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Is IWD an RPG?

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Comments

  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 421
    edited September 2014
    As I see it, the 'RPG' concept in the software sense has evolved to mean something different from 'role playing game'. Thus, Diablo is an RPG, because you choose stats, which is something you typically do in a RPG game. Note that last phrase. Pedants may say you can't say 'RPG game' because you're saying 'game' twice, but I say that RPG is a word in it's own right.

    Roleplaying is something different. In a game context it typically involves a quest, and a choice. For most of us, the hard choices provide moments that blow our minds, entertain us, really this is what we're here for. The good RPG games allow you to roleplay your characters through a variety of quests, and depending on your choices, further quests may open up, or disappear forever.

    For many of us, BG has long ago stopped providing those 'mind blown' moments. We may occasionally still roleplay the quests, but often I instead powergame through them for the best loot. I'm currently playing Fallout new vegas for the first time, and I'm doing more roleplaying now than I have in BG for years.

    An interesting side-question is, are any of the Deus Ex's roleplaying games? Yes there are quests, but they're rather like Diablo quests, in that you can either finish them, or not bother, but you can't really break a quest, unless you haul out a gun and blow the quest-giver away.

    EDIT Note even if Deus ex is not a RPG, I generally roleplay in Deus EX by choosing to stun enemies rather than kill them. That's gotta count for something more than a steam achievement.

    kcwiseBelgarathMTHjamoecw
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,710
    Deus Ex, the first one, is one of the most branching (both in story and level design) RPGs ever made. There's a reason Deus Ex 2 was so hated - it was a linear shooter with minor RPG elements. It didn't live up to even a pinch of the original game's grandeur.

    jackjackaqzina
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,710
    Oh, and @Fardragon - I'm really sorry for your lackluster GM experiences, but no, not all GMs do that.

    jamoecw
  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 186
    Archaos said:

    @Fardragon‌

    Roleplaying means that you choose and play a role and there are options to support that role.

    There's no RP in Diablo because it doesn't matter what you do or choose. You're there to kill stuff, the story or dialogues don't change.

    Wrong again :) The choices in Diablo are a little shallower than most, and mostly amount to allocating stat points and choosing skills, but they are roleplaying games.
    In short:
    -If a game supports roleplaying by design, then it's a roleplaying game.
    -If the game doesn't support roleplaying, but the player chooses to do so, it's simply roleplaying, not a roleplaying game.

    You can roleplay, as a player, in any game but that doesn't make them Role-Playing Games by design.
    Well thank you for outlining the rules for all of us, but I think the rest of the world had a fairly good idea of what a RPG was before you happened along. :)

  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 186
    Fardragon said:

    Archaos said:

    @Fardragon‌

    Roleplaying means that you choose and play a role and there are options to support that role.

    There's no RP in Diablo because it doesn't matter what you do or choose. You're there to kill stuff, the story or dialogues don't change.

    True for IWD and BG. And most PnP DnD games in fact. Choice is an illusion, the DM actually has all the encounters planned out ahead, and knows what the outcomes will be.
    lol Um. Was your DM too poor to buy dice or something?...

  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 186

    As I see it, the 'RPG' concept in the software sense has evolved to mean something different from 'role playing game'. Thus, Diablo is an RPG, because you choose stats, which is something you typically do in a RPG game. Note that last phrase. Pedants may say you can't say 'RPG game' because you're saying 'game' twice, but I say that RPG is a word in it's own right.

    Roleplaying is something different. In a game context it typically involves a quest, and a choice. For most of us, the hard choices provide moments that blow our minds, entertain us, really this is what we're here for. The good RPG games allow you to roleplay your characters through a variety of quests, and depending on your choices, further quests may open up, or disappear forever.

    For many of us, BG has long ago stopped providing those 'mind blown' moments. We may occasionally still roleplay the quests, but often I instead powergame through them for the best loot. I'm currently playing Fallout new vegas for the first time, and I'm doing more roleplaying now than I have in BG for years.

