiency! And that's assuming that the player is playing good-aligned - an evil-aligned player would almost certainly never use the canon characters all the way through to the end.


    Anyway, for anyone who hasn't seen it, I strongly suggest checking out Vasculio's method for importing BG1 NPCs into BG2: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/28968/using-ee-keeper-to-use-your-favorite-bg1ee-npc-party-in-bg2ee/p1 . It has the potential to substantially improve (though it can never be perfect) the transition between BG1 and BG2.

    Blackravenbooinyoureyes
  • jacobtanjacobtan Member Posts: 655
    edited April 2014
    I don't mind the so-called "late-game" NPCs because they can be obtained early with metagaming knowledge even without modding, but I usually find myself with the same old party of PC (Fighter/Kensai/Ranger), Imoen (Thief/Mage), Kivan, Xan, Coran and Yeslick.

    Here's my take on the treatment of BG NPCs:

    Imoen - I hated the T7/M8 dual-class. I don't always dual Imoen, so I want to be the one making the decision on whether to dual class, and also the level that she duals. Unlike PC, she couldn't choose a kit, and I would have allocated her skill points differently. I always mod Imoen into another flavor of T/M to my liking if I'm taking her in BG2. She's whiny and needy in BG2, but I'm cool with it.

    Minsc - Don't like him in both his BG and BG2 incarnations. Loud, annoying, and underpowered compared to the other characters. But the story of his transition to BG2 is believable enough.

    Jaheira - Still the same know-it-all in BG. The struggles played out in the game add depth to her character, and as much as I dislike BG romances, she is fairly well-done and developed.

    Khalid - It was a wasted opportunity that he was just killed so abruptly. If he had the chance to outgrow his insecurity and mature into a confident warrior in BG2, it would have made a great story.

    Dynaheir - Never liked her. Used her once, long, long ago, then decided she wasn't very effective and stopped using her thereafter. Too arrogant for a mage of her low power, so good riddance.

    Edwin - Mixed feelings on him. He has always struck me as a misfit. He doesn't look bald (Red Wizards are bald with tattooed heads), he's very bumbling for someone of 18 Int, his babbling suggests he has some form of insanity like Xzar (CE alignment) and yet he is of LE alignment, his goals and motivations in the BG world (hunting Dynaheir, wandering Athkatla) are unclear, and I never understood how he'd end up working with Mae'Var. He's got some funny lines though.

    Viconia - She was pretty well done. Believable stories of her life in the surface world, and the romance adds depth to her when she reveals what happened to her brother. She's evil and malicious, but she's not one-dimensional. I like that.

    Faldorn - Forgettable in BG and nearly as forgettable in BG2. There was a little loss of continuity since she didn't seem to remember you, but she's an eco-terrorist (Shadow Druid) and she knows nothing except committing acts of eco-terrorism to further her cause, against anyone who stands in her way, including PC.

    Garrick - I liked his cameo. He was prone to misadventure and he was himself to the last. And it was a happy ending, better than several other NPCs who got slaughtered by PC. The BG gods were kind to him.

    Coran - The intrigue with Safana was believable, but there were gaps in the story and Coran didn't seem like he was in control of his mental faculties. It felt worse for me because I always take Coran and I liked him ("Luck be a Lady"). Poorly done.

    Safana - The betrayal was in character, so no issues with it. My gripe is with the way Coran was written in BG2. She seems to use seduction and guile to get her way, so it was fitting that she died by her own schemes. Didn't feel sorry for her.

    Xzar - I thought he was basically an Edwin clone. He didn't feel all that "Chaotic Evil" in BG, and felt like "Lawful Evil" in BG2. Though his lines in BG were funny, he sounded bland in BG2. I'd rather have him replacing Edwin as the resident Evil Mage. His presence in Athkatla, with a house and apprentices, sounded unbelievable, since he was just around Candlekeep during BG time. Even if the Zhents wanted him to monitor the Harpers, it sounded unlikely that he'd set up base and even take on apprentices.

    Montaron - As with Xzar, story about him in Athkatla was not convincing. But his death served a purpose... I don't really like the Harpers in general, and his treatment just reinforced this point.

