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IWD2: what are the low intelligence dangers for tanks?

Artas1984Artas1984 Member Posts: 49
edited October 2015 in Off-Topic
My half-orc Battle Cleric of Tempus starts like this:

STR: 20
DEX: 12
CON: 18
WIS: 18
INT: 4
CHA: 2

I only need skill points for concentration, nothing else, but is there any danger of intelligence being too low? I could lower the intelligence even more and pump up some dexterity instead or i could lower my dexterity and pump up some intelligence. Now, i don't want my Cleric to be slow, so i will not drop dexterity below 10. This Cleric will be a tank, with that low charisma he will never engage in any dialogue (except the drinking contest for the wolf medallion).

So what are the dangers of ultra low intelligence?

Comments

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,717
    A character needs a minimum 9 INT to be able to use spell scrolls and wands.

    For a cleric, you don't need more than 16 CON for additional HPs, because only fighters get HPs for mor than 16 in this stat.

    Also, I believe a half-orc can has 19 STR, not 20.

    If you want a tank, not a damage dealer, better concentrate on DEX than STR, because AC matters for your tank to "tank" for a longer period of time.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    @bengoshi

    The poster is referring to IWD2, not IWD:EE.

    Put simply, there are no dangers of ultra low intelligence. You will only get 1 skill point per level, which you can put into concentration. It will be very difficult for this character to ever get any of the elemental damage feats, which can be very useful.

    I would go for the following:
    Str 20
    Dex 18
    Con 14
    Wis 18
    Int 3
    Cha 1

    How cheesy do you want to go exactly? I know of one quest that will give you +2 to Wisdom (permanently) and another quest that will give you +1 to Strength and +1 to Wisdom (also both permanent). The quests themselves are not mutually exclusive, but the rewards are, since the rewards depend on your character having at least one level in a particular character class. These character classes are mutually exclusive due to the alignment requirements.

    PS make the character lawful and add a level of monk. You get better AC than is possible with armor by having a level of monk and going unarmored. Plus you get evasion.

    JuliusBorisovelminstersemiticgodlunar
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    Thinking about it, you couldn't take a level of monk without suffering an experience penalty. Half-orcs favoured class is the barbarian.

    You won't get an experience penalty if you just make the character a solid Battleguard of Tempus. Experience penalties only apply with multiclassing, and only if one of the classes is not the race's favoured class. So, if you made a half-orc Monk/Battleguard of Tempus, you would receive an experience penalty. But, you could make a half-orc Barbarian/Battleguard of Tempus with no experience penalty, because Barbarian is the favoured class of half-orcs.

    Hope this helps.

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,402
    edited October 2015
    There should be no difference in the survivability of your character in the battles to come. Iwd2 mind flayers do not drain intelligence points like bg2 ones do, IIRC.

    Some feats like expertise etc. will be forever locked to you.
    You can not train knowledge arcana and alchemy thus potions and magic items will be unidentified to your character.
    And spellcraft will be a big no, you can only train concentration. Spellcraft is useful in battles as it lets you recognise a spell being cast by an enemy. If your skill check is succesful (which is not shown in the battle log) you will see a floating text on the enemy saying 'casting x spell' However this is only marginally useful as you can guess what spell is being cast by an enemy from the casting glows and incantations. Like, if an ancient lich is casting a long, drawn out necromantic spell you will know you are in big trouble unless you have tons of hp and a strong fortitude save. But spellcraft will let you know if it is a horrid wilting or wail of the banshee.

    JuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    Not only do IWD2 Mind Flayers not drain INT; it's not even possible to kill a character in IWD through stat drain. Your ability scores can never drop below 1. That's why Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't instantly kill any character with STR below 16.

    JuliusBorisovlunarNifftDJKajuru
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 685
    Actually, in 3E, the bonuses from ability scores increase linearly. A Constitution score of 18 grants you a bonus of +4 on all related rolls (hit points, fortitude saving throws, Concentration skill), no matter what class you are [at least in the Pen& Paper game!].

    semiticgodDragonspear
  • Artas1984Artas1984 Member Posts: 49
    edited November 2015
    Well, i never really saw the usefulness of spellcraft even in other D&D games when i had many points of spellcraft skill.. I never saw the floating text above caster..

    I would prefer DEX 14 and CON 18 for a battle cleric, since high DEX will waste the benefit of heavy armor, and CON 18 will add fortitude, which for a cleric is more important than reflex anyway.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    High enough spellcraft allows you to take the elemental damage feats, which also provide elemental resistance. But, what's less commonly known is that they boost ALL elemental damage output you do, including weapons. Let's say you are a cleric carrying around a weapon that does 1-6 fire damage - that damage will be boosted by the Spirit of Flame feat.

