It's interesting how all have come to this. I should say this is not a thread about powergamers vs role players.
This thread, the OP in its core, is meant to tell us: "Hey, if you're playing IWDEE, don't overlook an Inquisitor by default. Maybe you heard somewhere that if you want a Pally in IWDEE, you should take a cavalier/an undead hunter/a blackguard instead. But an Inquisitor is not so bad. It's a fine class, maybe not the most powerful even among the Paladin fellows in IWDEE, but still you can freely take it."
I very much support this OP and the idea in its main: don't be afraid to play an Inquisitor, she may come useful even in IWDEE.
That's the way I understood it too but honestly that message is flawed as the abilities of an inquisitor are rubbish and the penalties are steep.
If you've played literally every other paladin (including vanilla) and are determined to play something different then go ahead and try the kit. You'll be disappointed but at least I'll get to tell you "I told you so."
I'd assume anyone who doesn't have a warped view of the game's difficulty would think so.
That's why I've always been against vague, nonsensical terms like "playable" or "valid". They don't actually mean anything, the context is just too vastly different for objective categories.
I completely support the OP on this, the Inquisitor can be a lot of fun and make an important contribution. Of course I have no doubt every class, Kit and multi combination can be a lot of fun for someone. It's that range of mood and style that always makes AD&D intriguing. I'm also currently enjoying a Barabarian, Kensai and Skald for the first time ever in IWD. And it's not just the variety of the new classes and kits, it's all the permutations for a party. Not every character has to be "powerful", I like figuring out how best to use every character whether their strengths are obvious are not.
I just got great use of my inquisitor's True Sight powers against at least three drow sorcerers in middle Dorn's Deep who cast Mirror Images. I got at least four very good uses of instacast Dispel Magic against drow lead fighters who cast Stoneskins. At one point, my inquisitor dispelled Stoneskins against three of them at once who were about to kick our four-member party's arses if my inquisitor hadn't dispelled those Stoneskins.
I get that a lot of people don't want to use an inquisitor and believe that there are better choices, especially in a four member party like mine. (It's an inquisitor, a cleric of Lathander, a fighter-thief, of whom I felt guilty about succumbing to temptation and making her a multi-class, and me as a sorcerer.)
But calling the "True Sight" ability "useless" just isn't true. There's a lot of hyperbole being used in the inquisitor-hate posts around the forum, in my opinion. Some people are just really invested in dissing the kit for IWD, apparently, and that's okay, as long as one doesn't deliberately belittle or insult others who have a different playstyle ("Since you disagree with me, that means you're just a bad player"), or want something different out of the game. (I, for example, want a four-member party where each of the four have *distinct* roles. I will always use one warrior, one cleric, one thief, and one arcane caster. But one of the things that is wonderful about IWD:EE is that all of the new choices give me an almost overwhelming variety of ways to realize my "Fantastic Four", and thus a very delightful replayability to an old favorite).
I would also remind everyone that I am still playing a no-reload on Core Rules with my Fantastic Four using my inquisitor as my sole warrior class. I have just finished Dorn's Deep, all levels. My inquisitor was a very valuable player in the process.
Perhaps the disconnect I have with my detractors has something to do with difficulty levels and their variations, then, such as no-reload or not, number of party members, HoF from level one or not, and that sort of thing?
Oh, well. All I ever wanted to say with this thread is that the inquisitor is a perfectly good warrior class for IWD. I'm having a lot of fun with mine.
@BelgarathMTH That's fine but "your detractors" just don't understand why you wouldn't prefer to have your cleric or sorcerer cast dispel magic to remove stone skins and mirror images.
Both of these characters are better suited to it as they can cast more times per day and - at least with your sorcerer - should be at the back line to avoid the disables that cause potential problems.
What of the opportunity cost? You save 1 level 3 spell slot on your sorcerer but lose every spell slot on your paladin along with a suite of other abilities.
You're grasping at straws. The simple message that needs to be acknowledged is that in IWDee the inquisitor is worse than any other warrior kit or pure class. In fact, it's so bad that it's closer in abilities to a Fallen Paladin than it's closest other competitor.
Then again, I've always had a pretty low opinion of the Beastmaster kit. Though even that has spells and abilities that are actually useful in IWDee despite the item restrictions.
