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Korgan is the most powerful NPC

RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Seriously.
He has high HP, fighter THAC0/attacks, op shorty saves, berserker rage, good stats.
This means with the appropriate gear he can easily tank even SCSII mages and beholders with utter ease to the point they can do nothing at all against him, and all that while unbuffed unlike other characters.
Ever since I found out about the glory of Korgan I pretty much just Imp Haste him and watch him solo mages considering my party does not have required saves to 100% negate everything and enemies in BG2 are always ridiculously overleved to the point they easily dispel your party of 6, plus you don't even have to bother with spell removals and the like.
Even Beholders can only use inflict wounds ray on him, and even that is cut by half with the Belf of Inertial Barrier.
Afraid of the Sequencers with 3x Flame Arrow SCSII loves giving their mages and Elder Orbs? Just get the Shield of Reflection.
The only things he can't tank alone are the super few enemies that hit outrageously hard like Dragons... now if only he was a dwarven defender, oh boy...
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Comments

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    If he was a Dwarven Defender, he wouldn't be a Berserker... So, he would lost half his glory.

    But, yeah. I agree Korgan is one the strongest NPCs in BG, on pair with Viconia, Edwin and Sarevok.
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    Well, as a dwarven defender he would be able to tank everything in game including heavy phys hitters, besides demiliches spamming imprisonment.
    Berserker rage is mostly nice for imprisionment immunity only since later you get enough saves to negate anything that allows a save. And for level draining vamps there are copious amounts of Undead Protection scrolls in game.
  • blackchimesblackchimes Member Posts: 323
    Don't saves follow the usual DnD rules, that is a roll of 1 is always a failure?
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    Not on Baldur's Gate and AD&D.
    That's more of a 3rd edition+ feature.
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    I think that a roll of 1 in a d20 is a failure on saving throws. When you roll your saving throws in AD&D 2E you have to roll a number higher than your save, right? If your save vs breath is -4, you have to roll higher than this in a d20. But I think that a 1 is still a failure, even if you have negative values.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    RedWizard said:

    now if only he was a dwarven defender, oh boy...

    EEKeeper can be your friend here. Recruit him, set him back to level 1, change his class/kit to Dwarven Defender, then level him up again.

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    Mathsorcerer said:

    RedWizard said:

    now if only he was a dwarven defender, oh boy...

    EEKeeper can be your friend here. Recruit him, set him back to level 1, change his class/kit to Dwarven Defender, then level him up again.

    How do I set a character to level 1 in EE Keeper? Is there a button that I can just push and reset the caracter, or do I have to do it manually?
  • dockaboomskidockaboomski Member Posts: 440
    Manually. There's a section that says Level and then has three boxes that say your level, so set them to 1 0 0.
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    edited July 2015
    But I'll have also to adjust HP, proficiencies, Thac0, saving throws and innate abillities, right? Or does everything sets likes Lv 1 automatically?
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    No, you would have to reset everything unless you take the shortcut of merely resetting his kit to "dwarven defender" then waiting for him to level up. The class-based abilities should retroactively apply but I would have to double-check on that.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    @Mathsorcerer class-based abilities are gained when you get a level, so you will have to add them via EEKeeper. Same thing for physkcal resistances
  • SmilingSwordSmilingSword Member Posts: 827
    edited July 2015
    I'll see your Korgan and raise you a Haer'Dalis.

    Sure Korgan is strong, but he is just a berserker. Edwin or Haer'Dalis are both far more versatile characters. Both deal more damage than Korgan and with the right buffs and spell defenses can tank just as well as him, if not better. For SoA I think even Keldorn is a better pick than Korgan, his mad dispel plus the early pick up of Carsomyr make him a much stronger NPC for most of the game.
    Post edited by SmilingSword on
  • xscott71xxscott71x Member Posts: 63
    SmilingSword said:

    I'll see your Korgan and raise you a Haer'Dalis.

    Sure Korgan is strong, but he is just a berserker. Edwin or Haer'Dalis are both far more versatile characters. Both deal more damage than Korgan and with the right buffs and spell defenses can tank just as well as him, if not better. For SoA I think even Keldorn is a better pick than Korgan, his mad dispel plus the early pick up of Carsomyr make him a much stronger NPC for most of the game.