    An interesting side-question is, are any of the Deus Ex's roleplaying games? Yes there are quests, but they're rather like Diablo quests, in that you can either finish them, or not bother, but you can't really break a quest, unless you haul out a gun and blow the quest-giver away.

    EDIT Note even if Deus ex is not a RPG, I generally roleplay in Deus EX by choosing to stun enemies rather than kill them. That's gotta count for something more than a steam achievement.

    ... please stop saying "RPG game." I know you think it's a word in its own right, but it's really not. And we're not pedants for getting that nails-on-a-blackboard sensation when you do this, we're just people trolling around on internet forums arguing about RPG games -- SHIT, now you have me doing it.

    NimranQuartz
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,544

    DreadKhan said:

    I swear kwyjibo is definately maybe a word.

    The Internet thinks it is a Swahili word and I see no reason to doubt that at this time. Unfortunately, Zyzzyva, the official word-checking software used by NASPA (North American Scrabble Players Association, of which I am a member), does not recognize it as a word which may be used in an official Scrabble game. That's a shame, too, because at 7 letters you would pick up your 50-point bonus, not counting any double/triple letter or word squares you may have hit. The best subanagrams of that word appear to be "joky" or "koji", but as long as you can hook the "k", the "j", or the "y" on a triple letter the play would be a good one.

    Bad news! I checked with my axe.

    She disagrees. And she would like to meet this NASPA for a chat.

    And no, there is nothing strange about her having a beard; lots of axes have beards. Its perfectly healthy and normal.

    @Sixheadeddog‌ unnecessary snark noted. However, you seem to be missing how one could use that definition to help clarify the issue. Dice are not remotely relevant to roleplaying games; ever done a story-only roleplaying 'game'? These might stretch the modern definition of a game, but it is a game despite no dice and nothing truly random occuring. It relies on mutual respect and discretion instead of dice, and it can actually work really well. This forum has some of these on here even. Still an RPG despite having 0 mechanics. Hmm... makes one wonder!

    I also didnt say a game had to be designed as an RPG to be an RPG, nor that necessarily a game designed as an RPG is really an RPG; intent of the developer isnt that important. Lots of so called 'RPG' games feature no actual roleplaying, and dont really support it. JRPGs can have excellent stories, but they tend not to have very much actual potential to roleplay, as you get few significant choices and have very limited customization; IMHO, you can either offer significant choices or significant customization to support roleplaying (ideally in the West we'd like both, but Eastern culture is pretty different, and their preferences in game design reflect this).

    @LadyRhian‌ you have more RP experience than me I'd wager, how would you define a roleplaying game?

    rufus_hobartjamoecw
  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 4,735
    Wow, I'm super impressed with the quality of dialogue going on in this thread. There's a tendency for rpg fans to get a little heated in their discussions of definitions and examples, but people here are mostly avoiding getting angry and are posting a lot of really interesting analyses and points on both sides. Keep it up!

    DreadKhankcwiseCrevsDaakjamoecw
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,544
    Good post LadyRhian, and a nice unbiased position. I would argue acting is very literally playing a role, but I agree its not really a game usually. This is a good point though, acting vs RPG.

    At this point, its very hard to sell a game with no storyline whatsoever. Personal theory, but I suspect Warcraft Orcs and Humans was really the death knell to games without a background story; the gameplay was good, the graphics at the time were impressive, but the story, in part from the manual gave us immersion, especially if you were younger. It also meant people would be very curious about a sequel. The only developer that I can think of that can literally ignore story and still have a good chance of success seems to be Nintendo, because its fans like it for the quirks.

    Does just a story make an RPG, no matter how deep? Not really, but IWD has a solid story combined with significant customization AND you are free to RP the behaviours of your party, which you entirely create. Hence RPG imo. Does anyone still disagree with this? Or are we just discussing Diablo and other similar games?

    BelgarathMTHkcwisejamoecw
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member, Moderator Posts: 11,439
    @Avenger_teambg I think it was Yahtzee Croshaw who said TF2 playing the Sniper is a point and click adventure. But only puzzle you can solve is the same one over and over again. "Use Gun on Man".

    kcwiseMoomintrolljamoecwmolloy
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,336
    I think the who question is irrelevant. They only thing that matters is "is IWD fun"?

    jackjackkcwiseMoomintrollNimran
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:

    scriver said:

    Oh, and @Fardragon - I'm really sorry for your lackluster GM experiences, but no, not all GMs do that.

