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Bug discovered, but a nice bug it is!

It involves Slayer Change and Mirror Image.
In fact, if you use Mirror Image and Slayer Change, you won't suffer any damage from Slayer form, meaning you can virtually stay in Slayer form all day.
It appears to work with every source of mirror image, namely DMM special ability, spell, scroll, or item (ring of duplication)
It does not make Slayer form OP given how bad it is on its own but has nice roleplay possibility, like, you mastered your essence and thus your Slayer Form, and can keep it as will.
And potentially good powergaming possibilities: think about what a swashbuckler could do in such a form.
Well, I may well do a playthrough based on this, it sounds fun.

semiticgoddessjoluvlolienDJKajuruWithinAmnesiaButtercheese

Comments

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    I just tested this, and it looks like it doesn't completely prevent you from taking damage; I think it just randomly applies the damage to either you or one of your mirror images. In this example, my DMM didn't take damage in the first two rounds but did in the third. I don't know whether or not this should be considered a bug. It's true that if you're already in Slayer form when cast Mirror Image, then you take the damage in every round.
    image

    JuliusBorisov
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,300
    One thing about the slayer form is that I think you can't rest while in it. So I'm not certain how effective this strategy would be.

    semiticgoddessArunsunjoluvWithinAmnesia
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    @elminster True indeed, though a Slayer-based playthrough is meant to be an evil one, who cares about reputation in this case... (There is more than enough money in the game anyway)
    @joluv I tested it a couple more times and it indeed worked as you said, though strangely enough, when I tried using mirror image scroll as a UAI thief, it would create only one image and still I would not be damaged, just as if the damage did not dispel the image.

    joluvsemiticgoddessWithinAmnesia
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,262
    Doesn't it just instantly kill you anyway after a turn or so? You can also prevent damage using Protection from Magic Energy but you still die eventually.

    lunarWithinAmnesiasarevok57
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    @Artemius_I in fact it does not "kill you instantly", it is not a death effect like PW:Death or Finger of Death, it deals you 1125 magic damage with no way of reducing these damage (No matter your resistance to magic or magic damage you will be dealt 1125 damage). And the game has no other damage round planned past the 1125 damage round, which means that if you survive that, which you are not supposed to, you can stay in Slayer form at will. And Mirror image can tank the damages for you, meaning you can survive the lethal round.

    lunarDJKajuruWithinAmnesiaathanas
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590



    @elminster: I checked the files and tested it. Apparently, the inability to save or rest only applies for the first 45 seconds. If you live past the magic damage, you can rest or save as normal.

    I started my Swashy Slayer playthrough and reached the exact same conclusion.

    lolien
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Arunsun said:


    I started my Swashy Slayer playthrough and reached the exact same conclusion.

    Swashbuckler Slayer? I actually just quit a solo Swashbuckler run, in which I intended to combine the Swashbuckler bonuses with the Slayer's high base APR. I decided a Bounty Hunter would add more variety.

    I also considered a Wizard Slayer->Thief, to get to 100 magic resistance by the end of the game. The slayer form doesn't stack with magic resistance from weapons or shields, so the maximum MR for a Swashbuckler Slayer would be 95 (10 from Gaxx, 20 from the Human Flesh +5, 5 from the Machine of Lum the Mad, 10 from the Amulet of the Seldarine, 10 from Hell, and 40 from the Slayer form)--not quite enough for a solo no-reload run, as it won't necessarily block a Maze spell. A party run could get a Slayer Charname to 100 MR by donating a Holy Symbol or using the Improved Bard Song, however.

