BGT allowed me to import characters the way I had them if they were in my party. So I always had Imoen at level 9 thief instead of level 7 (for the extra backstab bonus). Played with Jan once, he's funny but for me I don't really like his character so I never really took him along again. I don't like my main character being a thief and Imoen can handle everything herself when it comes to unlocking stuff and disarming traps... except for like 2 areas with vanilla.
I would love to meet an evil assassin and/or a sarcastic swashbuckler. There really does need to be more thieves than other characters because a thief is a real requirement in any working party. Nalia needs a whole shift in like... everything. She's a terrible NPC when it comes to power where Jan and Imoen do it better.
BGT allowed me to import characters the way I had them if they were in my party. So I always had Imoen at level 9 thief instead of level 7 (for the extra backstab bonus).
You are right !
We really need another thief, but we can " upgrade " Imoen too. I dont know how others, but i like Imoen thief more then thief/mage. ( There is soo many mages in BG2...) Why we just let be only thief on start BG2:EE and who want thief/mage then can switch on multiclass.
She casting magic missiles in cut scene on the end fisrt dungeon, but she also wearing her " special " belt what can´t be remove. We can change it in to magic belt with power to cast magic missiles like mage on lvl 6 ( that are 3 missiles like in cut scene ) 3x per day ( on something like that ).
Imoen turning all magey is part of the established game lore though, or so I thought... I was sure I had read in her biography or somewhere that Imoen had turned to magical studies as a tribute to Gorion or something, yet I couldn't find it when checking just now. Closest thing is in the game manual:
Since Gorion’s death, Imoen has turned her quick mind to the magical arts and is rarely found far from the company of the player character.
So letting her stay pure thief and spray Irenicus with magic missiles from an item may or may not fit with the lore. But regardless, the devs aren't really allowed to touch the original characters much so Imoen probably have to stay stuck in her horrible dual classing.
Or you could just give imoen bhaalpowers (since ironic us opened it up to her) and use different weird abilities that the cowled wizards still think of as magic. Remember, tiax isn't a Mage, yet is still in spell hold...
Honestly, I never understood the point of Monks being able to detect traps and not disarm them. Same with the spell Detect Traps.
"Yay I can see that that chest is trapped but since I don't have a Thief I'm going to trigger it anyway to get the stuff inside!"
or much worse:
"Yay, I can see that trap on the ground, but since I don't have a Thief and I'm forced to go that way anyway I'll just have to trigger it!"
The Monk/Divine Spell trapfinding is only useful in very specific and uncommon situations.
All in all, disarming traps is one of the thief's key abilities - along with backstabbing; like spells for magic users, weapons and armors for man at arms, etc. If someone else does it, a great deal of his or her use is gone.
No doubt about it, we need another thief. The fact that you had to be a thief yourself when playing with an all evil party often led me to start a multiplayer game with the character I actually wanted to play and an additional thief.
If a thief has to share disarm trap with a monk... I dont see how that greatly diminishes the use of the character. Thieves aren't just useful for only that, and if people ARE only using a thief in their party for that reason, then that slot is basically wasted. Thieves can go into stealth, so can rangers. Thieves can pickpocket, so can bards. Thieves can backstabb, but stalkers were given a lesser version of this ability too. I'm with a large amount of people that say that monks being able to disarm traps makes little role playing sense, but them being able to detect traps without being able to disarm them makes no pragmatic sense.
Thieves have ALOT of abilities including setting traps, disarming them opening locks, backstabbing, scouting, pick pocketing and even being able to "detect illusions." IMO I think detect illusions needs to work as a true sight spell and then be given to monks instead of detect trap. This just makes more sense to me.
1) Allow Imoen and other returning characters to be imported the way you had them at the end of BG:EE. 2) Make a new (evil) thief character.
This way you have 1 single class thief for any alignment group (Imoen, Jan, new guy). Plus Yoshimo, if you want to count him. Good and evil parties have 1 choice (or 3, if they include neutral members). Neutral parties have 2 choices (or 4, if they include good or evil members). All of this without forcing you to roll a thief.
Given that they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree, and therefore prohibiting us from getting a Thief Imoen instead of the dualclass, I'm very much for a new thief NPC. I'd love for it to be a pure Thief, the thought of having all those skill points available (and eventually a real juicy backstab multiplier)... mmm.
@Tanthalas. 3e wasn't released until 2000, and BG came out in 1998. Unless you mean BeamDog is scavenging it now.
I don't think BG originally had the monk until BG2 added it, and that did come out in 2000 right around the same time as 3rd edition. 3rd edition is also where the separate barbarian class came from, though I think they were limited by game structure to make it into more of a modified fighter.
As for all the debate about which character is the best for this or that only, I think it makes sense that evil characters are the best for power-gaming and good characters are for those who want to engage more with the plot.