@Wowo, well, I'm willing to engage with you and try to be friends, but you continue to use inflammatory language, as though what you really want to do is to fight, and not to share with friends. "You're grasping at straws." Really? You're that invested in fighting with me as one human being who enjoys IWD to another human being who enjoys IWD?
The reason I don't want my cleric or sorcerer to use Dispel Magic is that my cleric can be free to use his third level spell slots for other really useful things, like Cure Serious Wounds, Exaltation, or Remove Paralysis. But especailly those wonderful Cure Serious Wounds spells, since I really don't like unrealistic rest cycles, instead preferring to rest at at least somewhat realistic intervals in order to increase my immersion, and, having my healer actually spend most of his spell slots on healing, increases the intervals between "rests".
And, with my inquisitor handling the Dispel Magic duties as well as the True Sight duties, my sorcerer, mage, or bard is free to have his spell slots invested in all the other wonderful third level arcane spell goodness, such as Melf's Minute Meteors, Fireball, Slow, Haste, or Fire Arrow.
C'mon, dude. :jabs @Wowo in the ribs, attempting to tickle him a little:, we geeks who love D&D need to stick together and love each other, not to fight with each other. In Torm's name...
There are still a few enemies who use protections, mirror images, or invisibilty. As long as that stands, Inquisitors won't be useless. True Sight won't be useless, and a more powerful dispel ability on an inquisitor won't be useless.
@BelgarathMTH I have very similar feeling on the Inquisitor, I have a full six person party going with three Paladins (my paladin theme run!). Thanks to my Inquisitor and her instant dispel I just had the fastest, easiest encounter with Malavon of any play through I've ever had. When the mage popped behind my party with full protections up, I hit him with that dispel, and my other characters cleaned the floor with him in less than a round. I was speechless. I'm used to that being a more challenging fight! The "instant" factor was brutally critical to that fight.
That doesn't make the Inquisitor any more "indispensable" than any other single character. But at that place and time, that specific kit made a big difference.
@Wowo, well, I'm willing to engage with you and try to be friends, but you continue to use inflammatory language, as though what you really want to do is to fight, and not to share with friends. "You're grasping at straws." Really? You're that invested in fighting with me as one human being who enjoys IWD to another human being who enjoys IWD?
The reason I don't want my cleric or sorcerer to use Dispel Magic is that my cleric can be free to use his third level spell slots for other really useful things, like Cure Serious Wounds, Exaltation, or Remove Paralysis. But especailly those wonderful Cure Serious Wounds spells, since I really don't like unrealistic rest cycles, instead preferring to rest at at least somewhat realistic intervals in order to increase my immersion, and, having my healer actually spend most of his spell slots on healing, increases the intervals between "rests".
And, with my inquisitor handling the Dispel Magic duties as well as the True Sight duties, my sorcerer, mage, or bard is free to have his spell slots invested in all the other wonderful third level arcane spell goodness, such as Melf's Minute Meteors, Fireball, Slow, Haste, or Fire Arrow.
C'mon, dude. :jabs @Wowo in the ribs, attempting to tickle him a little:, we geeks who love D&D need to stick together and love each other, not to fight with each other. In Torm's name...
I feel you and even though my language is direct it isn't intended to be personal or inflammatory.
Having noticed the mechanics of dispel magic in IWDee I actually think that every sorcerer should have it as it's always going to work.
It is an opportunity cost though. Whichever way you slice it the amount of extra things your paladin could do with another kit vastly outweigh the cost to your sorcerer and cleric for picking up the slack.
There are still a few enemies who use protections, mirror images, or invisibilty. As long as that stands, Inquisitors won't be useless. True Sight won't be useless, and a more powerful dispel ability on an inquisitor won't be useless.
How did we go from "underappreciated" to "useless"? No one in their right mind is arguing that Inquisitors are USELESS (or any class for that matter). All people argue is that they are, objectively and for the most part, WORSE than alternatives. Yes they have things they can do, and yes those things are situationally useful - but that's just not enough. As @Wowo pointed out, it's very easy and very cheap to gain the Inquisitor's advantages in some other way, which is entirely sufficient for the few situations where they might be useful - so all you're left with in the end is a Paladin with downsides.
But just to be clear, this assessment says NOTHING about personal choice. You can do whatever you want, as can anyone and should. Nor is this a dichotomy; things are not either "powergaming" or "useless", and portraying them as such is inappropriate and reckless. There are certain characteristics and aspects of game mechanics that can be objectively compared, that is all. And in that objective comparison, Inquisitor does not end up in a favorable place relative to similar alternative choices, for the reasons exhaustively outlined in this thread. That's the "baseline" if you so will, and if you want to adapt your play style to move things up or down in favor of certain setups, that is entirely fine and also your own personal choice. But it doesn't change the objective baseline.
