Dwarven Defender VS Barbarian
Arunsun
Member Posts: 1,592
Hey guys
I've been thinking a little bit on these two classes. They are indeed very similar, both being awesome tanks.
I weighted pros and cons during my IT lesson this afternoon (off-topic: that's what IT lessons are made for) and here is what came out:
Both have the same number of APR because both are warriors and neither get GM. But due to their rage, Barbarian still have higher damages etc... Not to mention that if they are to wear DoE, as they can only achieve ** in flails, DDef will really have no counterpart compared to Barbarian
Considering tankiness, I am just reminding you a couple of important changes from BG2 to BG2EE:
Hardiness no longer is cumulative
Of course, DDef defensive stance is not cumulative with hardiness either.
Meaning DDef are better tanks early game, but once hardiness is acquired, they are on par with Barbarian
Defender of Easthaven now is a + 3 weapon, making it a viable pick even in ToB
There is a new, quite OP armor, made from silver dragon scales (from Dorn's quest) that gives what follows:
12AC (Just like Shurupakk, Enkidu, etc...)
15% magic resist
-2 Cha (this is a malus, I made no mistake)
And last but not least: you heal two HP each time you suffer damage (Bye Creeping Doom)
Meaning real tanking characters (Barbarian/ dwarven defender with DoE) are all but unkillable through physical means.
Back to their tankiness:
Prior HLA: Dwarven defender is better
Post HLA: Both are the same, but DDef's defensive stance become useless or less valuable as hardiness nearly does the same with no restriction, and movement speed is rather valuable lategame, meaning they have no real advantage from their class, while Barbarian still have their range, immunity to backstab. However, I still haven't checked whether Barbarians are able to wear the armor. I believe they aren't because I think it is considered as a plate armor. If they can't, this could be a real advantage for DDef. Indeed, when you suffer 80% reduced damage, you will be dealt a maximum of 8 damage per attack. Reducing it to 6 would be a another good reduction. However, I am unsure whether this will be necessary in any fight in the game considering the HP pool both of them have ...
Now, considering the available races:
DDef only has Dwarf
Barbarian has Dwarf and Half Orc
Half Orc is basically trading 7 saving throw for 1 strength and 1 dex. The latter is not really important (1AC difference, pretty pointless as neither of them plan to tank thanks to low AC. Hit roll adjustment on ranged weapon is the same). However, 19 strength is quite a big deal: compared to 18/76-90 which is what we usually have on charname, 19 is 3 more damage and 1 less Thac0. Of course, the 7 saving throw may seem huge, but in the end you have very low saving throw either way (and saving throw are mostly used against CC, which Barbarian can resist through his rage)
I believe I said all I thought of.
Here is a TL;DR:
Defender of Easthaven: must have on both IMHO
DDef: Tankier early game (and lategame as well but it matters less). Overall better pre-HLA
Barbarian: Way more damaging. Overall better post HLA
If you have anything to add, it is your turn to speak
I've been thinking a little bit on these two classes. They are indeed very similar, both being awesome tanks.
I weighted pros and cons during my IT lesson this afternoon (off-topic: that's what IT lessons are made for) and here is what came out:
Both have the same number of APR because both are warriors and neither get GM. But due to their rage, Barbarian still have higher damages etc... Not to mention that if they are to wear DoE, as they can only achieve ** in flails, DDef will really have no counterpart compared to Barbarian
Considering tankiness, I am just reminding you a couple of important changes from BG2 to BG2EE:
Hardiness no longer is cumulative
Of course, DDef defensive stance is not cumulative with hardiness either.
Meaning DDef are better tanks early game, but once hardiness is acquired, they are on par with Barbarian
Defender of Easthaven now is a + 3 weapon, making it a viable pick even in ToB
There is a new, quite OP armor, made from silver dragon scales (from Dorn's quest) that gives what follows:
12AC (Just like Shurupakk, Enkidu, etc...)
15% magic resist
-2 Cha (this is a malus, I made no mistake)
And last but not least: you heal two HP each time you suffer damage (Bye Creeping Doom)
Meaning real tanking characters (Barbarian/ dwarven defender with DoE) are all but unkillable through physical means.
Back to their tankiness:
Prior HLA: Dwarven defender is better
Post HLA: Both are the same, but DDef's defensive stance become useless or less valuable as hardiness nearly does the same with no restriction, and movement speed is rather valuable lategame, meaning they have no real advantage from their class, while Barbarian still have their range, immunity to backstab. However, I still haven't checked whether Barbarians are able to wear the armor. I believe they aren't because I think it is considered as a plate armor. If they can't, this could be a real advantage for DDef. Indeed, when you suffer 80% reduced damage, you will be dealt a maximum of 8 damage per attack. Reducing it to 6 would be a another good reduction. However, I am unsure whether this will be necessary in any fight in the game considering the HP pool both of them have ...
