Grand Master of Darts?
Nifft
Member Posts: 1,065
I'm curious if anyone has used deep munchkin powers to make a Darts-based build.
Specific things I'm curious about:
- Spell Synergy. Can Darts mastery apply to any spells, like Minute Meteors? ... or perhaps Energy Blades?
- A good Magic Weapon. It seems like there are better returning Daggers and Axes than Darts, which don't seem to go up to +5. What am I missing?
- Multi-Classing. Thieves, Druids and Wizards can all use Darts. What's the best level to jump away from being a Fighter?
Specific things I'm curious about:
- Spell Synergy. Can Darts mastery apply to any spells, like Minute Meteors? ... or perhaps Energy Blades?
- A good Magic Weapon. It seems like there are better returning Daggers and Axes than Darts, which don't seem to go up to +5. What am I missing?
- Multi-Classing. Thieves, Druids and Wizards can all use Darts. What's the best level to jump away from being a Fighter?
0
Comments
- I think Darts are pretty good, but Axes are definitely better and so are Daggers, but Darts' high APR is crucial in early-game.
- If you're planning dual-classing, then 8 or 13.
(Everything on this post is from a solo-only player's perspective.)
Rather than dual-classing from a Fighter, he was a single-class Assassin. He mainly used Darts because the Assassin kit's main benefit is Poison Weapon, and the high APR of darts let him poison more enemies more times per round. We're not primarily going for high missile damage per hit, the objective is to get the poison into the enemy quickly and let the poison do the work (while you change target to the next enemy) ... and the Crimson Dart +3 is a brilliant weapon for this guy.
(Note: of course an Assassin also eventually gets enhanced back-stab, and my Assassin one-shotted some enemies with spectacular back-stabs ... but overall, he did far more damage with his ranged poison than by sneaking around for a back-stab.)
I've used a lot of darts and found them to be quite excellent. Their damage isn't necessarily the highest, but they are much, much better at disrupting spells than most weapons, especially if you use a few Darts of Stunning or Darts of Wounding for problem encounters. A failed save against a Dart of Stunning is a death sentence for almost any enemy, and a failed save against a Dart of Wounding will disable a spellcaster for three rounds. Even for normal darts, however, they tear through Stoneskins very quickly, and usually the hardest enemies are the ones who need Stoneskins taken down.
I understand that EE adopted a few things from SCS2. Maybe buffing the weapon immunity spells was one of them.
If I were to do it again, I would probably dual-class. Thinking of a human fighter -> druid, as you can hit 6/10 in the first game, and actually achieve grand mastery to take down Sarevok. Another option is 7/9, where you get the extra half attack, probably better in the long run, although the difference between 4 and 4 1/2 attacks/round is minimal - either way you need haste to get up to 5.
Developing a second or support strategy for the second game, going in with a high proficiency in darts, is probably the way to enjoy the game best, although there is definitely a satisfaction comes from taking a halfling flinger fighter all the way the end, just because you can!
Other weapons - in BG1ee, I often used Shortbow (ending with the Eagle Bow +2) rather than Darts (especially when I'd used up all my poison for the day), and for back-stabbing (or when otherwise forced into melee) I used Short Swords (with Single-Weapon Style). In BG2ee:SoA, I used the Tuigan Bow +1 quite often (same APR as Darts, with greater missile damage) when its lower enchantment wouldn't cost hits, used the Crimson Dart +3 when arrows couldn't hit, and sometimes threw the Firetooth +3 dagger (e.g. when fire damage was more useful than poison), while for back-stabbing (and other melee if forced) I built up proficiency in a wide variety of weapons but mostly used a Staff of Striking +3 (with Two-Handed Weapon Style) except when some other weapon had a bonus effect which was situationally relevant. In BG2:ToB, I mostly used the Crimson Dart +3, but switched to the Gesen Bow +4 whenever +3 was insufficient enchantment to hit, and for occasional back-stabbing mostly used the Staff of the Ram +6 (hey, wow, a septuple-damage critical hit striking for around 500 damage will chunk anything!), but normally (i.e. when not in the middle of a back-stab attempt) equipped a heavy shield (under UAI) for better protection. I reckon he yielded a pretty good performance throughout the series, but especially in BG1ee (where he was gaining around 24-25% of kills and XP). In BG2ee, like other primarily-ranged characters, his relative effectiveness declined a little as the game progressed (17-18% of kills and XP in SoA, around 15% in ToB) - but hey, that's still quite a lot of damage considering that he was my Thief, not a dedicated warrior. Well, "I have detailed files"
Careful planning of thieving-skill development is particularly important for an Assassin, since he earns new skill points more slowly than other Thieves. In BG1ee, you may want to take along another Thief; I built up my protagonist's stealth (for scouting and occasional back-stab attempts) and trap-setting (to be ready for use in BG2ee rather than using it much in BG1ee), whilst mostly leaving locks and trap-finding to a colleague. In early BG2ee, there are various items (rings, etc.) which boost thieving skills, so don't be afraid to rely on these in the early stages to improve partially-completed skills, so that you can invest skill points into other thieving skills (and thereby grow out of needing another Thief). I found it wasn't until early-ToB (when I scored an extra DEX point from the DoMT in WK, giving him natural 21 DEX) that I fully perfected some skills and could permanently retire the skill-boosting rings; he ended the game with unbuffed Thief skills of OL100, FT100, PP145, MS145, HS140, DI100, ST100.
