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In general, is a Thief required?

For most of all the IE games. If I wanted to solo the game as say, a druid or something like that, would I be able play the game without thieving skills (detect/remove traps and lockpicking) or the knock mage spell, or would I be missing out on good loot from chests / locked areas that would be game changing? Just wondering what you guys thought about it. I really wanted to try to solo the game as a druid or something similar. I just don't know how vital a thief is to the party, especially when you don't have access to the mage spell counterparts to their abilities.
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Comments

  • tennisgolfbolltennisgolfboll Member Posts: 457
    You can easily do it without a thief.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    You'll have to work that magic and muscle+ stamina to survive traps, and certain dungeons will be more challenging... so go for it!
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,265
    I think it depends on your play style. If you are very OC about being completionist, like I am, then a thief is almost mandatory. If you don't mind missing a few things then playing without a thief becomes much easier.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited July 2014
    @Tresset I am pretty OCD about not missing important things, but if its not that major then I have no problem paying that penalty of not having a thief. I just wondered if in the BG and IWD series if there is some sword of awesomeness, hammer of ass smashing or armor of invincibility I will be missing because I can't open a lock or access an area. I have no problem triggering a lightning bolt trap and diving for cover, although some of these traps may pose problems. It is mostly missing out on something awesome that bothers me. Not a few gp, spells and a +1 longsword mind you, just the important stuff. Thanks for the input guys. It is greatly appreciated.
    Post edited by Meanbunny on
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Well, you can do without the Thief, but it will be very difficult at some points and it will require a huge lot of either metagaming-knowledge or furious reloading.
    Traps will be a nuisance, but without the ability to open locks, you can miss a lot.
    Of course, there are ways of compensating for this, mostly either with brutal power (Strength enhancing items/potions for lock breaking, Constitution enhancing to get regeneration and just out-heal any trap damage) or with magic (predominantly Wizard's Lock spell or various protection/buff spells to counter traps)

    While it's possible to beat the game with almost any kit or class combo, if you want to solo, I would recommend some of the usual power-playing class combos ... like:
    - Fighter/Thief (pretty obvious)
    - Fighter/Mage (work around thievery with brute power and magic)
    - Cleric/Mage (work around thievery with magic)
    - Paladin/Barbarian (brute power+buffs)
    - Monk (immunities)
    ...

    Or, here's a heretic idea...what about playing with a Thief kit solo?
    I did and I found it much more satisfying than pure brutes...
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited July 2014
    @Southpaw Thanks for the insight. I have thought about playing something like a Swashbuckler solo but lately I have been focusing on what I believe have been perceived as the weaker, more underpowered classes of the game, the druid and bard. I just have always felt compelled in every RPG and MMO I have played to make the most unpopular or unviable race/class combo playable and not only playable but effective. For some reason, lately I have gotten the urge to make it happen with a druid. I just wanted to consult you guys here first so that I didn't play halfway through and then begin to regret my decision due to the lack of thief abilities being too much of a problem.

    On a side note, I am really glad that there is a modern forum to discuss these games that we love so much. I am really beginning to get back into the swing of things again.
    Post edited by Meanbunny on
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited July 2014
    @the_spyder You know that is an awesome Idea. I really like the idea of hiring a thief. That would work wonders in the BG series. Unfortunately though in the IWD series, if you start out solo you are stuck solo. No NPC's to recruit into the party. I know that IWD2 had a recruitable NPC mod, but IWD1 you are stuck with what you start with. I think IWD would of been a so much better game if it had recruitable NPC's. For now I will try to think of a better solution for that series.
    Post edited by Meanbunny on
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @Meanbunny - well, if you really want to play THE underdog, play a Wizard Slayer.
    Or, as I have suggested - a Thief. Thieves can be experienced anywhere on a scale from "Total failure" to "Absolutely amazing", depending on how well you play.