    A Fighter/Thief would have much worse damage output by the end of the game, but it would have a lot more HLAs, and greater variety in its HLA choices.

    lolien
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    @semiticgod Slayer form gives immunity to imprisonment but not to Maze? How very weird...
    A way for a Swashbuckler Slayer to reach 100% MR is using Shield of Fyrus Khal (a new item that gives a 5% magic resistance aura to your allies ) along with Helm of Vhailor.
    But it would not be exactly solo since you will have to recruit Neera for about 2min to get the subquest that gives you that item. And anyway it would be a very unreliable way to get these last 5% given how easy a Simulacrum is dispelled

    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    edited October 2015
    @Arunsun: I think it's common for solo runs to bring NPCs into the party strictly to start quests and such. That said, I just realized there are three other ways of getting a solo Slayer to 100 MR, besides dualing from Wizard Slayer to mage (the spell works as well as the scroll; just not Ilbratha) or to thief.

    First, we could have a bard Charname sing the Improved Bard Song, which will grant an extra bit of MR. But this distracts from attacking, so it's not all that useful.

    Second, we could use a Cleric/Mage or Cleric/Thief. Clerics get a Holy Symbol at level 25, which grants an extra 5 MR. A dual-classed Mage->Cleric would be much faster than a multiclass, as it takes 3.825 million XP to reach cleric level 25.

    Third, we could just pick a Dark Moon Monk. They can cast Mirror Image once per day at level 11, and get 2% MR per level starting at level 14. This would probably be by far the easiest way to get to non-dispellable 100 MR in the game.

    I think I might try out the Dark Moon Monk kit with this in mind.

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    @Arunsun @semiticgod: I was playing around with this some, and my charname is reverts to normal form every time he enters a new area. Is there some way of getting around this?

    Also, it seems that Ilbratha works the same as DMM Mirror Image, at least for preventing the damage. In a few tries, I took damage 0-2 times per attempt but always survived.

    loliensemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Further testing found that DMM Mirror Image can fail to prevent death. It nearly always stops the final blow, but on one occasion, my monk died despite Mirror Image.

    Also, although the polymorph weapon remains indefinitely and is unaffected by Dispel/Remove Magic, there are two ways to remove it. First, if you gain access to Slayer form before fighting Irenicus in Spellhold, and stay in Slayer form after you rest, you will return to normal form after the dream scene in which the fake Imoen talks about using the Slayer form. Also, CTRL-R will remove the Slayer weapon, but you will retain Slayer form. This means you'll have the AC, APR, STR, DEX, and resistances of the Slayer form, but not the immunities, the cold damage on hit, the saving throws, or the THAC0 bonus. On the plus side, you can use any weapon while in Slayer form.

    lolienSkatanWithinAmnesia
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    @Arunsun: One disadvantage is that you don't get the Slayer's immunities to stun, PW: stun, level drain, imprisonment, sleep, confusion, charm, and fear if you dispel the Slayer weapon. You just get the STR, DEX, APR, AC, and MR. Sometimes you'd want to stick with the Slayer weapon.

    Carsomyr does stack with Slayer form, it seems. I gave my monk UAI, dispelled the Slayer weapon with CTRL-R, and Carsomyr bumped her MR from 123 up to 127.

    Fighter-type HLAs also work well with the kit. Hardiness helps with one of the build's few weaknesses, which is raw physical damage from enemy critical hits. In ToB, the large swarms of enemies with high APR can sometimes overcome even a Slayer with -27 AC. A Cleric of Helm->Thief would be able to combine Armor of Faith with Defender of Easthaven, but AoF would require some switching back and forth between Slayer form and normal form, which costs us some reputation. A Fighter/Thief, however would require access to scrolls of Shocking Grasp, Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch, Phantom Blade, Minute Meteors, and/or Black Blade of Disaster in order to dispel the weapon, and although there are probably more than enough for a saga run, it demands a little extra management compared to a Cleric of Helm build.

    The only characters who lack access to Mirror Image are clerics, druids, and beastmasters, as they can neither use the spell nor equip Ilbratha. Monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, thieves, mages, and bards can all perform the Slayer trick.

    Only a few characters can dispel the Slayer weapon: clerics of Helm, monks, mages, bards, and thieves with Use Any Item. Druids and clerics may dispel magical weapons using Flame Blade and Spiritual Weapon, but these cannot be cast during Slayer form.

