Skip to content

If Gandalf was a specialist mage....

2»

Comments

  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    SergeTroy said:

    I'm not sure gnomes have kneecaps. I mean, really, where would you put them, is there space? I always figured they were like Ents and didn't have much in the way of bendy parts.

    Would explain the creaking, or maybe that's just @Anduin, what with the 'mummy' thing.
    Anduin
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,714
    An evidence Gandalf likes turnips:

    "Me (Frodo) and Mr Gandalf had a nice turnip sandwich there we did and a nice glass of prune rum we did to..."

    https://www.facebook.com/FairmontSavoy/posts/10151801421127656
    FinneousPJAnduin
  • VedwintheTyrantVedwintheTyrant Member Posts: 50
    In Moria Gandalf used words of power to hold a door against the Balrog. In the Battle of the Pelennor Fields he struck at the Nazgul with rays of light. I always felt that when he broke his staff on the Bridge of Khazad Dum the magic came from him rather than the staff.
  • WebShamanWebShaman Member Posts: 490
    Gandalf as one of the Maiar has spell-like abilities. He does not memorize spells, nor does he have to. One would consider him an Outsider, as a Race.

    As for why he did not throw magic right and left (by using his spell-like abilities at every turn or opportunity) is quite simple - he was not allowed to. The Maiar were send to Middle-Earth to help elves, dwarves, men, and hobbits. They were to guide and advise and help against the servants of Morgoth (particularly Sauron, one of Morgoth's lieutenants).

    Apparently in the fight against the Balor in Moria, Gandalf was allowed to use his abilities to full (much of which of course is not documented, as only Gandalf and the defeated Balor were witness to).

    As such, there is no Class that can compentently encase that which is Gandalf. He is quite simply a lesser God, with spell-like abilities.
    FinneousPJDexterJuliusBorisov
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018

    In Moria Gandalf used words of power to hold a door against the Balrog. In the Battle of the Pelennor Fields he struck at the Nazgul with rays of light. I always felt that when he broke his staff on the Bridge of Khazad Dum the magic came from him rather than the staff.

    You are thinking of the movies. In the book, there was no fight against the Nazgul. He confronted the fiend at the gate, but there was no fight. At least not between Gandalf and the Nazgul. They flashed things up in the movies a bit.

    As far as the magic coming from his staff, there is a fair amount of references in Tolkein's work to support that. When they finally break Saurman, Gandalf takes his staff. In Theoden's palace, it is the staff that is supposed to be forbidden. And there are other references I am sure.

    I'd think there would be an argument for making him a Diviner. He is a knowledge seeker at minimum. He knows what and uses the Palantir.
  • LateralusLateralus Member Posts: 903
    Invoker/Druid.
  • SergeTroySergeTroy Member Posts: 86

    In Moria Gandalf used words of power to hold a door against the Balrog. In the Battle of the Pelennor Fields he struck at the Nazgul with rays of light. I always felt that when he broke his staff on the Bridge of Khazad Dum the magic came from him rather than the staff.

    You are thinking of the movies. In the book, there was no fight against the Nazgul. He confronted the fiend at the gate, but there was no fight. At least not between Gandalf and the Nazgul. They flashed things up in the movies a bit.

    As far as the magic coming from his staff, there is a fair amount of references in Tolkein's work to support that. When they finally break Saurman, Gandalf takes his staff. In Theoden's palace, it is the staff that is supposed to be forbidden. And there are other references I am sure.

    I'd think there would be an argument for making him a Diviner. He is a knowledge seeker at minimum. He knows what and uses the Palantir.
    Actually, that's not true. When Gandald rode out past the gate to rescue Faramir from some Nazgul, there were observers on the wall. (Might have been Pippin) that saw a flash of light from Gandalf & his staff. Fights that absolutely did not occur was Gandalf's beat down of Denethor, who was nowhere near as weak as portrayed in the movies. Had Gandalf actually done that he would have been exiled or executed, obviously most likely the former (wizards and all) Denethor may not have been in Aragorns class but there were suggestions he had a stronger will than Saruman, and was wholeheartedly supported by his people.