    Actually the best AC you can reach in the game requires that you wear no armor. Armor in Icewind Dale 2 is pretty terrible, its better to rely on spells such as Shield, Spirit Armor, Ghost Armor, Barkskin, Mass Haste, and the Monk's AC bonus.

    A cleric's naturally high wisdom synergizes nicely with the monk AC bonus. Plus, one level of monk provides evasion. In my IWD2 playthroughs, all of my characters have 18 dex and evasion, which means I can drop fireballs right on my party with no-one taking any damage at all. Well, except enemies of course.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    You can actually reach 71 effective AC in IWD2 while wearing armor. Though you have to use Drakkas' Chain/Fury to maximize your DEX bonus. You just need a Deep Gnome with 30 cleric levels to get +10 DEX via DUHM:

    10 base
    8 Drakkas' Fury
    13 DEX
    5 Barkskin
    5 Expertise
    6 Divine Shell
    5 Red Fang's Tomb
    2 War Chant of the Sith
    4 Haste
    5 Brazen Bands
    3 Prayer and Recitation
    4 Deep Gnome
    1 Dodge

    71 Total

    It's not quite as tough as another Deep Gnome tank, but it requires less micromanagement. Also, you can get higher AC by having multiple bards in your party and/or using the Lingering Song feat to stack songs while paused, though some dislike the Lingering Song trick because it can do basically everything.

    I once ran a party composed entirely of bards. I didn't stack more songs that I had bards to sing (with Lingering Song, that's 12 songs total per round), but it was still ridiculous. +6 to hit, damage, and saving throws at level 1. An additional +6 to luck and +18 to saving throws at level 5. And maybe +12 to AC, regeneration, and physical damage reduction at level 11. They were chunking enemies left and right with arrows (which get a triple critical hit multiplier, and therefore benefit especially from luck effects), making their saves 95% of the time regardless of the spell, taking minimum damage from all spells, and eventually becoming almost impossible to damage with physical attacks.

    FinneousPJ
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    edited November 2015
    True, but Chain of Drakkas is unique in that it has no limit on the dexterity bonus to AC. No other armor does that, plus it is only available right at the end of the game. It's the exception and not the rule - all other armor imposes a cap on your dexterity bonus to AC, and all of them are inferior to basic mage spells.

    The JUPP contains a deep gnome decoy that can reach the high 80's, but it has massive experience penalties.

    EDIT: Is Red Fang's Tomb added by a mod? I can't find it in the official items list

    Post edited by Ancalagon44 on
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    @Ancalagon44: I believe Red Fang's Tomb is the HoF version of a tower shield. I forget where it is, but I understand they both have the same AC bonus.

    The Chain of Drakkas is only available late-game, but it doesn't matter. AC doesn't need to be that high outside of HoF mode, and in HoF mode, you're already importing characters with late-game items.

    And Drakkas isn't the only form of armor that does not limit DEX bonuses. All shields, another form of armor, also cancel WIS bonuses, but do not restrict DEX bonuses. No mage spell grants a shield bonus to AC, a different type of AC modifier (the Shield spell is something of a misnomer). My point was just that Monk levels and their WIS bonuses aren't necessary to create a high-AC tank in HoF mode.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    I saw Red Fang's Tomb mentioned in a Tactics guide - pretty sure it is a Tactics mod item.

    In any case, yes, monk wisdom is not the only way to achieve high AC. However, I think we can both agree that any sort of armor that limits dexterity bonus will make it impossible to achieve ultra high AC. Whether you use Drakkas or the monk wisdom bonus, anything that limits your dex bonus to AC will make it impossible to reach the upper levels of AC.

    semiticgod
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    Nuts. That makes it a max 70 AC build, using another shield, in vanilla. And Tactics already buffs Vipergout enough to make it into IWD2's best tanking spell besides Resilient Sphere. And there's an install option to grant the party bonuses to AC and all stats in HoF mode.

    On a related note, I looked back at an Excel sheet and it seems the maximum AC attainable without using the Lingering Song feat is 111 or 112. It requires a LOT of luck, though, as well as importing and exporting (or multiple playthroughs) to duplicate random drop potions to crank up Wisdom and Dexterity to 40. The character is a Deep Gnome Monk(25)/Sorcerer/Thief, with a party of five Bards to stack War Chant of the Sith.

    10 base
    7 Shield
    5 Ghost Armor
    5 Brazen Bands
    15 Wisdom bonus
    15 Dexterity bonus
    5 Expertise
    3 Sunfire Talisman
    4 Deep Gnome bonus
    3 Crow's Nest
    1 Dodge
    4 Haste
    10 War Chants of the Sith
    5 Barkskin
    4 Tenser's Transformation (scroll)
    5 Monk bonus
    9 Ryomaru's Harmless Tanuki Staff
    111 Total (or maybe 112)

    The thing is that the HoF version of the Tanuki Staff has a small chance of giving the wielder +1 generic AC for 2 rounds per hit.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    I would think you mean a Deep Gnome Monk 25/Wizard/Rogue, not sorcerer, because Deep Gnomes receive a massive penalty to charisma and you would need at least 13 intelligence for expertise anyway.