In BG1ee and early-BG2ee:SoA, wear Shadowmaster's Armor +3. In later-BG2ee:SoA, wear Shadow Dragon Scale or (if Evil, as my guy was) Human Flesh +5. In BG2ee:ToB, wear White Dragon Scale or (if Evil) Human Flesh +5.
My Assassin had natural 18 CON (after a Tome in BG1ee), so he could (and did) always wear the Claw of Kazgaroth from mid-BG1ee to end-BG2ee:ToB without loss of HP. Excellent item! Note that "shorty saves" are calculated according to natural CON, not penalised by wearing the Claw,
p.s. What were your stats going into BG2 as well as what NPCs did you go with? Just curious.
I rotated through various companions in both games to do their personal quests, but my "permanent teams" were:
BG1ee - Viconia, Montaron, Tiax, Xzar & Edwin
BG2ee - Korgan, Cernd, Haer'Dalis, Viconia & Edwin
Yes, we are playing a godling, but I prefer to earn those bonuses myself by playing through BGEE rather than just Toming Up at the start of BG2EE. As with all things single-player though, that is purely a matter of choice - what works for you? My conscience would be cleaner if the boosts stayed within mortal stats (spreading my choices accordingly) but I don't keeper stats/classes in the first place, so that's not much of a data point! Conversely, I remember duping the Tomes with save/export when I was much younger, and entering BG2 (pre-EE) with an all 25-s paladin. (My original plan was to actually import/replay repeatedly to reach the Tomes bonus, until the first export/import showed I kept my kit, and could save a lot of time!)
However, my Assassin started BG1ee with 17 STR (max for halfling), then boosted it to 18 with the Tome, then wore a STR belt for much of BG2ee:SoA, then boosted STR to 20 by taking the Evil option in Hell (he was already Evil, so this required no change of alignment) at the end of BG2ee:SoA (thereby no longer needing a STR belt), and finally (since I had plenty of STR belts for others) he took the STR point at the MoLtM in WK (early in BG2ee:ToB), so he ended up with natural 21 STR. Thus he wasn't really suffering from "low strength", in spite of being a halfling!
By ToB, he could land a back-stab fairly reliably. Key enemies are mostly immune to back-stab in ToB, but nevertheless back-stab was sometimes useful for quickly disposing of a minion. In SoA, when the character wasn't yet fully-developed, back-stab was less reliable, but nevertheless I got a few good ones in. In BG1ee, when the character had rubbish THAC0 and lower STR and no enhanced multiplier, I hardly found back-stab useful at all (whereas his poison was devastating).
Seriously, though, you're usually wasting your time positioning your Assassin for a back-stab, unless it's the first blow of an encounter (i.e. when you've got plenty of time to sneak into position because the combat hasn't yet started). As soon as combat is underway, your Assassin is better off standing back from the melee and rapidly peppering the enemies with ranged poison - this is good against almost anyone, but especially good for disrupting enemy casters. Most battles, I didn't even try for a back-stab at all, I just opened up with ranged poison from the start.
If you want to make heavy use of back-stabbing throughout the game, then what you want is either a Stalker (Ranger kit) or a Fighter/Thief, not an Assassin. Striking with a warrior's THAC0 makes a back-stab much more likely to hit (especially in SoA), which more than makes up for a lower back-stab multiplier.
I wouldn't go quite so far as to advise that you entirely forget about back-stabbing with an Assassin, but I'm in no doubt at all that Poison Weapon (at range) is the key ability which makes the Assassin kit powerful.
So far things have been quite well. I snagged the crimson dart earlier and it's been a different experience concentrating on being a ranged fighter. But I like it! The class feels more like a team player as oppose to the one man wrecking crew I tried to play before in past runs. You are right though poison is extremely effective. Now you stated you didn't backstab that much. I'm actually agreeing with you. I've found it OVERALL more effective to open up with a poison dart throw without having to worry about running away like a little sissy after the initial backstab. Anyways just wanted to give you a quick update. Cheers.
In 2nd edition, darts and throwing knives got a full extra attack per 1/2 bonus apr.
Suffered no close range penalties (those only affected bows/crossbows)
This means your base attacks with darts at grandmaster was 7 attacks per round before you included Speed enchantment or haste bonuses.
And all hurled weapons got full strength bonus.