Rangers discussion
elminster
Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
This discussion was created from comments split from: Ranger -> Cleric Questions.
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Yap.. definitely a good example of a Ranger.. Martin, raised by elves in childhood. Knows good the way of forest etc. excellent marksman, decent sword figter.
I see Wulfgar on the contrarry as a pure barbarian.
Read the books guys... Wulfgar came from a tribe of tundra. But clearly barbarians... tall, grumpy kind of a primitive barbaric wariors. Tough, taller than humans in ten-towns and more agressive. Organized by traditions, clans, weird code of honor.. knowing only personal strength... hunting deers, karibu or polar beasts. But clearly barbarians. Identified many times as barbarians self called barbarinas and so on.
When Wulfgar came back to tribe, or home to his clan from 5 year kind of a inprisonment by dwarves..
he tried a traditional game there. Hitting and splitting a wooden keg. He used a very non-standart weapon and it was a magical hammer (returning to wielder) made by Bruenor. He was only one in a swarm of surprised Axe-throwing barbarians and won the game (for sure
Before this all ... while captured by dwarfs he was using some kind of spear or standart with flag or smtg.
So no rangers around Wulfgar (exept discutable Drizzt profession) only barbarians.
His returning hammer was a highly specialized/magical weapon very rare/unigue in fact non existing outside dwarven caves in normal circumstances.
Ranger-wood hunter-protector of borders(maybe)-hunting wild beasts/bandits
Try to hunt dear with axe, hammer.
Seriously these things can happen in books, RPG games, but that is all I think.
In my country bow was used by hunters until 14/15 century, crossbow until 16/17 (and maybe a little later) slowly replaced by powder based wepons, rifles.
Sling was clerly used by hunters, same as a soldier weapon. (At least Bible said it was a crit shot by David
So feel free to discus Grand mastery in ranger hands, for somehow logical (hunter) weapons.
Thats my view of a ranger... like man skilled in nature, originally much more a hunter (move silent, hide, remain hidden why waiting for prey or tracking beast silently) than a pure warior.
Like duke from Cydee Martin-in Feist books, Aragorn in Tolkien trilogy, or old English folk legend of Sherwood hunter Robin (Locksley) Hood.
In this association Ranger trying to hunt anything but a domestic horse/cow with his hammer will quickly die starving.
Axe was clearly used as throwing weapon, hatchet by vikings I think, Francisca by Franks. But it was more a wepon for war or killing (sort of a competition weapon also for vikings) on very discutable distance... hardly for hunting.
I agree with smtg. like archer/marksman.. it makes sense, someone who is really good with dat weapon, warrior or hunter - u can consider both in role playing (why not GM for slings for shorties or halflings only)
Ranger with GM in Axe/Hammer is completely weird and UFO idea.
There is not even a little bit of sense for grandmastery for thrown wepons outside the Figher class (obviously carrying such a weapons to war).
Ehm... Drizzt helped killed Ice dragon to Wulfgar in one of Salvatore´s book, shooting from his black bow... hitting dragons head even covered by (his) magic darkness spell. In another book, borowed Thaumaril from Wulfgar´s girlfriend.. shooting another dragon... but not 100 percent sure in this point. Anyway... Drizzt was for sure strongly associated even with bows. I also remember 1 sentence.. smtg. like ´Drizzt was 1 of the fastest (or best) fighters in Realms´. Sooooo... while Drizzt is a Ranger class here in game... I would think a really, really long time before say, that Drizzt is a Ranger in original Salvatore´s books. I red Tolkiens stories and books about Drizzt also. While Aragorn is without any doubts almost pure Ranger, with all these tracking, hiding.. fast deplacing... and whatever. Drizzt is smtg. like fighting jack of all trade.. mainly use dual wielded scimitars, bow with very good skill in some places (I can remember 2) ... conjuring illusionarry flames, darkness. So I think he is far from Archer, thx to his brillinat sword play, much more fighting machine than (in game) limited ranger.. sound like high lvl fighter, mixed with whoknows what.
In my point of view Drizzt is not a good example of Ranger.. maybe in this game he is, maybe in books he use some ranger tracking, hiding in shadows, but for my eyes Aragorn is much better idea of a Ranger.