    There is nothing lackluster about it. If the DM is any good, the players will be unable to tell. The DM creates the world one or two steps ahead of the players. If the players choose to go down path A, then there is no need to create anything down paths B and C. If the players can't see it it doesn't need to exist. DnD quantum mechanics.
    I actually just had this sort of thing happen in my Star Wars Saga Edition game. My players are currently on Dac, the homeworld of the mon calamari and quarren, and they want a holocron from a quarren collector. The quarren is willing to give the holocron to the party if the party helps convince a few politicians of Dac's senate to vote to join the Sith Empire instead of rejoining the Republic. They flat-out refused. I've got the secondary solution ready where they can recruit a former member of Imperial Intelligence to help them break into the collector's vault, but the political hullaballoo was going to be cool. :\

    jamoecwjackjack
  • jamoecwjamoecw Member Posts: 41

    Fardragon said:

    scriver said:

    Oh, and @Fardragon - I'm really sorry for your lackluster GM experiences, but no, not all GMs do that.

    There is nothing lackluster about it. If the DM is any good, the players will be unable to tell. The DM creates the world one or two steps ahead of the players. If the players choose to go down path A, then there is no need to create anything down paths B and C. If the players can't see it it doesn't need to exist. DnD quantum mechanics.
    I actually just had this sort of thing happen in my Star Wars Saga Edition game. My players are currently on Dac, the homeworld of the mon calamari and quarren, and they want a holocron from a quarren collector. The quarren is willing to give the holocron to the party if the party helps convince a few politicians of Dac's senate to vote to join the Sith Empire instead of rejoining the Republic. They flat-out refused. I've got the secondary solution ready where they can recruit a former member of Imperial Intelligence to help them break into the collector's vault, but the political hullaballoo was going to be cool. :\
    ah the DM's burden. always creating content that never sees the light of day.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    jamoecw said:

    Fardragon said:

    scriver said:

    Oh, and @Fardragon - I'm really sorry for your lackluster GM experiences, but no, not all GMs do that.

    There is nothing lackluster about it. If the DM is any good, the players will be unable to tell. The DM creates the world one or two steps ahead of the players. If the players choose to go down path A, then there is no need to create anything down paths B and C. If the players can't see it it doesn't need to exist. DnD quantum mechanics.
    I actually just had this sort of thing happen in my Star Wars Saga Edition game. My players are currently on Dac, the homeworld of the mon calamari and quarren, and they want a holocron from a quarren collector. The quarren is willing to give the holocron to the party if the party helps convince a few politicians of Dac's senate to vote to join the Sith Empire instead of rejoining the Republic. They flat-out refused. I've got the secondary solution ready where they can recruit a former member of Imperial Intelligence to help them break into the collector's vault, but the political hullaballoo was going to be cool. :\
    ah the DM's burden. always creating content that never sees the light of day.
    Yeah...they were going to find out that the Republic Strategic Information Service is running a kidnapping operation to coerce one of the more weighty voters and Imperial Intelligence is funding and directing violent pro-Republic activities to turn public opinion against the Republic.

  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,017
    For me personally, most of the "Personality" and interaction of the NPCs in Baldur's Gate is in my head anyway. From that perspective, regardless of if I create my party members, or I pick up NPCs that someone else created, I am still role playing my party. In that, I give it equal RPG with Baldur's gate. Now admittedly, IWD is a bit more linear than Baldur's gate, but not overly so.

    rufus_hobartkcwiseBelgarathMTH
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 1,638
    I think what's important here isn't whether IWD can be classified as an RPG, but rather whether you enjoy role playing in a game like this. Personally I don't like to role play in IWD, but obviously other people do.

    If you enjoy role playing in IWD, who cares if some people "don't classify it as an RPG?"

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190



    If you enjoy role playing in IWD, who cares if some people "don't classify it as an RPG?"

