NPC alignments that you disagree with
SharGuidesMyHand
Member Posts: 2,580
Recently, there was a discussion over whether Neera really should be a CG rather than CN alignment - I was in the extreme minority that supported the CG argument. What are some instances in which you feel that another alignment would've been more appropriate for an NPC?
Here's my list:
(please note that the NPC's actual alignment is in parentheses, as a reference for everyone).
Garrick (CN) - This is the one that I probably most disagree with - IMHO, he's clearly NG. According to his bio, he was a member of a bardic troupe, but split with them once he realized that their activities were actually a front for thievery. He also condemns Silke once he realizes what her true intentions are (she will even make a comment about his "altruism"), and he'll condemn you too if you assist her. He also tries to steer Skie away from the ultra sleezy Eldoth.
Coran (CG) - He's a career thief, thrill-seeker, philanderer, and worst of all, a deadbeat dad - IMO, he's the epitome of CN.
Minsc (NG in BG1, CG in BG2) - I can't really see Minsc as being NG in BG1 - he's at least CG, if not CN IMO. His bio states that he's "too willing to indulge his berserker nature," and he'll try to kill your party if you either decline to help him rescue Dynaheir or don't go after her quick enough. His unpredictable nature is somewhat toned down in BG2, and the change to CG alignment is better suited for him IMO.
Alora (CG) - Her voice lines may be CG, but her background as a rabid klepto is more in keeping with CN IMO.
Jaheira (TN) - I know that she's forced to be TN by her class, but I think the consensus opinion of her is that she's really NG at heart, especially in BG2.
Safana (CN) and Viconia (NE) - I've always felt that these two should've switched alignments. Safana is almost Kagain-ish in her obsession with wealth, and always seemed to me like the kind of person who would backstab you at any moment for some quick coin (and indeed, that's basically what she does in BG2 - albeit I'm willing to overlook that due to the generally poor transition between the two games). While Viconia can be cold-hearted, b!tchy, and even a bit creepy (much more so in BG2 than in BG1), I always felt a greater sense of loyalty from her toward my party, and she even tries to defuse the rising tensions between her and Kivan (which Kivan instigates). It seems to me that Safana is always scheming to get-rich-quick, whereas Viconia just wants to be left to herself.
Edwin (LE) - While he's clearly evil, I never understood why he was considered lawful evil. When you first meet him in BG1, he's on a covert mission to murder someone, and in BG2 he's working alongside the Shadow Thieves - these are distinctly non-lawful activities IMO.
Branwen (TN) - Like Jaheira, I'd always felt that she's basically NG at heart, based largely on the backstory of how she ended up turned to stone - although admittedly, that was before IWD:EE gave me a better understanding of what it means to be a priest(ess) of Tempus.
Your thoughts?
Here's my list:
(please note that the NPC's actual alignment is in parentheses, as a reference for everyone).
Garrick (CN) - This is the one that I probably most disagree with - IMHO, he's clearly NG. According to his bio, he was a member of a bardic troupe, but split with them once he realized that their activities were actually a front for thievery. He also condemns Silke once he realizes what her true intentions are (she will even make a comment about his "altruism"), and he'll condemn you too if you assist her. He also tries to steer Skie away from the ultra sleezy Eldoth.
Coran (CG) - He's a career thief, thrill-seeker, philanderer, and worst of all, a deadbeat dad - IMO, he's the epitome of CN.
Minsc (NG in BG1, CG in BG2) - I can't really see Minsc as being NG in BG1 - he's at least CG, if not CN IMO. His bio states that he's "too willing to indulge his berserker nature," and he'll try to kill your party if you either decline to help him rescue Dynaheir or don't go after her quick enough. His unpredictable nature is somewhat toned down in BG2, and the change to CG alignment is better suited for him IMO.
Alora (CG) - Her voice lines may be CG, but her background as a rabid klepto is more in keeping with CN IMO.
Jaheira (TN) - I know that she's forced to be TN by her class, but I think the consensus opinion of her is that she's really NG at heart, especially in BG2.