Classes in D&D are generally a lot more about who you are rather than what you do. The weapon you wield doesn't define your class. Aragorn is, in my mind, actually the worst common example of a ranger. He has no connection with nature, he's just in it. He's actually more of a paladin. There are no gods in Tolkien's Middle Earth, so he can't be one. Hence, he has been branded as a ranger because he belongs to a group that is called the Rangers.
U say when u are swinging with sword ( hypotetically becasue no one today is swinging and fighting with sword in his daylife today) for a certain period of time let say 10 years.. u are what than ??? . You are a soldier, but not warrior... and not a fighter. Or you are not soldier, but you a re warrior and not fighter..... or better you are not soldier, not a warrior but you are fighter. U ahahaaaa what is this argumentaiion? In modern age when u enter army and u become soldier, there are for sure a lot of profession outside of definition of a frontline fighter - like a mechanic, chef in kitchen, IT specialist amd what else.... and u r still a soldier with your rank and so on.
So I understand the argument beeing soldier not means beeing a fighter, because clearly man preparing the soup dont fight with anything but vegetable. He is still soldier but not fighting in frontline.
* This situation is also discutable, because every rank, every profession in every modern army in the world - AND THAT IS SURE - is trained with weapon during his basic training, formation or whatever u call it. And of course must shoot certain amount of bullets in year, practice the basic handling of the weapon (let say gun or rifle maybe) and in many armies in the world u must met some physical requirments and do some kind of tests every year. Sooooooo... while u are siting 10 years in office wearing uniform of some army.. making papers or what ever - U are still much better FIGHTER, than 95 percent of CIVIL population of this planet. As a mechanic, electrician, IT specialist you usually do NOT fight in frontlines, but you are still much better or efficinent combatant - FIGHTER - than for example your Brother working 10 years in bank or your girlfriend topmodel - both with no combat experiences at all.
So in modern armies all soldiers are not necasirilly fighters of a high level but they are Fighters for sure.
There is a different situation in historical armies for sure. There were not so many specialized professions in middle age army compared to modern army. But they were existing.. u always need somebody in lazaret, treating wounded soldiers, or somebody in kitchen preparing meal.
Example: Napoleon armies were almost lacking any kind of appropriete medical service/lazarets so many wounded soldiers died of diseases, infection and so on.
1 of the reason may posssibly sound like: * I want a maximum of my number of SOLDIERS stay in front line and fighting as FIGHTERS and make my army more efficient. *
In ancient times, like Greek or Rome there was almost every SOLDIER fighting in front line or doing his part of whatever he is supposed to do while fighting as a FIGHTER. Roman legionaire firing from catapult/balista, throving speras in beginning of combat, or moving in formation of shileds and long spikes or fighting close with Gladius sword. There were for sure a groups that didnt fight hand to hand - or sword to sword combat.... were shooting arows or whatever, but they were a part of combat as a FIGHTERS fighting enemy in sometimes specific and more complicated role than man carrying sword/spear and shiled. Maybe with 5 pips in different weapon if u want and RPG modifications.
If u go deep into history before Christ, fewer nad fewer soldiers were specialized in some non combat aktivity. Exceptions are cavalery soldiers, which were recruited from high nobility in almost all armies until middle age armies. But exept that u can easily become almost everything in ancient Greek/Roman army.
Talking about sort of a profesionall army like roman legion (clerly served for 15-20 years under some kind of contract-to touch a rent money after, or a citizenship of Rome, if they were not before)
Not talking about some group of farmes or another citizens gathered to fight enemy for whatever reason.
In this situation man working all the life as baker také the rusty sword and deffend the home/family against enemy. He is maybe some kind of a militia soldier equiped for personal or city defence.
In that case is that man some kind of a SOLDIER (but not a púrofessional-under circumstances),
but for sure he is NOT a FIGHTER. He has for sure no combat training, no interest in fight, living in peace.
Such a man is something like civilian carrying a weapon.
So in a profesional army deeper and deeper to the history... almost every SOLDIER was clerly a FIGHTER.
Specialized/trained with his respektive weapon to FIGHT enemy (Or beeing a GM with 5 pips in his favourite weapon if u want).
Unlike the modern army, where the situation is slightly discutable and more proffesion speciallzations are involved.