    The willpower reference is in regards usage of the Palantir; pretty sure Saruman was initially ensnared while Denethor, while only able to see what Sauron wanted him to see, was too strong to be dominated by the Lord of Mordor.
    JuliusBorisovVedwintheTyrant
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745


    As such, there is no Class that can compentently encase that which is Gandalf. He is quite simply a lesser God, with spell-like abilities.

    A lesser god with spell like abilities?

    That pretty much sums up a lvl 40 Gnome Illusionist on stilts...

    *Anduin climbs onto his rocking horse*

    Prove me wrong mister! Show me the knees! Show me the KNEES!

    ...

    I love this forum.
    Soren_The_WildJuliusBorisovNimranKlorox
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    Gandalf needs fire or combustibles to work with (sorry if this has already been said).

    These are from memory (mostly) so likely fraught with inaccuracies.

    -He uses the sparks from burning torches to immolate the goblins that capture the dwarves (in The Hobbit)

    -When trapped in the pine trees, he lights pine cones with his staff.

    -Legolas suggest he melt the snow on the path up the Redhorn Gate, but he cannot "burn snow" and says he needs something to work with.

    -When attacked by Wargs on the way back down, toward the doors of Moria, he uses a burning torch as the "fuel" for his "spell". Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth Though i don't think there is anything formulaic suggested in the words, is it a spell? or just vocalisation of his intent? - his inner power/ the ring Narya being manifested.

    He puts a sort of lock, warding spell on a door.

    To me, his power has always seemed innate, in some degree, given what we know of his original nature. Though perhaps the red ring gives some new form to his potential.
    booinyoureyesJuliusBorisov
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    SergeTroy said:


    Actually, that's not true. When Gandald rode out past the gate to rescue Faramir from some Nazgul, there were observers on the wall. (Might have been Pippin) that saw a flash of light from Gandalf & his staff. Fights that absolutely did not occur was Gandalf's beat down of Denethor, who was nowhere near as weak as portrayed in the movies. Had Gandalf actually done that he would have been exiled or executed, obviously most likely the former (wizards and all) Denethor may not have been in Aragorns class but there were suggestions he had a stronger will than Saruman, and was wholeheartedly supported by his people.

    The willpower reference is in regards usage of the Palantir; pretty sure Saruman was initially ensnared while Denethor, while only able to see what Sauron wanted him to see, was too strong to be dominated by the Lord of Mordor.

    I do seem to remember something of the rescue of Faramir, it's true. But it was nothing as blatant as was shown in the movie, more of a suggestion that something was happening. As you say "someone on the wall saw".

    There absolutely was no battle with the Nazgul when he breached the gate and Eowyn struck him down. Literally he stood in the court yard and stood his ground. No battle. At least no mage battle.

    I like the books better (though the movies were awesome) precisely because things were more understated.

    As a side note, 'The battle of the five armies' that will make up the final installment of 'The hobbit' was one single chapter and not very detailed. It will be interesting to see how they bulk up what should be a single scene into an entire (most of) movie. Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the 'interpretation' of The Hobbit, but it bears very little resemblance to the book.

    Moomintroll
  • SergeTroySergeTroy Member Posts: 86
    Yeah well what can you do there. I have to say for myself I actually enjoyed The Hobbit's first installment as a movie more than I did the Lord of the Rings, which vaguely depresses. In high school I devoured that book and still hold it up as one of the greatest triumphs in fiction, while the Hobbit I see more of as a fun side trip, the equivalent of a DnD quest vs. A World Spanning Campaign of Mythic proportions (LotR). The Fellowship of the Ring enthralled me for, say 30 minutes. After that I was bored out of my mind. For myself it would have worked better as a series, like they're (failing *cough*) to do with Game of Thrones.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    Illusionist

    Because he gives the illusion that he's a really powerful mage yet all he can do is make the top of his staff light up. And after he runs out of his brilliant spell "Summon Lightbulb" what does he do? He hits orcs with a stick.

    Gimme Hermoine all day, any day.
  • VedwintheTyrantVedwintheTyrant Member Posts: 50
    edited October 2014

    In Moria Gandalf used words of power to hold a door against the Balrog. In the Battle of the Pelennor Fields he struck at the Nazgul with rays of light. I always felt that when he broke his staff on the Bridge of Khazad Dum the magic came from him rather than the staff.