Now, considering the available races:
DDef only has Dwarf
Barbarian has Dwarf and Half Orc
Half Orc is basically trading 7 saving throw for 1 strength and 1 dex. The latter is not really important (1AC difference, pretty pointless as neither of them plan to tank thanks to low AC. Hit roll adjustment on ranged weapon is the same). However, 19 strength is quite a big deal: compared to 18/76-90 which is what we usually have on charname, 19 is 3 more damage and 1 less Thac0. Of course, the 7 saving throw may seem huge, but in the end you have very low saving throw either way (and saving throw are mostly used against CC, which Barbarian can resist through his rage)
I believe I said all I thought of.
Here is a TL;DR:
Defender of Easthaven: must have on both IMHO
DDef: Tankier early game (and lategame as well but it matters less). Overall better pre-HLA
Barbarian: Way more damaging. Overall better post HLA
If you have anything to add, it is your turn to speak
2
Comments
- early game: DD wins thanks to having +3/+4 permanently while the barb needs to use rage, which has a very short duration. For these difficult fights, the DD could use potions also.
- late game: small advantage to the DD. Both class can achieve very high strength using belt + hell trial. the DD will be able to use all of his HLA for offensive puprose (GWW, CS) while the Barb will have to split them with hardiness.
Defensively (physical):
- early game : clear advantage to the DD (stance, ability to use all armors)
- late game : tie (small advantage to the DD but not significant IMO)
Defensively (magic):
- early game : clear advantage for the barb thanks to rage
- late game : Small advantage to the barb. The DD will have anyway have very negative saves.
Overall my preference would go for the dwarven defender as the barbarian is not really tanky before HLA levels. Post HLA, both class are very similar.
Between dwarf and half orcs, the win goes to the dwarf in both case. The extra STR from the orc is good but is not a factor in BG2 (tome of strength) while the extra saves if a very nice feat for the whole game.
If you have 18 natural strength, the 21 strength belt and after hell trial you get 23, it is a bug. And the difference between 22 and 25 strength is clear: 3 THAC0, 4 damage
By the way, Barbarian can use HLA for offensive purpose as well. They both get 20 of them, and no more than 3-4 hardiness are needed (more over because it is no longer cumulative).
Hardiness lasts like 2turn in the end of the game and is of course undispelable, 3 of them are more than enough to deal with any fight. Ok let's say 5. That's still 15 GWW/CS
DDs also can wear heavier armour.
Barb's have better speed
Rage is good if you can finish the fight before it wears off.
I am playing both in IWD atm, and both rely on different tactics to survive. I tend to flank with the Barb, and Argo with the DD. If I attempt to tank with Barb, he generally gets his ass handed to him due to his low AC.
And armors are not really what either rely on to survive, in ToB at least. I do totally agree that DDef dominates Barbarian early game, but I would say that Barbarian gets better lategame
A Barbarian will get 20% base + 20% DoE + 40% Hardiness = 80%
A Dwarven Defender will get 20% base + 20% DoE + 50% Defensive Stance = 90%
Which means the DD is twice as much tanky as the Barbarian, it's not even close.
If you take a hit for let's say 50 damage, the Barbarian will take 10 damage while the DD will only take 5 damage. Which means the DD has double the EHP.
Plus, you can simulate the Str bonus with Crom Fayer anyway, IMO the DD is superior in everything except movement speed, which I agree is a huge bonus for the Barbarian.
Evil barbarian with blackrazor/DoE and human flesh armor is a pretty awesome superlate melee.
Sendai teleporting from platform to platform. The time you need to get to her, she will teleport somewhere else
Abazigal knocking you back: you will need an awful longtime to get back to him
And as I said, DDef is tanky to physical damage. Lategame you tend to be dealt quite a lot of on-hit magical damage as well as spell damage. And basically, the longer you need to reach your enemy, the more free damage will he land on you. Movespeed is a very, very huge point lategame.
By the way, you said you could use Crom Faeyr to get the STR bonus. That's true indeed. But that also force you to use Crom Faeyr and DoE and both are quite low damage. Barbarian basically have the same STR without Crom Faeyr, meaning he can wieild any heavily-damaging weapon (FoA, Club of Detonation, angurvadal, etc...) along with his DoE. He may even wieild Foebane. The HP from the on hit Larloch Minor Drain make him a lot more tanky, without giving up any offensive power.
One is all about absorbing damage while the other is all about dealing punishment. The Barbarian trades offensive power (and more hitpoints) for lower AC (armor restriction). The Dwarven Defender trades damage resistance for less mobility and offensive power.