Given that they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree, and therefore prohibiting us from getting a Thief Imoen
Your logic is faulty and your attention lacking.
Please let me quote myself: "Allow Imoen and other returning characters to be imported the way you had them at the end of BG:EE."
They wouldn't be altering anything. They would just be giving us an ADDITIONAL feature, which is much requested, and that already exists for the protagonist anyway.
@aldain probably meant that at the beginning of a BG2:EE Imoen's class would need to be as it is in the beginning of BG2 (since "they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree"). I see you're only thinking in terms of exporting Imoen from BG1:EE, but it wouldn't be much use if she couldn't be imported into the sequel. And, contract aside, in the BG2 story Imoen has magic.
aldain probably meant that at the beginning of a BG2:EE Imoen's class would need to be as it is in the beginning of BG2
Wow... my answer to him was already there in the first post he replied to, and my answer to you was already there in the second post you replied to. I'm starting to get a little offended, guys. Do you read before answering?
I know perfectly what he meant. But it's a wrong assumption. It really doesn't need to.
(since "they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree").
As I said in my previous post, I'm pretty sure you both don't know what THIS means.
The reason why it's an EXTENDED EDITION is that it has additional stuff. ADDITIONAL features do NOT count as altering existing content. EXTENDING an ALREADY EXISTING feature to characters other than the protagonist, even less so.
I see you're only thinking in terms of exporting Imoen from BG1:EE,
We are ALL talking about going FROM BG:EE TO BG2:EE. What are YOU talking about?
but it wouldn't be much use if she couldn't be imported into the sequel.
I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense. She CAN be imported into the sequel. Again, it's the sequel we're talking about.
And, contract aside, in the BG2 story Imoen has magic.
BG2 is full with "impossible", breaking-the-rules stuff, like class/race combos (Aerie) and additional powers that are not part of the class requisites (absolutely everyone except Korgan).
Solution 1: A girl that grew up in Candlekeep with Gorion might have an additional low-level magic power (what is it? Arcane Missile? I don't remember...) that make the wizards identify her as a mage, even though you never give her that class. Working as an innate power, like the protagonist's transformation.
Solution 2: Like it's done in Dragon Age and Mass Effect several times... story trumps petty gameplay limitations. Maybe she never has that power outside of the cutscene. It still works, given her background story. Why doesn't she use it any other time? Maybe it's something innate that she doesn't exactly know how to control. Or maybe she does it all the time when YOU are not looking.
Given that they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree, and therefore prohibiting us from getting a Thief Imoen
Your logic is faulty and your attention lacking.
Please let me quote myself: "Allow Imoen and other returning characters to be imported the way you had them at the end of BG:EE."
They wouldn't be altering anything. They would just be giving us an ADDITIONAL feature, which is much requested, and that already exists for the protagonist anyway.
My logic, and attention for that matter, are both fine, thank you. I was addressing the original post, not yours. You are of course aware that they are not even allowed to alter dialogue for existing joinable NPC's? Imoen is a joinable NPC. It seems probable that the contractual limitations they will be under when doing BG2:EE are the same, or similar, as the ones they're under for BG:EE.
This means it's highly unlikely that they're allowed to do something as drastic as change Imoen's class setup, even if you want to call it a feature. I can agree that if they're allowed to do it, that'd be swell. I just have my doubts.
As for your second followup post, it was just rude and obnoxious, so I won't respond to that. Trying to hammer the same point home over and over using CAPS isn't a good argumentative technique.
@Raistlin82 it's Enhanced Edition. The reason for that is that they're enhancing the game.
I don't recall seeing an explicit statement on whether changing the class of an existing NPC is possible within the contract, so I'm presuming there. But so are you. (Unless... source?)
As for the original post, I'd also like to see a new thief NPC in BG2:EE.
1) Allow Imoen and other returning characters to be imported the way you had them at the end of BG:EE. 2) Make a new (evil) thief character.
This way you have 1 single class thief for any alignment group (Imoen, Jan, new guy). Plus Yoshimo, if you want to count him. Good and evil parties have 1 choice (or 3, if they include neutral members). Neutral parties have 2 choices (or 4, if they include good or evil members). All of this without forcing you to roll a thief.
This cannot happen with Imoen since how will she end up in Spellhold if she can't use magic?
Magic can be substituted any number of ways. I actually really like her as a Mage/Thief, but for those who don't, I can see their points, and magic can just as easily come from special abilities.
Secondly, I also think that thieves should be given different types of kits so that it would be possible for people to create a more specific kind of thief. Sharpshooter (sniper) and a burglar comes to mind
Imoen's class matters- because if she isn't a mage, there would be no reason to incarcerate her in Spellhold, and no reason for the character to try and go there to free her. Making her only a thief would eliminate something like 2/3 of the reason your character is adventuring in SoA.