    Ajantis - Neutral to him. He was puritanical but relatively low-key in BG, though I didn't find him very effective. His death in BG2 was believable enough, so no issues.

    Quayle - Disjointed. This is the jerk who kept insisting that he's so smart in BG, yet suddenly developed some sensibility, started a circus, adopted an elf and even raised her up. There is also a mismatch in background - his BG biography says he's a believer of Baravar Cloakshadow (gnome god of illusions) but in BG2, he seems to be a believer of Baervan Wildwanderer (gnome god of forests). I know gnomes do revere their entire pantheon but changing the patron deity seems weird when he's a cleric.

    Tiax - Pretty okay. No complaints. I never knew why he'd worship Cyric when he's a gnome. But I guess there is only one main evil god in the gnome pantheon and he might prefer other choices...

    LemerniselementMontresor_SP
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,745
    edited June 2014
    I actually played BG2 first because I never really got into BG1 as a child/ teenager.
    So let me do a reversed take on the main post, just because I can UvU
    Also, my game(s) are heavily modded, so I am not a 100% sure anymore what actually is canon and what not, so please forgive me if I mix something up :I

    Coran - Until my current playthough, I never took him with me. He just came off to me as a boring asshole who treats women like objects (also, he is fucking ugly for an elf, like come on). The impression he left on me in BG2 helped much either though I never really understood (or really cared) what happens during his and Safana's quest in BG2.

    Dynaheir - She was dead, so I had no opinion of her to begin with.

    Imoen - She is so annoying in BG1, the German dub was awful in the first game and Imoen really got one of the worst voices *ever*. Other than that, not much to her. She follows you around like a puppy. Thank god for the NPC Project and giving her more depths.
    While we are at it, let's talk about her "transformation": I have some very very dark headcanons about what actually happened to her in Irenicus imprisonment (I read a very twisted fanfiction on that topic once :I ). Let's just say that her becoming less childish and more angsty was an absolute logic result and she could have turned out *much* worse.

    Khalid - Pretty much the same as Dynaheir. I am glad they killed him off for BG2 though, while I like his character, he dies annoyingly often.

    Minsc - Minsc is always the coolest, try not to convince me otherwise.

    Faldorn - Never had her with me (yet).

    Safana - Same as Faldorn. Though I don't like her whole "men are just objects" attitude :I She comes off as a male sex-fantasy -.-

    Edwin - Favourite character in BG2, still hilarious in BG1. Again, kudos to the NPC Project for adding his ADORABLE affection for Alora x3

    Montaron - Well, you only meet him dead in BG2, so bleh. He became one of my favourite characters in BG1 though :) (I have a thing for halflings, if you can't tell :P )

    Tiax - Didn't take him with me in BG1 but I thought he was hilarious in BG2.

    Viconia - Easily one of my favourite characters period. I really like how they managed to give her so much character in BG2 and didn't just reduce her to another sex-fantasy. The people who wrote her character and background deserve all of the awards.

    Xzar - Hilarious, though I thought he was rather annoying in BG2.

    Post edited by Buttercheese on
    element
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,157
    edited June 2014
    Yeah, that presumed canon for BG1 is foisted upon us by BG2. I guess the devs figured (correctly) that Minsc would be immensely popular. And so then you can't have Minsc without Dyna (i.e., they're a forced pair).

    It certainly would have been an improvement (to my mind anyway) if they had allowed importation of the actual party we finish BG1 with. But that would have been way more dialogue to write. Banters and interjections, maybe romances, for all 26 BG1 NPCs plus the ones in BG2 they probably decided was too much.

    ButtercheeseQuartzCrevsDaak
  • Fina92Fina92 Member Posts: 212
    Moreover, if it really is meant to be the same Faldorn and Quayle from BG1, then WHY OH WHY is there not a single dialouge choice that hints a recognition between them and Charname? Stuff like that bugs me immensly

    QuartzCrevsDaakLemernisDelvarian
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    JosefineS said:

    Moreover, if it really is meant to be the same Faldorn and Quayle from BG1, then WHY OH WHY is there not a single dialouge choice that hints a recognition between them and Charname? Stuff like that bugs me immensly

    Of course they're meant to be the same characters, but the devs were allowing for the (probably quite significant number of) players who create a new protagonist for BG2 instead of carrying forward a protagonist from BG1 (or who bought BG2 without ever having BG1). Obviously a new protagonist might not have met Faldorn or Quayle before. Also, even if a protagonist is carried forward from BG1, s/he hasn't necessarily met Faldorn or Quayle - you can just ignore them both in BG1, i.e. walk past without ever bothering to speak to them, if you so choose.