    Exactly. I'm not sure how well Korgan would fare against a few hastened Celestials and Mody's Swords
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    Edwin and Haer'Dalis both need buffs to be successful, easily dispelled by any SCS mage, including liches and some other casters which are always ridiculously overleveled compared to you assuming you have a party of 6.
    They also need to survive enough time to dispel the thousand of prebuffs enemies in SCSII start with: liches in SCSII for example usually start prebuffed with protection from fire, cold & magic energy, triggers/contingencies with Prot from magic weapons, improved invis, SI: Abjuration & Illusion. Also, because most tough mages are ALWAYS level 18+ and appear as soon as chapter 2 quests, they have an easy time dispelling everything you got while you have a hard as hell time dispeling them in enough time.
    Edwin would need a pretty high level to achieve the best damaging combos and such, usually when you get out of Underdark and most of SoA is already over.
    Keldorn with Carsomyr can be pretty powerful, yes, but he also suffers from crappy saving throws, and carsomyr or Inquisitor dispel won't do anything against Prot from Magic Weapons and SI: Abjuration.
    Korgan meanwhile can merely just stand there tanking the mage/lich until the protections wear off with no danger at all and without the need to buff.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    RedWizard said:

    Edwin and Haer'Dalis both need buffs to be successful, easily dispelled by any SCS mage, including liches and some other casters which are always ridiculously overleveled compared to you assuming you have a party of 6.

    Every round an SCS mage spends debuffing your mages is a round that SCS mage isn't killing you with a nastier spell. Like Dragon's Breath. Or Horrid Wilting. Also, Spell Shield, Minor Spell Deflection, and Spell Immunity are low-level spells that will keep your mages safe from debuffing. SCS mages won't be taking down your mage's defenses unless you let them.
    RedWizard said:


    They also need to survive enough time to dispel the thousand of prebuffs enemies in SCSII start with: liches in SCSII for example usually start prebuffed with protection from fire, cold & magic energy, triggers/contingencies with Prot from magic weapons, improved invis, SI: Abjuration & Illusion.

    I fail to see why this speaks to the strength of Korgan, since mages, but not Korgan, can break down those buffs. If you have multiple mages in the party, like Edwin, you can debuff an SCS mage in a single round. In fact, in the example you give, you can take down PFMW and all the elemental immunities with two or three spells: one or two Spell Thrusts, and Breach. Spell Thrust removes SI: Divination and SI: Abjuration, and without SI:Abj, Breach will remove everything else but invisibility. You only need to be level 9 to debuff the mage you described.
    RedWizard said:

    Also, because most tough mages are ALWAYS level 18+ and appear as soon as chapter 2 quests, they have an easy time dispelling everything you got while you have a hard as hell time dispeling them in enough time.
    Edwin would need a pretty high level to achieve the best damaging combos and such, usually when you get out of Underdark and most of SoA is already over.

    SI: Abjuration will protect you from enemy Remove Magic spells. If you're afraid the enemy will take down SI: Abj, that's what Spell Shield and Minor Spell Deflection are for. If you want to dispel an enemy mage's buffs, don't use Remove Magic. Use Breach.
    RedWizard said:


    Korgan meanwhile can merely just stand there tanking the mage/lich until the protections wear off with no danger at all and without the need to buff.

    Korgan's immunities will protect him from disablers, but disablers aren't the only thing SCS mages are going to throw out. They also use Skull Trap, Sunfire, Cone of Cold, Horrid Wilting, and summoning spells including Summon Fallen Planetar. Korgan has good HP and saving throws, and he can get some resistances with items, so he can tough out some pretty nasty spells. But it's worth pointing out that SCS mages re-cast PFMW as well as Stoneskin, and plenty will also use Teleport Field. So how long does Korgan have to wait before he can begin dealing damage to a mage?

    PFMW will restrict Korgan to normal weapons, which means no on-hit effects. Stoneskin will block about 10 attacks, which Korgan, assuming he's at level 13+ and dual-wielding an axe with the Shadow Thief Dagger for 5 APR, will take two rounds to remove. Another casting of Stoneskin, and a Contingency, and Korgan is waiting four rounds. One PFMW spell via Chain Contingency, Korgan is waiting eight rounds. Another PFMW spell, cast normally, bumps that up to 12 rounds. Another PFMW from a Spell Trigger (also terribly common among SCS mages) makes that 16 rounds. I'm quite familiar with SCS, and this is in fact what you could expect from a mid- to high-level SCS mage. And if they use Improved Mantle instead of PFMW, you might lose another 2 or more rounds--Korgan won't have proficiencies in any +5 weapons.

    The net result? The mage gets over a dozen spells to kill Korgan, regardless of how you handle Korgan. A mage NPC, if properly handled, might render a mage vulnerable, either by debuffing him or her, or by forcing the mage to re-cast limited buffs, in two to five rounds at worst. Also, a mage NPC can maintain non-dispellable immunity to spell damage as well as disablers; Korgan only gains immunity to the latter.