Fantasy is clearly inspirated by area of mythology, ancient history, ancient Gods, pantheons, liturgy, north sagas and similer stuff. In such a times beeing inspiration for fantasy books, not everyone carrying weapon or simply sword was a soldier for sure. But the man working as a soldier (city guard, castle, bridge, ..) was a professional and clearly prepared for a fight - so in my vision a FIGHTER.
So going deeply into history - in my vission - 99 percent of SOLDIERS in regular armies (not seasonal) were clearly FIGHTERS.
(Not mentioning mercenaries, they are historically an important part in a huge amount of europeen wars and conflicts. Example from times of Alexander the Great... when he won the battle near Gaugamel with his Greek/Macedonian army.. there were about 15,000-20,000 enemies who refused to put down weapons, even if all Persians escaped or surrendered (or get killed). That was a group of GREEK mercenaries... fighting on Persian side for money. At the end dismissed, some hired in Alexandrs army, or just returned home, but not killed according historicians.
So mercenaries in history are professional FIGHTERs for sure, while not beeing regular Soldiers all the time. There are many examples, when group of mercenaries (or ex soldiers) without job slowly get to way of crime as bandits/brigands/marauders.
Another example is Jesse James.. fighting as a partyzan (maybe mercenary-of Conf. army) on the side of the Confedaration (south) in the civil war in USA. After this war ended he turned from some kind of partyzan-non uniformed combatant to a pure bandit, gangster and murderer - and legend as well
I can see
* Ranger and Hunter are 2 different things which are often mixed. One is a profession, and one is a class. *
So what is a profession pls and what is a class?
There are many types of Rangers... like in texas is a sort of a police force or similar, have nothing to do with forestry.
And another thing Hunter can be a profession. Can be a hobby also for a lawyer who is rich enough and spend his free time in woods hunting a .... dunno... anything he wanna make trofey of.
But tell me pls what is a class than. Class simulate a profession in RPG.
If u are swinging with sword all the day.. killing evil, u r clearly some kind of a fighter class, maybe paladin. That is your definition, aktivity u do define who you are.
Clearly in RPG terms there can be an agressive bard swinging with 2h sword.. but it is (for me completaly crazy).
Ouch.....
Another critical miss.
There are a plenty of gods in Middle Earth my friend.
The fact they are not mentioned so much in trilogy or hollywood Kind of a crappy movies doesnt mean they are not there.
In reallity there is one god very very close to Aragorn almost every time. They are all the time fighting another powerfull example and in Moria they all were damm lucky to kill another one.
Read Silmarilion (J.R.R.TOLKIEN), which is smtg. like history of Valinor and Middle Earth, with a lot of NEW informations for people saying NO GODS IN MIDDLE EARTH.
There are gods in middleearth Sauron is one of them Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman are others.
5x Istari were send from another continet VALINOR ruled by high enthities(gods) called Vallar to middleearth to protect these lands. These wizards same as Sauron were from Maiar - the other class of enthities (gods) .. lower or weaker class. They were only in a human body.
Balrog in Moria is another example of Maiar. Tom Bombadil, mentioned in trilogy but not in movies, Ugoliath mentioned in 1 of part of Hobit movies by Radagast was another Maia, but in a huge spider body.
*One interesting thing... Balrog and Gandalf are smtg. like far cousins... originally spirits of fire back in Vallinor.. serving same god as I remember. While Balrog was corupted by Morgoth and become evil as many other Maia (spirits-demigods- if u want) Gandalf become one of ISTARI - wizards.
So for your statement of gods.
And for Aragorn.. he is far galaxies from Paladin class. Like u said no god clearly beeing worshiped in trilogy.
Damm it.. Aragorn lives 4x or mabye 3x live lenghth of a man. All his life he is doing some weird activities. Protecting villages in wildernes, hunting down beasts that are threatening peacefull foke, all the life hiding, also from a sight of enemy - Saurons eye.
Until he looks accidentely to the vission stone - Palanteer, Sauron had not even an idea of existing an old bloodline of Isildur.
So we can say he was hiding his own existence very very sucessfully, unlike Bilbo/Frodo chased by the Nine.
And he does not have any conecction to nature ????????
He si only in it ???????????