A Paladin also gets Dispel Magic. So really saying the Inquisitor casts Dispel Magic instead of the Sorcerer or Cleric is pretty pointless other than echoing what the class description says
Also most no reload stuff is really just an excercise of metagame knowledge.I haven't reloaded once in my Solo Sorc HoF playthrough. Doesn't really mean much to me because I know what to expect. If anything reloading just means I forgot something rather than my character/party being incapable of doing something and I need to RNG my way through.
Wow from under-appreciated to useless to no-reload games are just meh anyway when it comes to challenge and this isn't about powergaming vs useless? Could have fooled me...
Wow from under-appreciated to useless to no-reload games are just meh anyway when it comes to challenge and this isn't about powergaming vs useless? Could have fooled me...
I'm confused.
How do you define useless? Is a Fallen Paladin useless? He still has full equipment options, additional attacks and damage from specialisation and warrior levels and good hit dice. So, a Fallen Paladin isn't useless and neither is an Inquisitor as an Inquisitor can do all of that plus also has a couple of other situational perks that are easily replaced by other characters with very limited impact.
Slightly more useful than a Fallen Paladin. Not useless, see?
So why is everyone so stuck up on the roleplaying part of the game rather than the game part? Isn't this a game, where the goal is to win? Do sports stars try to roleplay the playoffs or are they playing to win! Where has the competitive edge gone?!
Anyway, I don't see Wowo using adhominem attacks as you're claiming. While he might not be talking in a manner that's buddy buddy, he's not being mean, just factual. Again, think like a teacher, except he's doing this unapprectated work for free.
Wow from under-appreciated to useless to no-reload games are just meh anyway when it comes to challenge and this isn't about powergaming vs useless? Could have fooled me...
At the risk of continuing to be hated/wanted dead/almost literally spat upon, I'm gonna compare
Nobody is calling it useless, just inefficient as a long term, and short term investment.
Let's use a different example: Clerics
In the short term, a single classed cleric levels very fast and has useful spell, including kit specials. This tends to dim out however by about lvl 16 as multi and dual class clerics start to catch up with the added bonuses from their other classes.
Is the class useless? Hell no, but mid way through HoW, you'll probably wish your cleric had either some augmentative arcana or more APR and THAC0. By the time you're in HoF, you're likely relegated to the role of divine caster and maybe offtank. Are you useless? No, but the level cap of 30 is hit very soon, and not much is really gained for being beyond 20.
Compare this to a cleric with 7 levels of fighter. He can still hit the cap, but with grandmastery, an extra half attack per round and exceptional strength (this is somewhat fixable by items and DUHM, but doesn't hurt.) At first, he's only a fighter, a somewhat gimped fighter as his ranged weapon of choice is less than desirable, but he functions. Your team might suffer if he plans to be your only source of divine magic. Once you reach your desired dual point, he's also a burden, a Lvl 1 Cleric only saved by his Lvl X fighter health.
Once all this is gained back, it's not long before the dual class outdoes the original as leveling becomes slow and you are at best 1 cleric level behind a single class, but able to reach GM, strike more than once per round naturally and have an extra 5*fighter level extra health for every level less than 10.
You could also play it safe and go for a multiclass cleric/fighter or ranger, removing much of the early game detriment and the dual classed drag period.
In the end, the choice is yours, but in HoF... ah who am I kidding, I'm going to guess that nobody is actually gonna give me a grain of salt unless it's thrown at my face.
Seriously, seriously, how is there' still someone who thinks people are saying the Inquisitor is useless.
How the hell does anyone still come up with that ridiculous conclusion at this point?
C'mon people, apply some logic, worst Paladin kit doesn't equate to useless.
Also I never said no reload is a meh challenge I said no reload is more about metagaming. So any party that can handle everything will work in a no reload game as long as the player knows enough about what to expect.
This thread has gotten completely out-of-hand and even a bit hostile. Why don't we all take a deep breath and admit that we might just be at an impasse?
Much as I still love my inquisitor warrior who is leading my party in my current, four-member party in IWD:EE, and how I wanted to share how much I like him and why, could we maybe just close this thread now, since it seems to be unfortunately generating animosity among forum members?