    As for Druids, I would play with the Avenger (gets some nifty mage spells) or Shapeshifter, without mods (the usual Druid underdog) for more of a challenge.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    @Southpaw What makes a Wizard Slayer an underdog? In my opinion casters can be some of the most dangerous opponents in the game, I think their ability to interrupt spellcasting is pretty useful. I have played through with a charname Undead Hunter. Can you get more underdog than that? >.<
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited July 2014
    The Undead Hunter is fine. Lay on Hands is decent but far from a defining ability to miss out on.

    The Wizard Slayer is 'bad' because it misses out on a huge amount of equipment for a very slowly progressing magic resistance and spell failure, which is not great because hitting a properly buffed mage is 90% of the difficulty in dealing with them in the first place.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    @Artemius_I I guess the developers didn't intend you to be dealing with sufficiently prebuffed mages when designing the Wizard Slayer kit. I can't remember if mages prebuff or not without a special AI improvement mod. I think it was called Sword Coast Stratagems?
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    edited July 2014
    Mage has Knock, a level 2 spell, which does roughly the same thing as "Disarm Traps" thief ability.
    Cleric has Detect Traps, a level 3 spell, which does roughly the same thing as "Disarm Traps" thief ability.
    Dispel and True Sight, among other things, undo enemy invisibility, much like the "Detect Invisibility" thief skill.

    You miss disarm traps, and set traps.

    Rangers has stealth, and in-game items host a plethora and variety of invisible making items, with or without charges, or even spell scrolls and familiar abilities. And bards can pick pockets, too.

    But i say, NO. You cannot run a game (at least easily and efficiently), without a good thief. Some traps HAVE to be disarmed, some traps in certain fights HAVE to be set. Or else...
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026

    Mage has Knock, a level 2 spell, which does roughly the same thing as "Disarm Traps" thief ability.

    Correct me, if I'm wrong, but Knock only opens chests and doors. There is no magical way to disarm traps. Except for pre-buffing immunities and/or healing them afterwards.
  • elementelement Member Posts: 833
    edited July 2014
    well if your being strict about it
    thieves can disarm traps(knock wont do this) which no one else can all there other powers can be replicated else were, including the detection of traps. The thing is though thieves can do it all in one package.

    Do you require one? not if you don't mind occasionally having to tank traps. Do they make things easier? yes significantly
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486

    Mage has Knock, a level 2 spell, which does roughly the same thing as "Disarm Traps" thief ability.
    Cleric has Detect Traps, a level 3 spell, which does roughly the same thing as "Disarm Traps" thief ability.
    Dispel and True Sight, among other things, undo enemy invisibility, much like the "Detect Invisibility" thief skill.

    You miss disarm traps, and set traps.

    Rangers has stealth, and in-game items host a plethora and variety of invisible making items, with or without charges, or even spell scrolls and familiar abilities. And bards can pick pockets, too.

    But i say, NO. You cannot run a game (at least easily and efficiently), without a good thief. Some traps HAVE to be disarmed, some traps in certain fights HAVE to be set. Or else...

    I think the solo character best capable of performing typical Thief duties would be a Cleric/Mage multiclass. You get Knock (not easy to come by early on btw) for opening locks, True Sight/Seeing for detecting illusions, Inivisibility spells and Sanctuary for stealth, Find Traps for trap detection and Sanctuary for (pseudo-)stealth, and spells like Skull Trap and Glyph of Warding as traps you can set. You'd only miss out on disarming traps.

    One problem is the fact that all these spells might leave insufficient space in your spellbooks for other spells you'd like to cast, at least at lower levels. Kitting as a Priest of Helm would help because they get free True Sights.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    There are a couple of key places where there are instant-death traps, so merely tanking those traps without disarming them would be game over in solo. However (although I haven't tested this exhaustively), if your protagonist can first transform to a mustard jelly (which has 100% Magic Resistance), then you should survive tanking such traps ... that transformation requires either the level 4 Mage spell Polymorph Self, or (for BG2 only) the Cloak of the Sewers (which is fortunately wearable by anyone except a Wizard Slayer). In BG1, if you can't cast arcane, then I don't know how you'd survive instant-death traps without a Thief to disarm them.