Try to live hidding 3xlive length in nature killing all these vermins and than say u have no connection with it.
Who the HELL is a better definition of a Ranger than this guy.
[spoiler] The Silmarillion makes very clear that the Ainur are not gods and that Ilúvatar is the only God. A closer equivalent would be archangels for the Valar and regular angels for the Maiar. All the ones you mention, plus the Balrog were Maiar.
Also, IIRC, it never got to the level of a court case. Tolkien Enterprises sent a cease and desist, and TSR ceased and desisted. TE never pushed back on the orcs issue, probably because Tolkien himself had said he got the word from one of the Scandinavian mythologies.[/spoiler]
Now i found.
English wikipedia is talking about spirit hierarchy with valar on top, Maiar close but not so powerful.
They are called angel-like spirits.
There is Manwe, wind king, king of Valar.
Orome-huntsman, king of Forest
Aule-Smith, Tulkas-wrestler and others.
All of them seems to be (in my point of view) some kind of analogy, connection or substitution of ancient Greek or maybe Viking (Germanic, Northman) pantheon.
Manwe and Zeus ..analogy as a leader or king of pantheon, wielder of a great power and lightning
Ulmo and Poseidon, Orome and Apollon (exept his sun proficiency, bad example maybe, only similar thing is the hunting side, but Apollon was more like a shooter of sun arrows than hunter
These all informations seems to definate these angel-like spirits as... gods.
Also it may be difficult to define what is and is not a god for certain people, I mean religious people, I ment no offense at all.
For me mister Tolkien wrote down something i understand in my way, as a pantheon or hierarchy of let say spirits... acting as gods.
Drizzt was trained as a fighter in the underdark, but when he came to the surface he became the apprentice of the ranger Montolio. He is a true ranger in that he is an outcast from civilization but feels compelled to protect villages in his area, even when the people don't really trust him. Barbarians are social and live among tribes with a tribal code of honor, fighters are usually involved with the military or with a noble house. They are all variations of the ''warrior'' and have a lot of overlap but vary in terms of training and mentality.
A Texas Ranger is actually a profession, and not a class. A profession is what you do, and it can change in a moment. Say you are a hunter. But then you quit. You aren't a hunter anymore. But you still have the skills you learned as a hunter. This is where you class comes in. Those hunter-skills can be applied as experience into the ranger class for example.
Classes DON'T simulate professions. Because a class has a deeper connection to who you are. A class sticks with you through changes in your life. It's more like a combination of education and experience. Like a CV.
Clearly we dont agree in this point of gods in Middle Earth.
I really dont understand class than. If there is not a profesion in RPG why we can choose or should choose a class in game? Isnt better make a CHAR in the way of Skyrim, there can be a total freedom in choices who is my char, what are his proficiences, spells armor, magic. There u can make everything in your style prefered - much more like in real live.
And clearly more realistic than in BG series.
What is class here, than?
So I am barbarian all my live.. and in one moment I desire to go adventuring. I move outside from cold north plains and want to kill some wyverns, decapitate few hundreds of orcs and slay some weak humans, dwarfs or anyone else who cross my way.
Class is barbarioan, but barbarian is not my profession. That means in RPG aspect i should think like, my barbar is doing his adventures as a hobby ?
When he come back he put down his hammers,axes, 1-2 handed swords.... and go back to shop selling willow baskets, back to the river fishing or back to bakery making crunchy croissants?
Class dont exist outside the RPG games or games globally. But what is class in game if not proffesion - job.
I dont think (if we imagine alternate reality, which really looks odd) that some Char whatever is the CLASS in game is doing this class activities as a hobby or because he has a lot of free time or no idea where to spend money, better than buy armor, bows, axes magic wands, magic scrolls.
I dont understand what is class if it is not a proffesion.
I wanna know what is a proffesion of my killing machine half-orc fighter.
Is he a baker, dancer, musician in some weird Half-orc jazz club, he sells something to other half-orcs, or peacefully look after crops in his familly farm, is he a woodcutter or an officer in Half-orc militia?
I am really curious what is he doing while my computer is down, until today I thought he is simply a Fighter all his adult life. Wheater or not will he survive to age to be a grandpa, I dont know. But if he can make it, I can easily imagine teaching young bloodthirsty half-orcs with low IQ, how to swing with huge Halberd in proper way or how to wrestle with wounded Grizzly.