    You are thinking of the movies. In the book, there was no fight against the Nazgul. He confronted the fiend at the gate, but there was no fight. At least not between Gandalf and the Nazgul. They flashed things up in the movies a bit.

    As far as the magic coming from his staff, there is a fair amount of references in Tolkein's work to support that. When they finally break Saurman, Gandalf takes his staff. In Theoden's palace, it is the staff that is supposed to be forbidden. And there are other references I am sure.

    I'd think there would be an argument for making him a Diviner. He is a knowledge seeker at minimum. He knows what and uses the Palantir.
    Wait a minute. There's a lot I'll let slide based on an interest in promoting the story in whatever form it comes in, but as a purist myself I won't stand for being told I'm thinking of the movie when it's the book I look to first. The reason that there is a hold portal spell in the D&D game is because of the altercation between Gandalf and the Balrog which starts long before the confrontation on the bridge.

    Unfortunately I don't have a copy of the book with me at the moment, or I would quote you a line and page number. However, after Pippin accidentally knocks a bucket down one of the wells, the fellowship discovers the book of Mazarbul with the remains of Balin's ill fated expedition. A fight erupts in which Frodo is struck with a spear. His companions assume he has been killed, and he attempts to make light of the fact that Bilbo's coat of rings saved his life. To save themselves from the vast number of Orcs (called Goblins by the Hobbits) the fellowship retreats. A terrible drumming starts and Gandalf has a presentiment that something worse is pursuing them. His fears are confirmed (to him, not the reader) when he attempts to bar the path of the pursuers by ensorcelling a door. The goblins batter at the door to no effect. Then, something more powerful tries to force the door--either by main strength or by dark magic, it's not entirely clear, and it's most likely to be both. Gandlaf uses one of the words of power and the door explodes--at which point he apprehends that there is an enemy who is a match for him (still not entirely revealed to the reader) and the company flees in earnest.

    Furthermore, when Gandalf arrives in Minas Tirith with the Pippin, Merry, Legolas, and Aragorn they discover that King Denethor is worried about the fate of his son Faramir, who--after allowing Frodo and Sam to go their way--has been charged with defending Osgiliath against Sauron's approaching troops. That's why there's a free peoples' captain in the Osgiliath region of the War of the Ring tactical board game. Faramir has been hard beset, because the ring wraiths--in this part of the narrative referred to as the Captains of Despair--have been destroying the moral of his troops with their shrieking. At the time when Gandalf hears this news the troops from Osgiliath have broken into a fighting retreat, and Faramir is wounded. To secure his body, Gandalf leads a lone charge from the gates of the city. He drives the ring wraiths from the field with rays of light and rescues Faramir.

    While the characters in Tolkien's world mistake Gandalf's staff for the source of his power it has been clearly noted by other posters that he himself is of the Maiar and any power he wields comes to him because the Valar grant that it should. Certainly the staff is a tool which allows him to use his abilities in certain ways, but I have always felt we are meant to know the ignorance of the non-wizards by their recognition of the tool and their obliviousness to the hand that moves it. As Gandalf himself points out, his greatest power lies in being a servant of the secret fire from which Iluvatar made the Ainur. Therefore, as the Valar granted that the Bridge of Khazad Dum should be broken the feat would have been accomplished no matter what object Gandalf held in his possession at the time.

    Finally, as the portfolio of spells present in Dungeons and Dragons proceeds from Tolkien's work and not the other way around the most useful way to answer this question is to count up the number of things which Gandalf did in the books which have since become spells and then to reference the schools assigned to those spells (abjuration for hold portal, enchantment or conjuration for the words of power depending on edition, evocation for sunbeam although it's a cleric spell) and see if a pattern emerges.
    Post edited by VedwintheTyrant on
    FinneousPJJuliusBorisov
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875

    Illusionist

    Because he gives the illusion that he's a really powerful mage yet all he can do is make the top of his staff light up. And after he runs out of his brilliant spell "Summon Lightbulb" what does he do? He hits orcs with a stick.

    Gimme Hermoine all day, any day.