Safana (CN) and Viconia (NE) - I've always felt that these two should've switched alignments. Safana is almost Kagain-ish in her obsession with wealth, and always seemed to me like the kind of person who would backstab you at any moment for some quick coin (and indeed, that's basically what she does in BG2 - albeit I'm willing to overlook that due to the generally poor transition between the two games). While Viconia can be cold-hearted, b!tchy, and even a bit creepy (much more so in BG2 than in BG1), I always felt a greater sense of loyalty from her toward my party, and she even tries to defuse the rising tensions between her and Kivan (which Kivan instigates). It seems to me that Safana is always scheming to get-rich-quick, whereas Viconia just wants to be left to herself.
Edwin (LE) - While he's clearly evil, I never understood why he was considered lawful evil. When you first meet him in BG1, he's on a covert mission to murder someone, and in BG2 he's working alongside the Shadow Thieves - these are distinctly non-lawful activities IMO.
Branwen (TN) - Like Jaheira, I'd always felt that she's basically NG at heart, based largely on the backstory of how she ended up turned to stone - although admittedly, that was before IWD:EE gave me a better understanding of what it means to be a priest(ess) of Tempus.
Your thoughts?
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Comments
Seems to be little known, but Nalia did change alignment in the game, but only if you summoned her ToB. Originally CG, but when summoned is NG. Which I guess makes sense, since as she develops she wants to be more involved in politics than in traipsing across the country and through dungeons just helping the odd stranger here and there. She probably ends up LG, but some time after the conclusion of ToB.
Edwin - well, he may just be doing his duty by pursuing the witch. He seems to be using the thieves, but maybe he agreed to a contract with Mae'Var (who didn't read the small print that should a bhaalspawn come along threatening to take them down, Edwin reserved the right to switch sides).
Otherwise, I'd say I'm in general agreement. Definitely Jaheira I feel is closer to good.
Cernd (TN) - I'd say the alignment fits him for the most part, but he tends a bit on the lawful side fo the spectrum. It's still not enough to fully change to Lawful Neutral though.
Hexxat (NE) - Even if you consider *all* undead to be unquestionable evil (they're not, Baelnorn liches and Morte as great examples for this), this Chultan Vampire is clearly True Neutral at heart with a streak of evil tendences mixed in. Though I really wished she were more wicked than that.
Kagain has never really felt evil to me either.
Example:Viconia murders a family of farmers, rather mercilessly, but only after they have raped her and buried her alive. A chaotic evil character would have decided to murder the farmers in their sleep before any other interaction, or kidnap the youngest, torture him, and send cut and bloody body parts to the family to watch them suffer. That's the evil to the extreme, being saddistic for no apparent reason, epitomy of chaotic evil.
Hexxat also murders Clara in cold-blood, but for her own survival. If Hexxat comes upon a scared, little child and a sickly grown man, I firmly believe she will choose to drain the man. Because she needs to survive but does not feel the need to be extremely cruel. However, she would feel no remorse after killing the man, that's why she is still evil. A chaotic evil vampire would go for the child at first, because he is more pure, vulnerable and delicious, and would scream and cry better while being scared, and it would cause much more grief to child's family. That's chaotic evil. The Valen mod has Valen as a vampire npc, and there was one unforgettable scene in which she drained the little child that was looking for strong warriors for the Imnesvale quest. Because she is chaotic evil. Hexxat would never do such a thing, unless she was starving and there was no one else around.
Ironically, getting a rep boost actually enables you to save more gold when buying things.
Safana: Firstly, her bio. shows that she pretty much just goes with the flow, no long term planning, just taking advantage of any situation that comes along. Secondly, I don't think she'd stab me in the back for my gold. I think she'd be more likely to sleep with me first and then sneak out with my gold before I wake up (or maybe that's just wishful thinking).
Viconia: When you romance her and get her backstory she clearly shows that she thought long and hard about her life and how to change her situation - hardly chaotic behaviour. As for her being evil, in the context of the game Drow are inherently evil and even if you could say that she's 'reformed' she has certainly retained some very cold-blooded traits.