@Heindrich , @LadyRhian , @Dee, @Metalloman, @bengoshi, @Shandyr, or any other moderators that I can't think of (I just listed six that I consider personal forum friends), could we please just shut my humble little inquisitor-loving thread down now?
I never intended any hostility, vitriol, or provocation to fighting. Rather, it was just meant to be a humble little thread by a humble little arcane (or sometimes divine, or sometimes musical) supporter of the Order of the Most Radiant Heart, with a subtle (or not so subtle) little attempt to establish a foothold for the Order in Icewind Dale, as one of the Order's very, very rare accepted members who practice arcane magic.
My masters and close friends Keldorn, Anomen, and I thank you.
Comments
If you've played literally every other paladin (including vanilla) and are determined to play something different then go ahead and try the kit. You'll be disappointed but at least I'll get to tell you "I told you so."
I'm also currently enjoying a Barabarian, Kensai and Skald for the first time ever in IWD. And it's not just the variety of the new classes and kits, it's all the permutations for a party. Not every character has to be "powerful", I like figuring out how best to use every character whether their strengths are obvious are not.
I get that a lot of people don't want to use an inquisitor and believe that there are better choices, especially in a four member party like mine. (It's an inquisitor, a cleric of Lathander, a fighter-thief, of whom I felt guilty about succumbing to temptation and making her a multi-class, and me as a sorcerer.)
But calling the "True Sight" ability "useless" just isn't true. There's a lot of hyperbole being used in the inquisitor-hate posts around the forum, in my opinion. Some people are just really invested in dissing the kit for IWD, apparently, and that's okay, as long as one doesn't deliberately belittle or insult others who have a different playstyle ("Since you disagree with me, that means you're just a bad player"), or want something different out of the game. (I, for example, want a four-member party where each of the four have *distinct* roles. I will always use one warrior, one cleric, one thief, and one arcane caster. But one of the things that is wonderful about IWD:EE is that all of the new choices give me an almost overwhelming variety of ways to realize my "Fantastic Four", and thus a very delightful replayability to an old favorite).
I would also remind everyone that I am still playing a no-reload on Core Rules with my Fantastic Four using my inquisitor as my sole warrior class. I have just finished Dorn's Deep, all levels. My inquisitor was a very valuable player in the process.
Perhaps the disconnect I have with my detractors has something to do with difficulty levels and their variations, then, such as no-reload or not, number of party members, HoF from level one or not, and that sort of thing?
Oh, well. All I ever wanted to say with this thread is that the inquisitor is a perfectly good warrior class for IWD. I'm having a lot of fun with mine.
Both of these characters are better suited to it as they can cast more times per day and - at least with your sorcerer - should be at the back line to avoid the disables that cause potential problems.
What of the opportunity cost? You save 1 level 3 spell slot on your sorcerer but lose every spell slot on your paladin along with a suite of other abilities.
You're grasping at straws. The simple message that needs to be acknowledged is that in IWDee the inquisitor is worse than any other warrior kit or pure class. In fact, it's so bad that it's closer in abilities to a Fallen Paladin than it's closest other competitor.
Then again, I've always had a pretty low opinion of the Beastmaster kit. Though even that has spells and abilities that are actually useful in IWDee despite the item restrictions.
The reason I don't want my cleric or sorcerer to use Dispel Magic is that my cleric can be free to use his third level spell slots for other really useful things, like Cure Serious Wounds, Exaltation, or Remove Paralysis. But especailly those wonderful Cure Serious Wounds spells, since I really don't like unrealistic rest cycles, instead preferring to rest at at least somewhat realistic intervals in order to increase my immersion, and, having my healer actually spend most of his spell slots on healing, increases the intervals between "rests".
And, with my inquisitor handling the Dispel Magic duties as well as the True Sight duties, my sorcerer, mage, or bard is free to have his spell slots invested in all the other wonderful third level arcane spell goodness, such as Melf's Minute Meteors, Fireball, Slow, Haste, or Fire Arrow.
C'mon, dude. :jabs @Wowo in the ribs, attempting to tickle him a little:, we geeks who love D&D need to stick together and love each other, not to fight with each other. In Torm's name...
That doesn't make the Inquisitor any more "indispensable" than any other single character. But at that place and time, that specific kit made a big difference.
