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Help me make the worst possible Sorcerer build

joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
I know there have been plenty of threads about optimizing spell choices for Sorcerers, but what would be the worst possible spell list (for you)? I know my first pick would be Infravision, but I don't even know what my second pick would be. I want to hold off on Find Familiar until after I've fought Nimbul. While it's tempting to adopt the greedy strategy of just picking the most useless spell available whenever I get the chance, I think it's important to plan this out properly. I want to make sure that my spells are not just junk but redundant junk

Comments

  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    You may want to consider an Intelligence score of 8 or lower. This should prevent you from casting spells from scrolls, as well as deny the usage of rods. Needless to say you'd have to modify the character for that with Keeper to make it work. Well, either that or find a bored Mind Flayer. :p
  • kcwisekcwise Member Posts: 2,287
    The cursed Ring of Folly reduces intelligence and wisdom to 3. Such a cursed ring might also explain why a sorcerer would choose the kind of spells you suggest. :) You can find one fairly quickly along the coast in a certain derelict ship.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @Kamigoroshi Doesn't the Machine of Lum the Mad sometimes take an intelligence point away too? And I guess there's the Candlekeep dream demon... I'm just trying to avoid admitting that I don't know how to use Keeper. Maybe a Mind Flayer got to me already.

    @kcwise I think the Ring of Folly Feebleminds you. That would certainly make for a useless sorcerer, but it wouldn't make for a very satisfying gameplay experience.
  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110
    Not necessarily the worst build but how about random spells you get what the magic gives you. The price you pay for not studying properly like a mage hmm I can see the rp potential maybe next restart.
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,428
    Keep getting your familiars killed until you have a CON score of 1. That'll make things interesting.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @skinnydragon If you click "pick for me," is it just totally random? I've never tried it.
  • GreenWyvernGreenWyvern Member Posts: 247
    edited March 2015
    abacus said:

    - Call Wyvern (the key is to cram in as many mediocre summons as possible)

    Hey there, that's not nice...

    Also, if you can, leave a text message instead.
  • skinnydragonskinnydragon Member Posts: 110
    Was thinking of rolling a dice 1=first spell etc or running a random number generator
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @abacus Nice list, I cringed reading it. I think I might throw in all the sequencer/contingency spells. They're normally good, but they depend on the rest of your spells being decent.

    I was kind of thinking of solo, though. If I put a deliberately useless character in a group, he would just get... deliberately used less. One possibility for a solo run would be avoiding any spell that can do damage.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    joluv said:

    @skinnydragon If you click "pick for me," is it just totally random? I've never tried it.

    Nah, I think the pick for me is supposed to be noob friendly.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    abacus said:

    joluv said:

    @skinnydragon If you click "pick for me," is it just totally random? I've never tried it.

    Nah, I think the pick for me is supposed to be noob friendly.
    Edit:
    Just rolled a ToB sorcerer with pick for me. Spells are:

    L1
    Armour
    Chromatic Orb
    Colour Spray
    Identify
    Magic Missile

    L2
    Agannazar's Scorcher
    Blur
    Melf's Acid Arrow
    Mirror Image
    Power Word: Sleep

    L3
    Fireball
    Haste
    Lightning Bolt
    Remove Magic

    L4
    Confusion
    Improved Invisibility
    Spider Spawn
    Stoneskin

    L5
    Breach
    Domination
    Monster Summoning III
    Shadow Door

    L6
    Chain Lightning
    Pierce Magic
    True Sight

    L7
    Prismatic Spray
    Spell Sequencer

    L8
    Improved Mantle

    Actually... not that bad.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @abacus Yeah, those are pretty reasonable choices of straightforward spells. Thanks for checking that.
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    OK, I'll give this a whirl. Let's assume that you are going to play-to-win, rather than do dumb things like abuse spells/items to pointlessly lower your stats, and for argument's sake enabled the console and ctrl-8ed the stats, so our only handicap is going to be spell selection. Obviously, the weakest sorcerer at this point would be one who opted to never level, but we are playing to win, so my only lever is to give you duff spells. We are also playing solo, or else the party beats the game for us.

    I like the idea above that the traditionally abusable sequencers etc. are useless if there are no abusable spells you can put in there, so let's try to make that work. Likewise, with high stats, we can't lean on bad wishes to screw up for us, we just need really bad spells. So...