    I care because it is rife with pretension to call this or that 'not an RPG,' and I loathe pretension.

    QuartzjackjackFardragon
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 2,476
    DreadKhan said:


    Bad news! I checked with my axe.

    She disagrees. And she would like to meet this NASPA for a chat.

    And no, there is nothing strange about her having a beard; lots of axes have beards. Its perfectly healthy and normal.

    Would this be your current axe or your ex-axe?

    I concur--there is nothing wrong with an axe having a beard, especially if you are "All About That Beard" (bout that beard no mustache).

    Schneidendrufus_hobart
  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,416
    edited September 2014
    "Saints Row IV allows you to create your character, you have freedom to go where you want, you can level and upgrade your abilities and also just punch people instead.

    I am RPing an asian martial artist in a game with minimum RPG mechanics. Therefore, I am roleplaying in a roleplaying game!"

    I'm not sure what more to add to make a point.

    Saints Row IV probably allows you much more customization than Diablo 3.
    In both games you kill stuff, grab their weapons, level up, customize your abilities and weapons and do quests and sidequests, as well as customize your appearance.

    Just because you can pretend to roleplay (even if you don't INGAME with dialogue options) in a game with minimum RPG mechanics, it doesn't make it a true roleplaying game.

    What makes Diablo 3 a Role Playing Game, except the levels, loot and the classes?
    Because Saints Row IV provides leveling up, freedom, customization, as well as choosing your "role" (fists vs uzis!, asian vs caucasian!, male vs female!)

    I will repeat, the game must support role-playing options to be considered a role-playing game.
    And such options influence the path your character is taking (good or bad, choosing sides, deciding fates of others, having consequences to your actions) not if they'll use an axe or a sword.

    Because Minecraft is also an RPG by those standards. "You level up! You can do what you want! You can roleplay a builder or a survivor! RPG mechanics! Roleplaying whatever you want even if there's nothing to support it ingame except the player's imagination!"

    Post edited by Archaos on
    elminsterQuartzjamoecw
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,336
    edited September 2014
    Archaos said:

    "Saints Row IV allows you to create your character, you have freedom to go where you want, you can level and upgrade your abilities and also just punch people instead.

    I am RPing an asian martial artist in a game with minimum RPG mechanics. Therefore, I am roleplaying in a roleplaying game!"

    I'm not sure what more to add to make a point.

    Saints Row IV probably allows you much more customization than Diablo 3.
    In both games you kill stuff, grab their weapons, level up, customize your abilities and weapons and do quests and sidequests, as well as customize your appearance.

    Just because you can pretend to roleplay (even if you don't INGAME with dialogue options) in a game with minimum RPG mechanics, it doesn't make it a true roleplaying game.

    What makes Diablo 3 a Role Playing Game, except the levels, loot and the classes?
    Because Saints Row IV provides leveling up, freedom, customization, as well as choosing your "role" (fists vs uzis!, asian vs caucasian!, male vs female!)

    I will repeat, the game must support role-playing options to be considered a role-playing game.
    And such options influence the path your character is taking (good or bad, choosing sides, deciding fates of others, having consequences to your actions) not if they'll use an axe or a sword.

    Because Minecraft is also an RPG by those standards. "You level up! You can do what you want! You can roleplay a builder or a survivor! RPG mechanics! Roleplaying whatever you want even if there's nothing to support it ingame except the player's imagination!"

    You failed to address the key points: Why does it matter, and why should anyone care?

    NimranDreadKhan
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,544

    DreadKhan said:


    Bad news! I checked with my axe.

    She disagrees. And she would like to meet this NASPA for a chat.

    And no, there is nothing strange about her having a beard; lots of axes have beards. Its perfectly healthy and normal.

    Would this be your current axe or your ex-axe?

    I concur--there is nothing wrong with an axe having a beard, especially if you are "All About That Beard" (bout that beard no mustache).
    Agreed, women shouldn't rock mustaches. My axe, she just has dat lovely beard. To help cleave shields of course.

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Archaos said:

    "Saints Row IV allows you to create your character, you have freedom to go where you want, you can level and upgrade your abilities and also just punch people instead.