Now that I think about it, Yoshimo is a fine thief. I mean, yeah, he becomes unavailable late game, but at the time that he does, Imoen becomes available. So... I don't see the problem, really.
I think they could make Nalia a pureclass thief without changing her dialogs! I don't think she ever reference her spellcasting abilities or anything arcane at all in her speech and she's only a cheap imoen knockoff as it stands...
aldain probably meant that at the beginning of a BG2:EE Imoen's class would need to be as it is in the beginning of BG2
And, contract aside, in the BG2 story Imoen has magic.
BG2 is full with "impossible", breaking-the-rules stuff, like class/race combos (Aerie) and additional powers that are not part of the class requisites (absolutely everyone except Korgan).
Solution 1: A girl that grew up in Candlekeep with Gorion might have an additional low-level magic power (what is it? Arcane Missile? I don't remember...) that make the wizards identify her as a mage, even though you never give her that class. Working as an innate power, like the protagonist's transformation.
Solution 2: Like it's done in Dragon Age and Mass Effect several times... story trumps petty gameplay limitations. Maybe she never has that power outside of the cutscene. It still works, given her background story. Why doesn't she use it any other time? Maybe it's something innate that she doesn't exactly know how to control. Or maybe she does it all the time when YOU are not looking.
One of the mods (Never-Ending Journey) addresses this by giving Imoen the Charming Rogue kit which gives her a certain amount of spells as innate abilities. I've always felt this strikes a balance by keeping her a pure thief while still allowing it to be obvious that she has innate sorcerous powers.
Also the issue of Imoen being automatically dual classed (and a few other issues) could be solved by the devs using an approach similar to the BWP and allowing those who have both games installed to play straight through without the need to omport or switch games.
Now that I think about it, Yoshimo is a fine thief. I mean, yeah, he becomes unavailable late game, but at the time that he does, Imoen becomes available. So... I don't see the problem, really.
The problem is that in ToB, Imoen's thief skills just don't cut it.
Imoen is quite lackluster, and having all those cool neat thief abilities like setting traps would be nice if there were a thief who could do it (jan and char name being the only ones if you choose charade to be a thief).
As stated before... Like twice... Magical abilities can be substituted very easily. She doesn't HAVE to be a Mage to be incarcerated in spellhold.
I'm not sure we should count on Immy being a pure-thief. I guarantee you that with the restrictions they have, BG2 Imoen isn't gonna change one bit, and the odds of BG1 NPCs being importable are virtually zilch as well (I've already asked). Even if they found a way to bring in just Imoen, that wouldn't solve much of anything for evil parties, who would still need a Charname thief (which, as mentioned before, makes the evil path in Ch 3 inaccessible).
So, I think the only real solution is for Beamdog to create their own NPC who's a thief.
I get the lack of a pure thief, because pre-hlas they were pretty underwhelming at higher levels. But since we've now got hlas, especially those lovely spike traps, I don't see any reason to avoid pure-class thieves.
If they were going to cut down a dual-class thief to single class, surely Nalia would be first choice. I don't think any of her dialogue or story is caster specific. In fact, she's referred to much more as a thief than a mage.
This was one of biggest issues for me when thinking about who to pick in my party. Basically you have to have either Nalia, Imoen or Jan, but since Imoen is absent a long time during SoA, I usually didn't take her into my party. Nalia is barely good enough even to get through SoA so the only half-decent choice is Jan, but he's only a mediocre mage and a terrible fighter. Often times this means that the most comfortable choice is to create a Dual/Multi-class thief as your protagonist.
Comments
I would love to meet an evil assassin and/or a sarcastic swashbuckler. There really does need to be more thieves than other characters because a thief is a real requirement in any working party. Nalia needs a whole shift in like... everything. She's a terrible NPC when it comes to power where Jan and Imoen do it better.
We really need another thief, but we can " upgrade " Imoen too.
I dont know how others, but i like Imoen thief more then thief/mage. ( There is soo many mages in BG2...)
Why we just let be only thief on start BG2:EE and who want thief/mage then can switch on multiclass.
She casting magic missiles in cut scene on the end fisrt dungeon, but she also wearing her " special " belt what can´t be remove. We can change it in to magic belt with power to cast magic missiles like mage on lvl 6 ( that are 3 missiles like in cut scene ) 3x per day ( on something like that ).
Thieves have ALOT of abilities including setting traps, disarming them opening locks, backstabbing, scouting, pick pocketing and even being able to "detect illusions." IMO I think detect illusions needs to work as a true sight spell and then be given to monks instead of detect trap. This just makes more sense to me.
2) Make a new (evil) thief character.
This way you have 1 single class thief for any alignment group (Imoen, Jan, new guy).
Plus Yoshimo, if you want to count him.