I wouldn't choose between them - I'd put both in the same party and laugh as monsters fumble around trying to kill my DD and get slaughtered as the Barbarian flanks them.
Edit: hell, you could even make the Barbarian a Dwarf as well and roleplay them as siblings: one disciplined, the other reckless. They bicker and argue all the time but at the end of the day, survive together. Because their fighting styles are complimentary. That even brought a tear into my eye.
hell trial cumulated with belts maybe a bug (it don't see how you can be so affirmative about that), but it was in the game (not sure in the EE)
Anyway between +3 THACO/+4 DAM for 5 round and +2 THACO/+2 DAM forever, i personally prefer the latter. In any case it is not a big deal when you are doing 25+ damage per hit. Offense is not really a deciding factor between this 2 class IMO.
It's more a matter of going for a physical tank (DD) or Mage tank (Barb).
We could also add the dwarven berserker the the debate.
It has better offense that both (GM), better protection VS magic (better rage) but is much worse against physical damage.
Does it mean Sarevok can cure him with Deathbringer Assault?
And even if it is not a bug it does not fit roleplay-wise. Wearing a STR belt and further boost your STR with blackrazor or lvl 25 priest is logical. But the STR you get from hell trials is supposed to be STR linked to your character. Your character has, let s say, an innate 19STR. After hell trials his STR is increased by 2 points. He s got 21 innate STR now. You can boost it further with some gear. That s logical.
By the way, Barbarian can go through hell trials as well.
Orc Barbarian would thus get 21STR, 25 during rage, while DDef would stuck with 21 STR.
@rede9 : 90% is the top, reached with Level 20+ DDef using Defender of Easthaven with defensive stance active.
Unless Shadowdancer's shadow form cumulates with hardiness but I don t think it is possible.
Movement speed reduction isn't a problem when you can switch to throwing axes. Also knowing when to use stance is part of the tactics of the class.
You might switch to throwing axes. Great, then what use are you to your party if you are a backline tank? When an enemy switch focus from your DDef to your backline, it is not a couple of Klogarath hit that will change his mind. A barbarian would still be ten times as heavily-damaging, focus or not focused.
Even when soloing, an enemy can simply walk away from you and you ll be crumbling to reach him or sending him some low damage axes. Great. Not that effective.
You really seem stuck on how much more powerful the barb is offensively.
If you use rage + belt you will reach 25 in strength (btw, i don't see why rage should be cumulative with the belt if you think hell trial should not) VS 22 for the DD.
That's +2 damage for 5 rounds (+4 from str-2 from pips). At best that is marginally better.
Is there something i am missing ?
- Barbarian gets +2 damage for 5 rounds.
Defense:
- Dwarven Defender gets +10% physical resistance and gets to wear plate armor.
Speed:
- Barbarian is fast. The Dwarven Defender is slow.
That's the breakdown, really. I prefer the dwarven defender, personally. But both are good choices.
Dwarven Defenders have nothing on rodents.
Barbarian has a HUGE weapon diversity while dwarf is limited to axes and hammers (yeah ok you can have some pips in other weapon as well, but then barbarian would do 4 more damages per attack, which is hardly neglectable)
+ barbarian speed and paws of the cheetah allows him to hit a fleeing target while it s running. That's a lot of additionnal hit as well. Meanwhile the DDef can hardly follow it.
To answer your question about hell trial and rage:
Hell trial is a permanent boost while rage is a temporary one. But it s not like Barbarian needed STR belt either
Orc: 19 STR
Hell trials brings it to 21
Rage brings it to 25
@Grum AC is not relevant, at least in ToB, unless you get it really low (-25 at least). So the plate armor argument is not such a great one. Early game I admit dwarven defenders are better (though not so true if you kill Drizzt in BG1EE as barbarian may wieild his armor). The additionnal physical resistance might look big, but it really is an overkill (you will not get a barbarian wielding Foebane down even if he takes 6 damage per autoattack rather than 3)
@FinneousPJ said everything else, though rage immunities are +/- compensating shorty save throw bonuses
Barbarian with human flesh armor, blackrazor or the life draining bastard sword is pure win. Gram sword of grief +5 also nice to have and the ravager halberd is awesome as well. Barbarian easily wins in weapons category.
Now can anyone say 100% sure: does DD defensive stance stack with hardiness or not?
For me the 2 favourite melees are the barbarian and the inquisitor. Blackguard is prolly super nice as well.
Does the blackguard have spellcasting the paladins get?
Silver Dragon Armor:
12 AC
15% magic resist
-2CHA (who cares?)
Everytime you are dealt damage, you are healed by two HP
Yes priest spells start at level 9 like paladin.