Kivan, on the other hand, has always struck me as CN rather than CG. I might be a little influenced by the bit of fanon I adhere to about him being a follower of Shevaresh (or something like that), the elven god of revenge. There's this trend among fans and writers alike to allow elves to act really fucking ungood (particukarly in their hatred of certain other races) while still remaining under the roof of CG that I don't like, and Kivan really exhibits traits of that. I feel as Kivan is waaaay to obsessed with his vengeance and hatred to not end up CN (I don't consider "hunts Evil" to be a Good trait on it's own). Maybe he was CG at one point, before his wife was killed. He doesn't really show any traits of it during the games, though. Hatred consumes you, and all that stuff.
About some of the other OP examples:
Kagain is a greedy, self-serving, conscienceless mercenary. He definitely fits LE or LN. Really, the only thing pushing him up towards LN is that he seems to not take particular pleasure in killing stuff, but even then he does seem to view it with disinterest and utter lack of engagement rather than as something bad, so it's still on the edge between E and N.
Edwin - Lawful in the context of alignment does not not mean the opposite of lawless or "follows judicial laws", so what Edwin is up to in the games does does not go against being Lawful Evil (the Shadow Thieves are practically a Lawful Evil organisation themselves, although I am not sure they are classified as such in the books). Everything about Edwin screams LE to me, so I definitely disagree with that.
I think everyone agrees on Jaheira, though. She's definitely one of the biggest misplacements in the history of video game DnD rpgs. Yeah, "neutral prefers good to evil" is a thing, but she really, really, REALLY prefers good. I also agree that Minsc is a lot more CN-ish in BG1, but I don't think he is noticeably more CG than NG. He is in that awkward space within both that makes it hard to tell where he belongs.
I think Minsc in BG1 straddles the line between CN and CG, but is definitely not NG.
I think Viconia should probably be TN, as opposed to CN or NE, since she doesn't strike me as particularly chaotic. But definitely something-neutral. While he's definitely not a nice person, and is willing to commit some evil, she left her home in outrage over evil acts, and the worst thing we know she's done after leaving drow society (a corrupting influence if ever there was one) was to kill a family that your average paladin would probably also have killed. Admittedly, a paladin might have sought out a proper authority to turn them over to instead, but when there's no authority around you can trust, D&D definitely doesn't consider it evil to put evil people to the sword.
Edwin is fine as LE. LE is about working within a system towards self-serving ends, but no one's ever said that system has to be the legal authorities of the land. Notably, Edwin actually *is* serving the legal authorities of his homeland in BG1, and in BG2 he's working with an organized crime syndicate. Both well within the bounds of LE.
Hexxat should probably be LN, if anything. She kills to save her own life, and that's definitely not a good thing, but it's what most people would do if push came to shove. That's basically what neutral is. I buy that maybe she's evil mechanically because, being a vampire, she has evil physically as part of her being, but she sure doesn't act like it.
Sure he's a drunken, greedy, ruthless berserker, but he seems more motivated by riches and glory than pure evil.
He's also been turned on by his companions in the past, so you can't really fault him for his attitude.
I'd say chaotic neutral maybe, I dunno, there's at least some good in him deep down in my opinion...either way one of my favorite npcs.
@TommyKnox777: I don't Korgan's complaints about slavery negate his evilness. He shows absolutely no mercy or compassion or affection for anybody else. Maybe he just finds it distasteful. Not every evil person needs to take absolute delight in the suffering of others. They just have to be particularly selfish. And his dislike for slavery might be personal: maybe he had some bad experiences as a slave once.
I wouldn't consider his dislike for slavery to be evidence of goodness. His great enthusiasm for violence, his insistence that his own interests come first (the only NPC who demands payment for rejoining the party), and his general crudeness strongly suggest evil. I don't think Korgan would go out of his way to help slaves, not if it posed a risk to himself. I think he would just shy away from it, maybe avoiding doing deals with any slavers he came across.
And if he did go on a rampage killing a bunch of slavers, I think he'd spend more time scrounging for gold than helping the slaves break free.