    Aragorn: Legolas, we need your bow!

    Legolas shoots bow.

    Aragon: Gimli, we need your axe!

    Gimli swings axe.

    Aragon: Gandalf, we need your staff!

    Gandalf charges into fray with staff.

    Aragon: *facepalm*
    DexterbooinyoureyesNonnahswriterJuliusBorisov
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Yes, but clearly you are seeing the spell mislead in action.
    ...
    Hang on! Thats another illusionist spell favoured by gnomes... Evidence stacking up now...
    MoomintrollbooinyoureyesNimranJuliusBorisov
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @VedwintheTyrant - first of all, no offense was intended. Clearly you love the books as much as I do and I did not mean to offend. Quite a few 'Fans' of the stories make the common mistake of confusing the movies for the books and when statements were made that were contradictory to the books, I assumed. My bad.

    As far as it goes, I do now recall the scene in Moria that you describe and yes, Gandalf does do some form of magic to bar the door. However, it isn't Gandalf that explodes the door, it is whatever is pushing from the other side.

    Regarding Gandalf's rescue of Faramir, I conceded earlier that I was mistaken there. However, the account of that is rather vague and does not go into detail about what spells he casts, nor even how many.

    Finally, you are right that Gandalf is supposed to be a member of the Maiar. That explains why he doesn't appear to age, and why he is so interested in the goings on and doings of the various races of Middle Earth. However, it is never explicitly spelled out (anywhere that I've read) what else that means, or what other powers he might have 'Because' of that. On the other hand, there are numerous references to a wizard's staff being the source of his magic. He in fact states it outright when he takes Saruman's staff from him outside of Orthanc. And there is still the matter of the third elven ring. Gandalf is not wanting for sources of magic, yet he still doesn't over-encumber the story with displays of same.

    In the end, I stand by my initial statements that Gandalf does not do an excessive amount of magic. He relies mostly on his knowledge. Even when facing the Balrog, he relies mostly on Glamdring rather than any sort of spell.

    Can he do magic? Certainly. The lightning bolt in the goblin caves during the hobbit. The Pyrotechnics in the cave of the goblin king likewise. The pine cone affair still later in the same book. And we've talked about what happens in The Lord of the Rings. But if you compare him to a D&D Wizard, there is a clear disparity.
    booinyoureyesMoomintroll
  • VedwintheTyrantVedwintheTyrant Member Posts: 50
    Lightning bolt is an evocation. Pyrotechnics is a transmutation. The spell which mimics Gandalf's use of the pine cones is called fire seeds, and, while it is a druid spell, it is also a conjuration.
  • VedwintheTyrantVedwintheTyrant Member Posts: 50
    This is going off a previous post; the illusion of horses could be as simple as silent image, an illusion. Light is an evocation. The spell Gandalf used to disarm Legolas, Aragorn, and Gimli is heat metal, another druid spell from the transmutation school. I never counted any of the times Gandalf was impressive in the presence of other people as spells--to me his castigation of Wormtongue was simply the justice of a greater mind to a lesser. If you want to count opening the doors to Moria as a spell it's called knock, and it's a transmutation. Talking to the eagles would have been tongues which is a divination. His fireworks would simply have been a different application of pyrotechnics.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    However, equally, talking with Eagles could merely have been linguistic. Maybe he learned their language, and they that of Man. Also, opening Moria, he may have been 'Trying' several open spells, but the doors themselves were open via the magic already extant in that location. He spoke the elvish word for friend and they opened, by design.

    I agree that his 'Presence' effects used in various locations throughout the books was largely just him.

    More and more, I think he was an illusionist. Even the light show he put on at weathertop and presumably outside the gates of Minas Tirith, could have merely been just that. Flash bang lights. Who knows?
  • SergeTroySergeTroy Member Posts: 86
    edited October 2014
    Shadowfax. We should have seen it. Maybe Pippin was right and it was all a dream...
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    And here's another wrinkle. Tolkein himself was a bit of a Luddite. There are many places were it is obvious that he thought of nature as good and pure whereas technology was evil. From that premise, the fact that his 'Wizards' were more druidic in nature probably makes a whole lot of sense.
    Klorox
Sign In or Register to comment.