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Why do you all hate Khalid?

SilenceSilence Member Posts: 437
edited August 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
So, it must be asked: why does almost everyone hate Khalid so much?

Ok, not everyone. But a lot of people - and I don't get it. I mean his stats are good. His proficiencies are good. His portrait is good. But for some reason a lot of people eliminate him from the game as soon as possible. They'd all rather have just Jaheria. Heck, even the writers turned on him!

I'm hoping to get some answers. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • jhart1018jhart1018 Member Posts: 909
    I don't hate him, exactly. I'd tolerate him to keep Jaheira around. I wasn't glad, really, that he was dead at the opening of BG2; I was more relieved. He was always the first to run away or get confused or die. I always raised him and treated him well, but it was a wasted slot to have him around because he never actually STAYED toe-to-toe with anything. Since I prefer rogues and mages, I need to hide behind the meat shields.
  • harvman11harvman11 Member Posts: 33
    He just always seemed completely unimpressive to me, I've brought him along at times but there are enough good-aligned warrior types that I would rather have like Minsc, Ajantis, Kivan, Coran, and Jaheria (okay, she's neutral, but close enough). I generally prefer either Ranger/Paladin or multi-classed fighters, and Khalid doesn't help himself out much. His stats aren't good enough to wow me (though they aren't terrible, especially his CON), but most importantly I find him both boring and obnoxious, both in terms of his personality (stutter/indecisiveness) and his tendency to run away in any hard fight.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    Personally I neither like or dislike him, but I can perfectly understand if someone finds his stuttering annoying. And his goody-goodyness probably piss off some people too. How it isn't more annoying than Minsc YELLING ALL THE TIME I'm not sure though. Only thing I really don't like about him is being one of those NPC duos, one where both characters is a fighter even, that's a bit excessive.
  • KholdstareKholdstare Member Posts: 160
    It's his personality. Canon party be damned, I'm letting him die in BGE and getting Ajantis.
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    Didn't know people disliked him. I thought he was a good addition to the party. Not as great as Kagain or Minsc, but still good overall.

    For instance, If you have the Ogre Gloves that give 18/00 STR, then he's better than Ajantis as he has better CON and DEX than Ajantis. He's a lot better in CON than Kivan, but Kivan only has one DEX point more than Khalid. So given the choice in this case, I'd pick Khalid over Ajantis / Kivan.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    I would like him better if he were a fighter Mage, which apparently he was supposed to be (although not 100 percent sure about this speculation) because as stated above, his stats are kinda mediocre, and him requiring bracers just to make him viable bothers me.
    I also don't like pure class fighters, but that's just me
  • MilesBeyondMilesBeyond Member Posts: 324
    edited August 2012
    It's not that he sucks, it's just that he doesn't stand out. Mediocre stats and no special abilities. Items can improve stats, but they can do that for anyone. Give those Ogre Gloves to Coran instead and you've got a fighter with god-like DEX. Give the Gauntlets of Dexterity to Ajantis and he's got much better stats than Khalid, plus all the fun things that come with being a Paladin. Or, better yet, grab someone link Minsc who doesn't need items to boost his stats and instead put on something like the Gauntlets of Weapon Skill.

    Heck, even Montaron, in my books, outweighs Khalid. Not that Monty's crappy, but a Halfling thug isn't really something you'd expect to be a devastating fighter.

    EDIT: Also, as others have mentioned, his morale is terrible. No one needs a Fighter who runs at the first sight of trouble. Also, he's great for detecting traps.
  • RaggieRaggie Member Posts: 23
    I LOVE Khalid! He was my favorite character on my first playthrough. Together with Minsc on the front row, he was unstoppable. I thought he was so funny.
  • pablo200783pablo200783 Member Posts: 96
    Because Khalid stutter that is reason, Khalid is not bad chracter but many people prefer Kivan, but when you have both party rule on range combat two good bows kills everything.
  • Metal_HurlantMetal_Hurlant Member Posts: 324
    edited August 2012
    Xavioria said:

    because as stated above, his stats are kinda mediocre, and him requiring bracers just to make him viable bothers me.

    Nearly all the NPC's stats are mediocre in some way and require some stat enhancing braces, whether it's the Ogre Braces or the DEX braces. Without those two braces, nearly all the NPCs aren't viable. And if an NPC doesn't need braces, it's usually their CON that's mediocre.