Good and evil parties have 1 choice (or 3, if they include neutral members).
Neutral parties have 2 choices (or 4, if they include good or evil members).
All of this without forcing you to roll a thief.
As for all the debate about which character is the best for this or that only, I think it makes sense that evil characters are the best for power-gaming and good characters are for those who want to engage more with the plot.
Please let me quote myself:
"Allow Imoen and other returning characters to be imported the way you had them at the end of BG:EE."
They wouldn't be altering anything. They would just be giving us an ADDITIONAL feature, which is much requested, and that already exists for the protagonist anyway.
@aldain probably meant that at the beginning of a BG2:EE Imoen's class would need to be as it is in the beginning of BG2 (since "they're not allowed to alter existing content to any real degree"). I see you're only thinking in terms of exporting Imoen from BG1:EE, but it wouldn't be much use if she couldn't be imported into the sequel. And, contract aside, in the BG2 story Imoen has magic.
I'm starting to get a little offended, guys.
Do you read before answering?
I know perfectly what he meant.
But it's a wrong assumption. It really doesn't need to. As I said in my previous post, I'm pretty sure you both don't know what THIS means.
The reason why it's an EXTENDED EDITION is that it has additional stuff.
ADDITIONAL features do NOT count as altering existing content.
EXTENDING an ALREADY EXISTING feature to characters other than the protagonist, even less so. We are ALL talking about going FROM BG:EE TO BG2:EE.
What are YOU talking about? I'm sorry, this sentence makes no sense.
She CAN be imported into the sequel. Again, it's the sequel we're talking about. BG2 is full with "impossible", breaking-the-rules stuff, like class/race combos (Aerie) and additional powers that are not part of the class requisites (absolutely everyone except Korgan).
Solution 1: A girl that grew up in Candlekeep with Gorion might have an additional low-level magic power (what is it? Arcane Missile? I don't remember...) that make the wizards identify her as a mage, even though you never give her that class. Working as an innate power, like the protagonist's transformation.
Solution 2: Like it's done in Dragon Age and Mass Effect several times... story trumps petty gameplay limitations. Maybe she never has that power outside of the cutscene. It still works, given her background story. Why doesn't she use it any other time? Maybe it's something innate that she doesn't exactly know how to control. Or maybe she does it all the time when YOU are not looking.
Imoen is a joinable NPC. It seems probable that the contractual limitations they will be under when doing BG2:EE are the same, or similar, as the ones they're under for BG:EE.
This means it's highly unlikely that they're allowed to do something as drastic as change Imoen's class setup, even if you want to call it a feature. I can agree that if they're allowed to do it, that'd be swell. I just have my doubts.
As for your second followup post, it was just rude and obnoxious, so I won't respond to that. Trying to hammer the same point home over and over using CAPS isn't a good argumentative technique.
I don't recall seeing an explicit statement on whether changing the class of an existing NPC is possible within the contract, so I'm presuming there. But so are you. (Unless... source?)
As for the original post, I'd also like to see a new thief NPC in BG2:EE.
Secondly, I also think that thieves should be given different types of kits so that it would be possible for people to create a more specific kind of thief. Sharpshooter (sniper) and a burglar comes to mind
Solution 1: A girl that grew up in Candlekeep with Gorion might have an additional low-level magic power (what is it? Arcane Missile? I don't remember...) that make the wizards identify her as a mage, even though you never give her that class. Working as an innate power, like the protagonist's transformation.
Solution 2: Like it's done in Dragon Age and Mass Effect several times... story trumps petty gameplay limitations. Maybe she never has that power outside of the cutscene. It still works, given her background story. Why doesn't she use it any other time? Maybe it's something innate that she doesn't exactly know how to control. Or maybe she does it all the time when YOU are not looking.
One of the mods (Never-Ending Journey) addresses this by giving Imoen the Charming Rogue kit which gives her a certain amount of spells as innate abilities. I've always felt this strikes a balance by keeping her a pure thief while still allowing it to be obvious that she has innate sorcerous powers.
Also the issue of Imoen being automatically dual classed (and a few other issues) could be solved by the devs using an approach similar to the BWP and allowing those who have both games installed to play straight through without the need to omport or switch games.
As stated before... Like twice... Magical abilities can be substituted very easily. She doesn't HAVE to be a Mage to be incarcerated in spellhold.
So, I think the only real solution is for Beamdog to create their own NPC who's a thief.
I get the lack of a pure thief, because pre-hlas they were pretty underwhelming at higher levels. But since we've now got hlas, especially those lovely spike traps, I don't see any reason to avoid pure-class thieves.
Beside the point though. Shiny new thief please.
Oh no not Alora. I had hoped when I left her in the sewers of Baldur's Gate that she would've stayed there forever.
That would be a hilarious answer to a request for a "real" thief however.