  • greenbeans8greenbeans8 Member Posts: 19
    It affects a saving throw.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    @Ancalagon44: As I mentioned before, the build assumes infinite potions to increase stats, so stat values are effectively unlimited. The gnome could also have 40 CHA.

    It's irrelevant in any case. If you allowed yourself to amass an infinite number of potions via importing and exporting or multiple playthroughs, you could use Potions of Resistance and Greater Resistance to give yourself 100- damage reduction to all physical damage, rendering AC unnecessary.

  • greenbeans8greenbeans8 Member Posts: 19
    As in a roll against, hold person, stun, daze, charm, paralysis et cetera.

    semiticgod
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    Intelligence doesn't affect saving throws at all. Only Wisdom, dexterity, constitution and charisma (paladins only) do.

    Fair enough, but if you're going to cheese like that, just use EEKeeper to edit your stats directly and save yourself the hassle. I don't think there is any point in discussing AC values that require either mods, editing, item creation via console, or importing and exporting.

    I suppose what I'm saying is that maximum possible AC in one playthrough has relevance to me, whereas maximum possible AC via importing, editing, modding and/or EEKeeping is completely irrelevant to me.

  • greenbeans8greenbeans8 Member Posts: 19
    edited November 2015

    Intelligence doesn't affect saving throws at all. Only Wisdom, dexterity, constitution and charisma (paladins only) do.

    Fair enough, but if you're going to cheese like that, just use EEKeeper to edit your stats directly and save yourself the hassle. I don't think there is any point in discussing AC values that require either mods, editing, item creation via console, or importing and exporting.

    I suppose what I'm saying is that maximum possible AC in one playthrough has relevance to me, whereas maximum possible AC via importing, editing, modding and/or EEKeeping is completely irrelevant to me.

    It has a synergy bonus. For example you might obviously know dex and strength provide a +1 base attack bonus and a + 1 armour class bonus for every 2 attributes past 10 so... together they add a .02 which sounds inane but it becomes an innate bonus after... 16 dex and 16 strength, or are you mad? Your wisdom is somewhat solid. Nice powerbuild. I do not use character modifications to abilty points or whatever the attributes are called in this board game tirned video game to waste less. A decimal makes a difference to a dollar right? I apologize if I offended you.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    I'll be completely honest greenbeans8 - and I hope I am not being rude - when I say you have not offended because I did not understand what you said.

    I apologize if English is not your first language, I truly do not understand what you posted.

    semiticgod
  • greenbeans8greenbeans8 Member Posts: 19

    I'll be completely honest greenbeans8 - and I hope I am not being rude - when I say you have not offended because I did not understand what you said.

    I apologize if English is not your first language, I truly do not understand what you posted.

    To put it in simpler terms. A total dexterity score of 8 causes a -1 to armour class. Any skill points that gain a bonus with dexterity scores, suffer a -5. So intelligence affects skill points. This forum is regarding the video game known as Icewind Dale Enhanced Edition, correct?

  • greenbeans8greenbeans8 Member Posts: 19
    It is known as an ability score penalty not an ability score penal. //Goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool!

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,074
    edited November 2015
    @greenbeans8: Not exactly. Intelligence determines the number of skill points you can invest in skills, but it only modifies some of them. For example, Intelligence will let you invest more points in Disarm Device, which is also governed by Intelligence. An 18 INT will let you max out the Disarm Device skill, and also apply a +4 bonus to it.

    But Hide is governed by Dexterity, not Intelligence. So an 18 INT will let you max out the Hide skill, but it won't apply any bonuses on top. If your DEX is 18, however, then you'll get a +4 to Hide.

    Also, a DEX of 8 should only impose a -1 penalty to both armor class and skills such as hide, not -5. You'd need a DEX of 1 to get a -5 penalty to a DEX-based skill.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    @greenbeans8

    This forum is regarding Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition, but this thread is concerning Icewind Dale 2. The two use different rulesets.

    As semiticgod explained, Intelligence does affect skill points available on level up, but only applies its modifier to certain skills. Wilderness Lore, for example, is indirectly affected by intelligence because it provides more skill points, but a higher intelligence does not directly benefit wilderness lore.

    In any case, your statement "it affects a saving throw" is incorrect in Icewind Dale 2 regarding intelligence. Intelligence does not directly affect saving throws or armor class.

    semiticgod
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