  • AnduineAnduine Member Posts: 416
    Unlike many, I do not judge characters by their stats/ability scores; I judge them by their personality. I like Khalid because he is good-aligned and does not hide it. He wants to do right and speaks of valour, and that's about enough for me to like anyone.
  • DelinomDelinom Member Posts: 46
    I don't... hate him... I just think he's the worst fighter-type in the whole franchise, and one unlucky guy overall. :P I'd rather take Shar-Teel, Kalgain, Ajantis, basically anyone else...
  • DelinomDelinom Member Posts: 46
    edited August 2012
    Silverstar said:

    Personally I neither like or dislike him, but I can perfectly understand if someone finds his stuttering annoying. And his goody-goodyness probably piss off some people too. How it isn't more annoying than Minsc YELLING ALL THE TIME I'm not sure though. Only thing I really don't like about him is being one of those NPC duos, one where both characters is a fighter even, that's a bit excessive.


    They went a bit crazy with the duo's in BG1 - Khalid/Jaheira, Xzar/Montaron, Minsc/Dynaheir, Eldoth/Skie... I'm glad they ditched that in BG2.
  • LRECLREC Member Posts: 68
    His...personality...and I think you can get a better fighter type class. I prefer Kivan or Minsc in particular.
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    I like Khalid, even the stutter (how is that annoying?), It's bossy Jaheira that I always want rid of in BG, and faked up Clint Eastwood spoof, Kivan.
    As for the duos; coming from SoA, I thought it was a really nice feature.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    I've found that NPCs are typically evaluated in two ways: their usefulness to the party and how well they're written.

    As a character, Khalid just isn't that interesting - he's Jaheira's cowardly, obedient husband who loses morale at the drop of a coin. As a fighter, Jaheira's more useful (because she can use Insect Swarm on enemy mages before moving in for the kill) and there are other fighters who outmatch him without the use of special equipment (ie: Kagain, Ajantis, Shar-Teel).
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    How it isn't more annoying than Minsc YELLING ALL THE TIME I'm not sure though.
    Yeah, seriously this is what I keep wondering; why people hate Khalid and love Minsc. They're both annoying.
  • AurenRavidelAurenRavidel Member Posts: 139
    shawne said:

    I've found that NPCs are typically evaluated in two ways: their usefulness to the party and how well they're written.

    Khalid admittedly doesn't seem very well-written. I have a tough time imagining why Jaheira would marry him. While he's certainly got some good qualities, it just seems an extremely odd match. I still always bring him along. *shrugs*

    I do think he's a bit underrated as a fighter, though. He's actually one of the best npc tanks in the game, second only to Kagain. His 17 Con and 16 Dex, combined with the typical sword and board build and some decent armor means he can last quite for quite awhile in the front ranks.
  • CuanCuan Member Posts: 38
    Moomintroll said:

    I like Khalid, even the stutter (how is that annoying?), It's bossy Jaheira that I always want rid of in BG, and faked up Clint Eastwood spoof, Kivan.
    As for the duos; coming from SoA, I thought it was a really nice feature.

    I am the same. I always use to get rid of Jaheira not Khalid. Jaheira is annoying as hell for myself personally. Minsc I hated, shouting all the time and thick as a brick. Couldn't handle it and can't understand how people are attracted to him.

  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    I personally don't hate Khalid. In fact, he is in my party. I will not disagree that he is kinda cowardly, though. Also his strength is not enough to make him 'a tank'. It is supposed for fighters to be first in battle, not hide behind mages.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    I do not hate Khalid myself, but I think that reasons why other people do that are pretty simple. First of all, his english voiceset is annoying (that is probably not a issue in other language versions), second thing is that Khalid posseses personality imperfections and flaws that are highly noticeable (low morale, stamming etc.). Khalid is not like, say, Minsc or Jan Jansen. He's not really comical (although Jan is nothing more than annoyance to me). If character isn't either hot (Viconia) or funny (Edwin, Minsc) nowadays, it's not likeable. That's my opinion on how majority thinks.

    Arguments about Khalid's "crap stats" are invalid. True, he has 15 strenght, but also 16 dexterity and 17 constitution, which makes him pretty good tank. Let him tank, and let Minsc deal damage with 2-handed weapon. That kind of combo works fine.
  • PaheejPaheej Member Posts: 126
    Like @Sallparadise said, Khalid is crap in-game, he's not an interesting or exceptional person. His stuttering is annoying and he has zero backbone. He doesn't develop in the game at all and is just generally a drag.