    Also, @Meanbunny‌ is keen not to miss major game-changing items. There are lots of major items hidden in locked containers in BG. A Thief can obviously unlock containers, and arcane casters (other than an Abjurer) can use Knock, so they can reliably obtain such items. Other characters can sometimes break a lock by magically boosting STR, but that doesn't work on the tougher locks (even with maxed-out STR). Therefore, I reckon that @Meanbunny‌ will be missing out on stuff he wants to get unless he plays (or recruits) either a Thief or an arcane caster.

    Can the series be soloed as a Druid? Yes. But can it be completed in a manner which will satisfy someone who describes himself as "pretty OCD about not missing important things"? I doubt it.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    There are a couple of key places where there are instant-death traps, so merely tanking those traps without disarming them would be game over in solo. However (although I haven't tested this exhaustively), if your protagonist can first transform to a mustard jelly (which has 100% Magic Resistance), then you should survive tanking such traps ... that transformation requires either the level 4 Mage spell Polymorph Self, or (for BG2 only) the Cloak of the Sewers (which is fortunately wearable by anyone except a Wizard Slayer). In BG1, if you can't cast arcane, then I don't know how you'd survive instant-death traps without a Thief to disarm them.

    There is one particular trap in BG2 that I am thinking of where the damage is not magical (I don't think anyway). Granted the trap is 100% avoidable, but just wanted to point it out. You encounter it about half way through the game and the way to avoid is simply "Don't go that way". Can I vague that up a bit for everyone?

  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited July 2014
    @Demonoid_Limewire Did you mean detect trap? I was under the impression that disarming a trap was the one ability that the thief had unique to itself. Which I guess is a good thing because then what point would there be to have a thief in your party if their job could be done by all the other classes? I am assuming it is not just Baldur's Gate that has important items in locked chests or behind locked doors, would I be right if I guessed that IWD also has some very important game changing items behind a lock?

    @element I am really hoping that is the case for my druid solo run.

    @Blackraven Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from, but my point about this thread is doing a playthrough without optimal resources. Which is why I wanted to do a non-arcane, non-thief run, while still being able to not miss a huge chunk of the best items in the game.

    Also @Gallowglass Are there any must disarm traps in the mainquest of these games? If so then wouldn't that make it impossible to solo as a druid?
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Meanbunny said:

    Also @Gallowglass Are there any must disarm traps in the mainquest of these games? If so then wouldn't that make it impossible to solo as a druid?

    Erm ... none so far as I recall. You'd have to avoid certain places (and therefore miss various loot and sub-quests and so on), but I'm fairly sure that they're not essential to the main plot.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Important point: if you are soloing, almost all of the goodies a thief would provide are either replaceable, or irrelevant and will be sold into your inane dragon's horde of gold. Heck, unless you keeper in containers, you wont be carting most of the stuff out.

    In BG1, you can still nab the big goodies in a certain basement if you have 25 str... clerics can buff enough to do it iirc, but maybe not while capped.

    The only real difference, clerics cant complete werewolf island really (Karoug cant be hit, and even Wand of the Heavens might not cut it, but I think you can THEORETICALLY kill him), and any non-thief solo should avoid Durlag's.

    If you want an interesting solo, try either a kitted thief or a cleric thief. I dont think there is much either is incapable of doing, but it'll be pretty challenging.
  • BlackravenBlackraven Member Posts: 3,486
    @Meanbunny, in that case a warrior or
    Meanbunny said:


    @Blackraven Yes, I completely understand where you are coming from, but my point about this thread is doing a playthrough without optimal resources. Which is why I wanted to do a non-arcane, non-thief run, while still being able to not miss a huge chunk of the best items in the game.