* Because he was a Fighter all his life and wanna share all knowledge with young population. He will do it as a hobby, becasue even after 40 years of killing everything which move or fly, I dont know his real profession. (His class Fighter is chosen in starting menu in game, but it is clearly not the think he do for earn the money for daylife.)
His profession is maybe bored pacifist lobbing to local government for peace among all races in the Faerun.
In the real world it's not called a class, it's called a skill set. Your skill set can qualify you for a profession, or your profession can coach you towards a certain skill set. Schools today are an important part of gaining a skill set, as are hobbies. Classes are just a simplification of that, and they only give you information on the things that are relevant to your adventuring. Maybe your half-orc is a level 15 chef on the side?
Class restrictions are actually not realistic. They are just there to keep things simpler, and even the field so that everybody is equal. I do approve of that, but they are still not realistic.
This conversation has actually given me an idea for a thread, which you will all see soon enough.
I personally ain't a huge fan of class-based RPG systems, but it's still a good enough system for creating your own chars. I think that restricting a fighter who has trained in longswords all his life the option to weild a magical longsword just because it's for ie paladins only is weird, but those kind of restrictions is needed to get the system of classes to function.
I would have preferred to have, for example, the different magical schools as profiences instead and restrict it so that the higher the intelligence, the more "proficiency" points you can spend on them (opposing schools could still be added I guess). It can be done the same with strenght and dex for melee and ranged weapon prof's as well. Not sure if it would really doable though, but it's something I've pondered about the last couple of years.
I think IWD did that better. For any non paladins, Pale Justice is simply a regular longsword. It's only IN the hand of a paladin that it becomes a holy avenger.
Sry for derailing thread from ranger discussions to item restriction discussions.
So, my ideal Ranger carries:
A bow - providing a way to kill enemies from a safe distance, and also a way to bring down game to eat.
A handaxe - as his main-hand melee weapon, also doubling as a tool to cut wood for fire to provide warmth and cooking needs... on occasion, can also be thrown for extra style points!
A knife or dagger - held in the off-hand for melee and used to prepare and eat food... ideal for a stealthy takedown if the opportunity presents itself.
Pipe and tobacco - a potential piece offering, and a handy supply of dry tinder in extremis... also a relaxing way to wind down after a hard day's march!
Armour should be comfortable enough to sleep in, light enough to sneak in, and also warm enough to provide some defence from the elements... I like basic leather variants and Hide/Fur and dislike any shiny metallic bits like mail and/or studs. Boots are more expensive than the rest of his outfit put together.
Big cloaks for the win!
Quarterstaves are acceptable... a good walking stick can be a boon on rough terrain... also a nice option to deal with tetchy (but generally innocent) locals if you are forced to fight, but don't necessarily want to inflict grievous injuries.
I think you'd find scimitar would likely fit as well as Axe. It is the closest thing in the game you can find to a machete.
Personally, I see my archers and my stalkers as scouts for a military force more than anything. I would like using that build for a beast master though.
An actual battleaxe would probably weight around 5-6 pounds, half of which is the haft. So it's not even that heavy. A woodsman's axe might be a bit heavier, maybe 7-8 pounds, which actually makes it a very unpractical combat weapon against someone using a sword for example. And it's not just the weight I'm talking about.
I'm not picking a fight here, just fooling around.
I like the setup and the rough justifications above. My character's priority is to travel light... He won't be perfectly prepared for all circumstances, but that's where he needs to use his brain...
However, the character as mentioned above has chosen or been forced (haven't decided yet
For more of a military scout concept (as one of the previous posters mentioned) or a Tolkein-esque "wandering guardian", they definitely would want to carry some sort of specialised martial weaponry. But that is a different character, with a sworn duty to confound/confront/destroy the enemy.
A modern equivalent of my character would probably carry some form of single-action hunting rifle as his only firearm... simple, reliable and eminently suited to his purposes. If civil war broke out, or a local gang suddenly went on the warpath, he might wish that he had an assault rifle, sidearm, grenades and all sort of other goodies... but such things/ events aren't a part of his day-to-day existence.