    Korgan can do fine against enemy mages. But don't underestimate mage NPCs--Edwin, Imoen, Nalia, Jan, and Aerie are very good at taking down enemy mages. And they don't have to be at very high levels to do so--the best debuffers appear at level 12: Pierce Magic, Breach, Secret Word, and Spell Thrust. Even Ruby Ray of Reversal isn't necessary--few enemy mages use Spell Trap, and SI: Abjuration doesn't block Pierce Magic in SCS.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Not to diminish Korgan's brute force , but his bloodlust and lack of compassion make him the least heroic dwarf in the whole game (he'd be a quite interesting villain, though)
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Grum: I've heard the arguments about Korgan actually being Chaotic Neutral, and I found them unconvincing.

    That banter, however, is another thing entirely. I've never heard it before, but it sure as hell doesn't sound like Chaotic Evil.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    I think the key word here is "unbuffed". I can't really count that as being the "most powerful". Its like saying if you ignore not just buffs, but all sorts of spells, Edwin is the weakest character in the game. We all know that is not true.

    To take it further, when naked and unarmed Rasaad is the most powerful character in the entire game.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    @semiticgod

    To go along with that...the things he says is a front to look tough in front of the other characters. Proof you say? I have proof indeed!

    I'm not going to type the entire thing out again...but there is a banter with Valgyar where he says that the two of them are not too different, because they both killed their own families. Valgyar asks why Korgan did, and Korgan responded by saying that he killed his three brothers when his father died because the inheritance was too small to share. He then continues to egg Valgyar on, enjoying his horror.

    Here's the thing. Korgan's father died when he was five years old. I trust Korgan was telling the truth there because...come on. That is him opening up. The only information we ever get about Korgan besides his rough, gruff and violent exterior is where he is with Mazzy. Which includes banters such as Korgan sharing some poetry and after softening up giving Mazzy a shoulder rub (which ends the banter, meaning that it went no further than that). Given this, I trust his 'private' banter with mazzy.

    My point in this? In all of the other banters, Korgan intentionally plays up an image of being a Chaotic Evil sunofabtch. But deep down inside he is just a deeply hurt, pained dwarf who copes in the wrong way.

    To me, Korgan should be Chaotic Evil without Mazzy, because she is the only person who can get his guard down, convince him and inspire him to be more than he currently is. Without her, he will indeed revel in bloodshed, insult everyone, and take part in the most horrific of slaughters (ie: evil alignment). Because that is his image and his way of coping.
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520
    Grum said:

    To me, Korgan should be Chaotic Evil without Mazzy, because she is the only person who can get his guard down, convince him and inspire him to be more than he currently is. Without her, he will indeed revel in bloodshed, insult everyone, and take part in the most horrific of slaughters (ie: evil alignment). Because that is his image and his way of coping.

    He should be chaotic evil even with Mazzy, because even chaotic evil characters have that one person or moral or faith that can get under their skin like nothing else. Korgan going all soft on Mazzy doesn't take away his evil backstabbing and revelry in chaos.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Nonnahswriter said:

    Grum said:

    To me, Korgan should be Chaotic Evil without Mazzy, because she is the only person who can get his guard down, convince him and inspire him to be more than he currently is. Without her, he will indeed revel in bloodshed, insult everyone, and take part in the most horrific of slaughters (ie: evil alignment). Because that is his image and his way of coping.

    He should be chaotic evil even with Mazzy, because even chaotic evil characters have that one person or moral or faith that can get under their skin like nothing else. Korgan going all soft on Mazzy doesn't take away his evil backstabbing and revelry in chaos.
    It's the end of it, where she convinces him to at least try to turn his anger towards appropriate targets. What I'd really like to see is this:

    That banter turns him Chaotic Neutral. But if Mazzy leaves the party or dies, he turns back to being Chaotic Evil. Which shows the positive influence that she has on him (ie: he can stick around with good parties as long as she is around), but when she is gone he falls back into his old ways.

  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,307
    DJKajuru said:

    Not to diminish Korgan's brute force , but his bloodlust and lack of compassion make him the least heroic dwarf in the whole game (he'd be a quite interesting villain, though)

    Unger Hilldark won't be starring in any ballads!
  • JomberwigJomberwig Member Posts: 8
    Korgan is good and there are some nice axes early but I've had him fail the odd saving throw (i.e. Korgan dust). Not to debate wizzy vs fighter, I would go with Edwin as comparatively strongest npc, he has too many spells...
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