    That would leave a warrior, monk or priest type. Out of those a Druid, the class you mentioned in your OP, should be good fun. The Totemic's spirit animals are very useful in BG1, less so I think in the course of SoA. The Avenger is a very good caster thanks to the extra wizard spells, and has a couple of nice shapeshifts (Web + Sword Spider form is a proven strategy). Personally I'm most interested in the Shapeshifter. I've never played one, but I've been toying with a character concept for one. Ideally you should be able to both melee competently (in werewolf form) and cast. As I understand it, the Werewolf form ceases to be useful in early-mid SoA until you get the Greater Werewolf form. That form is going to do fine even in ToB against mundane foes, but not in boss fights, where you will rely more on HLAs.

    As to lack of thieving skills, you'd have to metagame a bit with the traps but losing out on loot due to not being able to pick locks shouldn't be an issue if you're soloing. The best loot is either sold or dropped by foes or stored in chests that can be opened. You would do well to save the violet potion, sold at the Nashkel Carnival, in order to get the tomes that @DreadKhan was alluding to.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    @Gallowglass, @DreadKhan, @Blackraven Thanks a lot guys. Those were exactly the responses I was looking for. I swear sometimes I feel like I spend more time planning a run then I actually do on the run itself. >.<
  • Demonoid_LimewireDemonoid_Limewire Member Posts: 424
    Sorry. Bad typing. Whatever i wrote for Knock, is wrong... Knock is the equivalent of the "open locks" skill. My bad.
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98
    edited August 2014
    AFAIR the tombs in Candlekeep require 24 STR to open, so if you're a warrior type you can get by with 22-23 STR potions + DUHM (depending on level). Otherwise... yeah, use the Violet potion.
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98

    if your protagonist can first transform to a mustard jelly (which has 100% Magic Resistance), then you should survive tanking such traps ... that transformation requires either the level 4 Mage spell Polymorph Self, or (for BG2 only) the Cloak of the Sewers (which is fortunately wearable by anyone except a Wizard Slayer).

    Unless it's been fixed in EE, the Cloak of the Sewers Mustard Jelly form is definitely not 100% MR -- strangely it's a different form than the mage Poly:Self Mustard Jelly which does have 100% MR.


    In BG1, if you can't cast arcane, then I don't know how you'd survive instant-death traps without a Thief to disarm them.

    AFAIK the only insta-death traps in BG1 are Petrification, Charm and I think there's a Chromatic Orb one too? So, you'd just use standard counters to those, i.e. potions and/or spells which protect you from those specific effects.
  • MeanbunnyMeanbunny Member Posts: 107
    edited August 2014
    Are any of these "instant-death" traps able to be resisted through any saving throw or potion, or are they unresistable? Keep in mind I am not talking about arcane resistances from mage spells.
  • AnonymousHeroAnonymousHero Member Posts: 98
    Meanbunny said:

    Are any of these "instant-death" traps able to be resisted through any saving throw or potion, or are they unresistable? Keep in mind I am not talking about arcane resistances from mage spells.

    AFAIK all insta-death traps are survivable with the Magic Shielding potion which provides "perfect" saving throws (to any non-WS). You can often get by with cheaper means though: For Petrification traps you just use a scroll/potion of Mirrored Eyes. For Charm traps (e.g. the one for the WIS tome in Durlag's Tower) you can use a Potion of Clarity or a charge off the Greenstone Amulet. If your class can use a Potion of Invulnerability and cast Improved Invisibility, then the combination of those two might suffice to bring your saves low enough, etc. (etc.) I believe the Potion of Stone Form also brings your saves down by 2, so that + II might be enough.

    I believe all of these traps also allow a Magic Resistance check, so you can also use 2xPotion of Magic Protection for 100% MR. (Though that's a rather expensive way to do it.)

    You get the idea.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    I think there might be some insta-kill-type traps in BG2 that don't allow saves though.
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