    (one strategy I rejected was getting lots of spell-removal and save-reduction, as we have no/few offensive spells, but that might re-inforce wand usage, which is likely how we do most damage)

    Level 1
    1 Infravision (a given)
    2 Identify (only saves money)
    3 Chill touch (must enter melee to do poor damage)
    4 Find familiar (5th level now, so extra hp less useful, and familiar vulnerable)
    5 Friends (we have such a high charisma, this will do little)

    Level 2
    1 Strength (we already have more than this will give)
    2 Know alignment
    3 Detect evil
    4 Vocalize (if everything we learn is useless...)
    5 Invisibility (contentious, but will duplicate a lot)

    Level 3
    1 Non-detection
    2 Clairvoyance
    3 Detect Illusion (can be useful, but will duplicate at higher levels)
    4 Invisibility 10' Radius (without a party)
    5 Hold Undead (may be useful!)

    Level 4
    1 Remove Curse (generally, need can be avoided)
    2 Minor Sequencer
    3 Improved invisibility
    4 Farsight (can already scout invisible)
    5 Enchanted Weapon (level 23, we should be past this by now - and melee again?)

    Level 5
    1 Oracle
    2 Shadow door (gain invisibility effect at levels 2/3/4/5 simultaneously)
    3 Protection from electricity (duplicated by enough items and potions, rarely needed)
    4 Phantom blade
    5 Protection from normal weapons (we made it to level 28, what normal weapons?!)

    Level 6
    1 Contingency
    2 Stone to flesh (playing solo, dead before I can use it on myself)
    3 True Sight (we already have the effect)
    4 Mislead (enough invisibility already, but bonus image may be useful)
    5 protection from magical weapons (4 rounds only, at level 30)

    Level 7
    1 Mass Invisibility
    2 Spell Sequencer
    3 Project Image (very limited use with poor spell list)
    4 Control Undead (unlikely to affect any useful undead at this level)
    5 Mantle (only 4 rounds)

    Level 8
    1 Spell trigger
    2 Symbol: Fear (run away! so scary!)
    3 Maze (touch spell, and they are coming back)
    4 Improved mantle (4 rounds)

    Level 9 (help, they are all good, never mind HLA spells taking these slots)
    1 Freedom (cannot cast on self)
    2 Chain Contingency
    3 Energy Drain
    4 Gate (it's a laugh, we don't have protection from evil, and somehow made level 25)

    The heavily-redundant spells here are invisibility and detect-invisibility effects, and some defensive mantles that mostly have a very short duration. This does not look a lot of fun to play - especially if the PC stats are NOT the all 18s I predicted ;)
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @GreenWarlock Thanks, this is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind. The problem with Gate is that Staff of the Magi gives Protection from Evil, so I'd probably replace that pick with Absolute Immunity.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @GreenWarlock: Good choices. I only have five different recommendations:

    -Replace Farsight with Spirit Armor, since Farsight lets you rely entirely on summons (the wand is a good example) for certain battles

    -Make Enchanted Weapon your first 4th level pick, since you can't use any of the weapons, nor can you sell them

    -Replace PFMW with Flesh to Stone, as PFMW is useful late game, and Flesh to Stone is not

    -Replace Maze with Symbol: Death, as the former is more likely to remove an enemy from the battle

    -Replace Gate with Power Word: Kill, because of the HP requirement

    Also, unless we have a ban on clones using items (some consider it an exploit/cheesy/cheating/cheap, though I don't), then we need to get rid of Project Image and replace it with Sphere of Chaos, since clones can use Protection from Magic and Protection from Undead scrolls, plus lesser things like the Ring of the Ram, Horn of Blasting, and Efreeti Bottle. In fact, a Lawful Neutral sorcerer's ferret familiar can smuggle the Rift Device out of the Temple Sewers, and Project Image will let a sorcerer use the Rift Device SIX times per day without using scrolls, or even more, if we have the Ring of Wizardry, Circlet of Netheril, and/or the extra 7th-level spell HLA.

    I would foresee relying heavily on wands and low-level scrolls until the sorcerer access to the 9th-level mage HLAs, namely, Dragon's Breath and Summon Planetar. After that, Charname would probably hoard the higher-level scrolls for the late-game fights.
  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I deliberately chose Maze over Symbol: Death, as it is, at best, a temporary solution. It will remove a single enemy from the fray, for but a short time. It does not actually solve a problem or score XP. Symbol Death will actually kill enemies, and if nothing else can be used for clearing up trash mobs that might otherwise require expending limited resources like wand charges.