Jaheira: yeah, she's Neutral Good, despite being a Druid.
Kagain: seems more Neutral or Lawful Neutral, not obviously 'Evil'. He's just greedy.
Branwen: always struck me as more Chaotic Good than anything.
Jan: always seemed more Chaotic Good than Neutral.
Those are the ones that stand out for me.
I just took a look at a Let's Play from mynameisnotlilly, and it has Korgan telling Nalia, out of the blue and for no reason, that he absolutely despises her, and he threatens to murder her.
He also warns against giving the street child a large sum of gold, saying she'll wind up dead in an alley carrying that much. In my opinion showing disdain for such a heinous act, should it occur. He surely loves his gold, but doesn't take it from the weak and innocent.
I wish we knew more of his backstory, maybe he's 300 years old has seen a great deal of pain and suffering and has just resigned himself to the fact that the cruel world he lives in is kill or be killed.
As for charging the party? He knows his worth, he's one of the strongest fighters in the region and he knows it. Hey I don't work for free either....
Or maybe I'm reading wayyyy to much into this, I'd love more backstory if there exists any.
Jan is Chaotic Neutral. He also doesn't tell friendly people that he hates them. Nor does he issue random death threats.
Korgan is not above issuing a death threat. He takes glee in violence. And he harasses friendly party members for reason other than that he can. I have difficulty imagining that as Chaotic Neutral behavior. It's a little too evil to be CN.
And as for Korgan and his "empatheticness", just check his interactions with Aerie.
Korgan... he's a mercenary. All he really wants out of life is fighting and gold, and he doesn't care much who he's fighting for or has to kill. He does show a disdain for slavery, but you find often that quite vile people have some group they look down and are convinced they're better than. I'd say he is evil. Maybe more NE than CE.
It should be "Chaotic Neutral".
The last time I spoke with him he said "RRROOARH" that means he sees it the same way. I swear.
Korgan is clearly CE. Anyone into killing for its own sake is evil, and almost certainly CE. He insults anyone he thinks he can safely bully, including allies.
Coran clearly cannot be good, as he has an afair with a married woman. Also, he takes 0 responsibility for his kid/mother of his child. 1st one is EVIL (prudery!), the 2nd issue though seels the deal as a Jerkass CN.
@Jarrakul the funny part, Korgan DOES revel in the suffering he causes, both mental and physical. He is solidly evil.
Edwin being LE makes sense to me, he wants to rule Thay, if not the world, not destroy stuff or get rich quick.
Then again, you are joking, so I must add "What about pedophilles!"
I find Coran a somewhat complicated case, in that his motivations for adventuring are hugely important in assessing his alignment. The womanizing and lack of parental responsibility are clear black marks against him, but he is constantly out risking his life to kill dangerous monsters. If he's doing that for the good of other people, that may well outweigh his non-trivial faults. If he's doing that because it's fun and gets him laid, it doesn't redeem him at all. I'd argue that his dialog strongly implies the latter, so I'd be happiest with him as CN.
Considering he wants to kill wyverns for money, not to help people, I kinda suspect goodness is not a big motivating factor. I think the alignments in BG1 require a substantial grain of salt, as you are given very little background, and may not know why a person may have previously earned an alignment. Admittedly, lvl 1 PCs shouldn't have that much backstory, but you can also nab them at lvl 6, which in AD&D means quite a bit of adventuring experience in normal gaming usually.
In game, we do not see much proof that Kagain requires an evil alignment, other than abandoning his business when things go sour, but we can guess that he probably had a bad reputation anyways as a crooked mercenary company leader, hence not hesitating to drop his business. Lawful Evil can be a double dealer too, they stick to the letter of an agreement, not the spirit.
And yeah, there are definitely cases where cheating might be sufficient for an "evil" label by itself, but I'd argue those are pretty extreme cases. I don't think we really disagree on the whole, though.
Jaheria is not NG even though it appears that that way. From my understanding of druids, Jaheria can swing to NG in BG1 because of the evil of sarevok and bring everything back into balance.