    The ideal solution, obviously, would have been to have different dialogues depending upon whether the protagonist was carried forward from BG1 or created anew in BG2, and perhaps even depending upon whether the protagonist had actually chosen to speak to Faldorn and Quayle in BG1 ... but that would have required carrying new global status flags over in the savegame (which I don't think existed in original BG1, so it would've needed a new BG1 patch), and would obviously have required a little more work writing alternative dialogue trees.

    The original BG2 devs therefore didn't bother with the extra work and ignored the possibility that the protagonist would have met Faldorn and Quayle before. You might accuse them of laziness, but hey, we know they were working under considerable resource pressure and had to skimp on some details to get the job done. Under the circumstances, I reckon the original BG2 devs did a pretty darn good job, and I don't hold it against them that they skipped a few bells-and-whistles.

    Perhaps, however, the Overhaul team might be persuaded that attending to some minor inconsistencies like this would indeed be a genuine enhancement which ought to be included in the Enhanced Editions. Let's conjure someone from the official team to ask an opinion ... er, I'm not sure who to ask ... how about @Avenger_teambg‌?

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,745
    edited June 2014
    Actually, you do get dialouge options like this for when you meet Xzar at the docks:
    image
    One could argue that Xzar is pretty hard to miss in the game but I think Quayle is impossible to miss. I just don't know, feels more like someone forgot to add dialouge otions like this for the others. If I recall correctly, you can tell Edwin as well that you used to travel together and he simply (pretends) to have forgotten you.

    But yeah, it always bugged me that the game just assumes that I took Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir with me. I would really like it, if the game would detect whom I actually had with me.

    Here are some ideas on how to implement them:

    - If you didn't took Khalid and Jaheira or Minsc and Dynaheir with you, Khalid and Dynaheir died differently. Maybe Dynaheir got captured by the Thayans after all and Khalid was cursed/ gets cursed by Baron Ployer instead of Jaheira. Imagine how interesting a quest would be, where you have to go rescue them (but fail/ come to late) or where you have to avenge them!

    - If you took one of the NPC's with you that do not appear in BG2, have them broken out by themselves or never being captured in the first place. Maybe Charname could discover some traces in Irenecus' dungeon or something? Or maybe you find their corpses instead of Khalid's.

    - If you took one of the NPC's with you that do apear as non-companions in BG2: Either they broke out, managed to flee while Charname got captured or they splitted up with you in the first place. Alternatively, have them appear in the start-dungeon and after you get out/ you meet them, they say "fuck all of this, you are nothing but trouble" or something along those lines and leave you.

    Just some rough ideas.

  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,157
    Unfortunately, there are strict contractual limitations to what Beamdog can do to change original content. So these good ideas would be have to be carried out by the modding community, I believe.

    jackjackButtercheeseCrevsDaakCatoblepas
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,745
    Yeah, I know. I would love to help working on a mod like this, I can't program though :/

  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,745
    edited June 2014
    @abacus‌: Oh my god xD

    @Jaxsbudgie‌:
    The real reason why Shar-Teel didn't cameo in BG2:
    image
    (Source: [XXX])

    jackjackCrevsDaakJuliusBorisovRavenslight
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,425

    Yeah, I know. I would love to help working on a mod like this, I can't program though :/

    One of our forum posters, @Vasculio‌, came up with a method for importing BG1 NPCs into BG2, which I expanded upon and outlined in a thread here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/31566/here-s-my-bg2-beginning-updated

    I was essentially able to create my own "canon" party that included Dynaheir, Kivan, and Branwen, with Minsc and Jaheira not even present in the game, and no mention of Khalid's or Dynaheir's deaths.

    Buttercheese
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