Having noticed the mechanics of dispel magic in IWDee I actually think that every sorcerer should have it as it's always going to work.
It is an opportunity cost though. Whichever way you slice it the amount of extra things your paladin could do with another kit vastly outweigh the cost to your sorcerer and cleric for picking up the slack.
But just to be clear, this assessment says NOTHING about personal choice. You can do whatever you want, as can anyone and should. Nor is this a dichotomy; things are not either "powergaming" or "useless", and portraying them as such is inappropriate and reckless. There are certain characteristics and aspects of game mechanics that can be objectively compared, that is all. And in that objective comparison, Inquisitor does not end up in a favorable place relative to similar alternative choices, for the reasons exhaustively outlined in this thread. That's the "baseline" if you so will, and if you want to adapt your play style to move things up or down in favor of certain setups, that is entirely fine and also your own personal choice. But it doesn't change the objective baseline.
Also most no reload stuff is really just an excercise of metagame knowledge.I haven't reloaded once in my Solo Sorc HoF playthrough. Doesn't really mean much to me because I know what to expect. If anything reloading just means I forgot something rather than my character/party being incapable of doing something and I need to RNG my way through.
How do you define useless? Is a Fallen Paladin useless? He still has full equipment options, additional attacks and damage from specialisation and warrior levels and good hit dice. So, a Fallen Paladin isn't useless and neither is an Inquisitor as an Inquisitor can do all of that plus also has a couple of other situational perks that are easily replaced by other characters with very limited impact.
Slightly more useful than a Fallen Paladin. Not useless, see?
Anyway, I don't see Wowo using adhominem attacks as you're claiming. While he might not be talking in a manner that's buddy buddy, he's not being mean, just factual. Again, think like a teacher, except he's doing this unapprectated work for free. At the risk of continuing to be hated/wanted dead/almost literally spat upon, I'm gonna compare
Nobody is calling it useless, just inefficient as a long term, and short term investment.
Let's use a different example: Clerics
In the short term, a single classed cleric levels very fast and has useful spell, including kit specials. This tends to dim out however by about lvl 16 as multi and dual class clerics start to catch up with the added bonuses from their other classes.
Is the class useless? Hell no, but mid way through HoW, you'll probably wish your cleric had either some augmentative arcana or more APR and THAC0. By the time you're in HoF, you're likely relegated to the role of divine caster and maybe offtank. Are you useless? No, but the level cap of 30 is hit very soon, and not much is really gained for being beyond 20.
Compare this to a cleric with 7 levels of fighter. He can still hit the cap, but with grandmastery, an extra half attack per round and exceptional strength (this is somewhat fixable by items and DUHM, but doesn't hurt.) At first, he's only a fighter, a somewhat gimped fighter as his ranged weapon of choice is less than desirable, but he functions. Your team might suffer if he plans to be your only source of divine magic. Once you reach your desired dual point, he's also a burden, a Lvl 1 Cleric only saved by his Lvl X fighter health.
Once all this is gained back, it's not long before the dual class outdoes the original as leveling becomes slow and you are at best 1 cleric level behind a single class, but able to reach GM, strike more than once per round naturally and have an extra 5*fighter level extra health for every level less than 10.
You could also play it safe and go for a multiclass cleric/fighter or ranger, removing much of the early game detriment and the dual classed drag period.
In the end, the choice is yours, but in HoF... ah who am I kidding, I'm going to guess that nobody is actually gonna give me a grain of salt unless it's thrown at my face.
How the hell does anyone still come up with that ridiculous conclusion at this point?
C'mon people, apply some logic, worst Paladin kit doesn't equate to useless.
Also I never said no reload is a meh challenge I said no reload is more about metagaming. So any party that can handle everything will work in a no reload game as long as the player knows enough about what to expect.
@Heindrich , @LadyRhian , @Dee, @Metalloman, @bengoshi, @Shandyr, or any other moderators that I can't think of (I just listed six that I consider personal forum friends), could we please just shut my humble little inquisitor-loving thread down now?
I never intended any hostility, vitriol, or provocation to fighting. Rather, it was just meant to be a humble little thread by a humble little arcane (or sometimes divine, or sometimes musical) supporter of the Order of the Most Radiant Heart, with a subtle (or not so subtle) little attempt to establish a foothold for the Order in Icewind Dale, as one of the Order's very, very rare accepted members who practice arcane magic.
My masters and close friends Keldorn, Anomen, and I thank you.