    Maybe if you could grow his character through a quest and some party banter, then he might be good. Teach him not to stutter, give him so confidence so he'd have a backbone, and increase his stats are all things he desperately needs. It's not all surprising he gets the axe in BG2.

    Another possibility would be for an option for an evil character to maybe corrupt him and have him off Jaheria as he gains and backgrone and stops taking all that overbearing crap. Not trying to be a misogynist, his character just desperately needs some type of cool or controversial that will make him standout in BG1.

    I mean think of the other characters and how awesome they are:
    Ignoring what @Cuan says about Minsc (Miniature Giant Space Hamster? Great Fighter! Uncomprising! Quest to Save a Damsel in Distress?!? Freaking awesome gentlemen)

    Viconia (Unique Race Among NPCs! You get to stick it to the man to save her! Moral quandry - save an evil person from unjust law enforcement!)

    Edwin (Dude, everyone knows Edwin is awesome)

    etc. etc. So yeah that's why I hate Khalid.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Paheej there is no character in BG1 that actually develops in-game, so please use valid arguments.
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231
    edited August 2012
    @Paheej BG1 characters don't have the same depth as BG2. You must be thinking of BG1NPC if you're thinking about depth.
    And just saying "everybody knows Edwin is awesome" is like saying "everybody knows lettuce is the best vegetable". No, actually we don't. I prefer tomatoes myself....
    ... and can't stand a person who constantly calls my intellect and commands into question with a 19 intelligence mage (tome) and more backbone than he'll see in a lifetime of digging up skeletons in a graveyard :P
    He's a good mage or make that a great mage with his amulet. And that's about it. As a good character I despise him for being evil. As a neutral character I despise him for thinking himself above me. As an evil character I kill him for taking up bridge space.
    In terms of interjections (because that's what we get in BG1) in the Jaheira / Khalid duo, Jaheira is the one i can't stand with her high and mighty attitude and bossiness. It would have been interesting to have her killed off at the start of BG2 and see how the tragedy marks him but not for any cool factor but for the same reason it was done for Jaheira (character building and freeing up a romance).
  • PaheejPaheej Member Posts: 126
    @ZelgadisGW
    Hey bro, I already agreed with earlier posted problems, pointed out interesting backgrounds & join events of other characters, then I gave some examples of what would make him a better character - because if you complain about something you should always offer a solution.

    Only other options are to A. Re-do his voiceset, B. Re-do his stats, C. Re-do his class and/or background

    Those kind of solutions are heavy handed, besides the earlier suggestions are perfect fit ins for the BG1 NPC Project.
  • PaheejPaheej Member Posts: 126
    neleothesze said:

    And just saying "everybody knows Edwin is awesome" is like saying "everybody knows lettuce is the best vegetable". No, actually we don't. I prefer tomatoes myself....
    ... and can't stand a person who constantly calls my intellect and commands into question with a 19 intelligence mage (tome) and more backbone than he'll see in a lifetime of digging up skeletons in a graveyard :P

    @neleothesze
    The "everybody knows Edwin is awesome" was mostly a joke. However he's far more interesting than Khalid, a better addition to the party, and not a stuttering spineless coward. Khalid has no business adventuring which makes his death in BG2 both reasonable and fitting.

    Besides Kagain and Minsc both do his job better than he does and Minsc is way more interesting, (Kagain is not in the vanilla game, but 20 CON is 20 CON baby!)
  • Permidion_StarkPermidion_Stark Member Posts: 4,861
    I like him. I find him amusing. But he's not a guy I'd want to have my back in a bar fight.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    I like him, he's one of my favorite characters. I find him likable and endearing.

    I think the main reason he is disliked by many is that he force-paired with one of the few healers in the game. So the jokes about killing him off are around that problem more than anything. (The SCS mod allows you to break up NPC pairs, btw.) Khalid is also scripted to have the occasional morale failure and flee in battle. But for me that makes the character more fun and interesting. If the party performs well in combat you'll never see his morale failure.

    I once ran a side by side comparison between Khalid and Minsc through the Nashkel mines, i.e., two parallel games with just PC and the NPC, respectively. And to my great surprise Khalid got more kills. Minsc was wielding a two-handed sword and Khalid was equipped with long sword and shield. Khalid starts with good profs in long sword, IIRC. I'm recalling that it's possible to get him to grandmastery by the end of ToSC. (It's been over 4 years since I played the game so please forgive me if I got this wrong.)
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