    I am RPing an asian martial artist in a game with minimum RPG mechanics. Therefore, I am roleplaying in a roleplaying game!"

    I'm not sure what more to add to make a point.

    Saints Row IV probably allows you much more customization than Diablo 3.
    In both games you kill stuff, grab their weapons, level up, customize your abilities and weapons and do quests and sidequests, as well as customize your appearance.

    Just because you can pretend to roleplay (even if you don't INGAME with dialogue options) in a game with minimum RPG mechanics, it doesn't make it a true roleplaying game.

    What makes Diablo 3 a Role Playing Game, except the levels, loot and the classes?
    Because Saints Row IV provides leveling up, freedom, customization, as well as choosing your "role" (fists vs uzis!, asian vs caucasian!, male vs female!)

    I will repeat, the game must support role-playing options to be considered a role-playing game.
    And such options influence the path your character is taking (good or bad, choosing sides, deciding fates of others, having consequences to your actions) not if they'll use an axe or a sword.

    Because Minecraft is also an RPG by those standards. "You level up! You can do what you want! You can roleplay a builder or a survivor! RPG mechanics! Roleplaying whatever you want even if there's nothing to support it ingame except the player's imagination!"

    Again, you're kind of putting your foot in your mouth, here, as you did with Metal Gear Solid. Saint's Row does support roleplay, per your definition, by letting you make decisions and having those decisions affect the game world and the lives of the characters. Some members of your crew will live or die based on your actions, and some will join you or remain enemies, etc. I haven't played IV, but that's been a constant theme throughout the franchise.

    But, no, Saint's Row doesn't really have more customization than Diablo, at least not mechanical customization. Naturally, you've got a huge amount of agency over your character's appearance, voice, and attitude in the Saint's Row games. When you unlock new abilities in Saint's Row III, though, they're just like faster reloads with certain weapons types or better braking with certain cars. You don't have to choose a particular set of abilities, and when you get crazy super powers from missions or DLC you don't need to pick one over another, etc. Diablo 3 has your active skills, the runes that change how they function (sometimes dramatically), and passive skills, which do everything from providing passive boosts to major game changers like taking away your chance to dodge but dramatically increasing your chance to block. Then, there's your gear, and many of the Legendary or Set items can alter how your character feels and plays. Many high-level builds are centered around at least one Legendary that does something bonkers, like a belt that causes a big explosion whenever you pick up health globes.

    And, as has been stated, Diablo 3's sidequests affect the narrative arc of the companion characters. Without them, they're left with whatever hangups they had before you talked to them to get them to reveal the quests. Lyndon will always regret how things went down with his brother, Kormac will never know the secret of his origins or the true depths of his order's corruption, and Eirena will continue to be haunted by the spirits of her sisters and the guilt of not being able to help them. That changes the story, both in the actual narrative and likely the player's perception thereof.

    jamoecw
  • DemaniusDemanius Member Posts: 50
    Wow lots of points and debating I like it :)

    Ill give IWD EE a go as I never played the original.

    Diablo 3 shited me up the wall with that stupid action house and real money trading.

    Is it worth playing after all the fixes. I re downloaded it but the BG EE games are taking my time and rightly so lol

    Oh and league of legends, pm me if u wanna add me if u play.

    Sorry Abit off Topic lol

  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Demanius said:



    Diablo 3 shited me up the wall with that stupid action house and real money trading.

    Is it worth playing after all the fixes. I re downloaded it but the BG EE games are taking my time and rightly so lol

    Yes. It is definitely worth playing with the latest patches.

    Fardragon
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,336
    Demanius said:

    Wow lots of points and debating I like it :)

    Ill give IWD EE a go as I never played the original.

    Diablo 3 shited me up the wall with that stupid action house and real money trading.

    Is it worth playing after all the fixes. I re downloaded it but the BG EE games are taking my time and rightly so lol

    Oh and league of legends, pm me if u wanna add me if u play.

    Sorry Abit off Topic lol

    Yes, it is. For BG and IWD fans, make sure you talk to everyone, especially your companions.

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