    Similarly, I preferred pfmw, together with all the mantles, over Flesh to Stone as, at best, it was a delaying tactic against the inevitable, and had a poor duration. Flesh to Stone will steal our loot if used on the wrong enemy, but again will actually kill things and score xp.

    I could buy into the rest :)
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    Looking at the lists @abacus and @GreenWarlock provided, I'm coming to a conclusion that a sorcerer is so broken that even when you choose relatively "wrong" and "worst" spells, you still get a beast.
  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    Another option is to drop all the protection, armour and mantle spells and load up on touch range spells... trying to drop Vamp, Chill, Ghoul and other Touches with horrendous ThAC0 and no protection.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    @GreenWarlock I think I'm with @semiticgod on the Maze vs. Symbol: Death question. Often a temporary solution is all that is needed, and mobs that are vulnerable to Symbol: Death will also be vulnerable to HLAs that you'll be forced to get not long after that. I might make it the fourth pick instead of the third, though, to reinforce that redundancy.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    The spell selections chosen above are too good. Honestly, I could make a decent adventurer with those.

    Check *this* out:
    1st
    1-Reflect Image (only one image, not worth it against mobs)
    2-Infravision
    3-Chill touch (touch spell)
    4-Grease (useless on its own)
    5-Shocking grasp (touch spell)

    2nd
    1- detect evil (as if you didn't know who was already evil)
    2-know aligment (if only it changed dialogue options...)
    3-vocalize (it ain't bad, but you'll use two or three times throughout the whole game and its sequel)
    4-ghoul touch (touch spell)
    5-knock (take it as your last choice)

    3rd
    1-non-detection (you won't use it in BG, and it won't protect you from True sight in BG2)
    2-Protection from cold (how many winter wolf combats are there in the game?three?)
    3-clairvoyance (it is cool, but won't work indoors and an invisible thief can do the same)
    4-spell thrust (unless you got SCS, it'll be useless in BG1)
    5- (the other spells are actually good in their own way =D)

    4th
    1- Otyluke's sphere (it is tacticaly useful, but only against potential threats.)
    2-Remove curse (Maybe you could try removing Irenicus' curse with that...)
    3-contagion ( allows a saving throw, effects aren't good enough)
    4- minor sequencer (with your lousy spell selection, it won't be much of a boost...)
    5-teleport field (it helps you defensively, but you don't have the spells to back it up offensively)

    5th
    1-oracle (it won't stop dispel 6th level spells, such as project image, mislead etc)
    2-protection from acid (it will help you at certain battles, but they're very few ones)
    3-spell shield (it could have been useful if you had any protections...)
    4-protection from electricity (it has its uses, seems like you'll be running out of useless spells as you progress)
    5- phantom blade (good luck fighting a skeleton warrior in close combat)

    If you've managed to survive soloing with those spells, then you deserve a prize!
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    edited March 2015
    @DJKajuru I think @GreenWarlock is right to include Identify, Friends, and Find Familiar in the first level. You can cast Find Familiar from a scroll, and Identify and Friends just save you money, which will be abundant in a solo run. The lack of invisibility spells in your list could add difficulty, but there are also rings, potions, and a staff for that. A decent adventurer could probably be made with your list too. I think @bengoshi is correct: Sorcerers are unavoidably beasts.
    Post edited by joluv on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @DJKajuru: Some of your spell picks have distinct uses.

    Teleport Field is crazy. It completely wrecks the enemy's targeting and dramatically reduces their ability to hit you. It can even clear up mobs, open up pathways through tight areas that you'd otherwise have to fight through, or teleport an enemy into another room, or behind a wall. You can expect it to cut enemy melee attacks by 50%, and it prevents you from getting boxed in. That's nothing to sneeze at.

    Oracle will reveal thieves. That prevents you from getting backstabbed. And not many enemies rely much on Mislead anyway, and I don't believe there's a single instance of a mage using Project Image in vanilla BG2.

    Spell Shield blocks anti-magic rays and dragon spells. In SCS2, mages love Breach, and Spell Shield blocks it.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    joluv said:

    @DJKajuru I think @GreenWarlock is right to include Identify, Friends, and Find Familiar in the first level. I think @bengoshi is correct: Sorcerers are unavoidably beasts.

    Indeed. However, I must disagree on Identify . Sometimes it is more useful to identify a wand and use it against the enemy rather than casting a low level magic missile. My sorcerer characters usually start with Identify and Blindness, which a are very useful throughout the whole saga.
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