    Reaching 100 MR can be a little tougher. Monks achieve it automatically. Some EE weapons I'm not familiar with add MR as well. Carsomyr can bring anyone with UAI up to 90. Paladins cannot do this, as they can't dispel the Slayer weapon to equip Carsomyr. The Improved Bard Song and a Holy Symbol of Lathander/Talos/Helm both add 5, which are the only ways a UAI-based Slayer build can achieve 100 MR without dispelling the Slayer weapon (costing some scrolls if you're not a Fighter/Mage/Thief or Mage/Thief) and using Carsomyr or the Flail of Ages +5. An SCS Shapeshifter's werewolf tokens also stack with Slayer MR and each other, but they overwrite the Slayer's STR, DEX, and APR, and since druids can't perform the trick, only thieves with UAI can use these tokens in Slayer form. Notably, dual-wielding these tokens in Slayer form will give 120 MR, immunity to all elemental damage, and 12 HP regeneration per round, but the tokens are only +3 weapons and have no on-hit effects.

    Single-class Wizard Slayers achieve 100 MR in Slayer form at level 22 (3.5 million XP) if they use the Human Flesh and get the Hell bonus to MR. Without the Hell bonus, they have to be at level 26, and without either the Hell bonus or the Human Flesh, they have to be at level 32.

    KaigenArunsunlolienJuliusBorisov
  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567

    The only characters who lack access to Mirror Image are clerics, druids, and beastmasters, as they can neither use the spell nor equip Ilbratha. Monks, fighters, rangers, paladins, thieves, mages, and bards can all perform the Slayer trick.

    Virtually anyone can use the Ring of Duplication, which opens this trick up to Clerics and Druids (and makes the Priest of Helm build potentially flow without the need to dual-class).

    semiticgoddesslolienJuliusBorisov
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    Yeah Ring of Duplication from the Vagrant Blade party in the Borrokin Amphitheater Map (Rasaad quest) gives Mirror image to anyone, except wizard slayer but they would get it from Ilbratha.
    If Carsomyr stacks with Slayer form then Cheesiness will reach unprecedented levels with a 9 APR 25STR Carsomyr wielder with 100% undispellable MR and -26 AC. Time to create the most powerful Bhaalspawn of all time, guys. I'm on it. Really I hardly fear anything from this point, except imprisonment, but I might as well cast Slayer form once when I see an enemy with imprisonment who walked to me and started casting this green orb announcing Imprisonment. I should be able to recover my Slayer weapon before imprisonment is cast, and thus get back immunities. Just have to end the fight quickly after that.
    So far my solo no-reload run is going rather smooth with only one dangerous fight against the mage in Maevar Quest, too many summons, had to use a potion of invisibility.
    There is no upcoming fight that looks threatening except the Bodhi encounter.

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    So every class has a means of casting Mirror Image and therefore prolonging the Slayer change. Are there any methods of dispelling the Slayer weapon that apply to all classes?

    lolien
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    edited October 2015

    So every class has a means of casting Mirror Image and therefore prolonging the Slayer change. Are there any methods of dispelling the Slayer weapon that apply to all classes?

    Yes, I just found it, works with every class except Wizard Slayer:
    Using Cowl of the Stars.
    This cloak which you find during Rasaad's questline allows you to use Melf's Minute Meteors, and once you consume them all you will have your normal weapon back.

    Who would have believed a LG monk would be the one to unleash such an evil on Toril?

    loliensemiticgoddessJuliusBorisovKaigen
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    edited October 2015
    So how do we maximize this trick?

    I'm at the final battle of ToB with a solo Dark Moon Monk Slayer build and it trashed almost everything in the game (I was using SCS, Core rules). The only places where she had real trouble were in ToB, when enemy fighters became stronger and more numerous, and her -26 AC (illegal; it would have been about -20 unbuffed had I not stacked Hell bonuses) and 40% damage resistances via Hardiness were not always enough, costing us a lot of potions. She also had to boost her elemental resistances to handle Fire Shields (it was easier to wait them out) and other nonmagical forms of damage. Mages, by contrast, were never an issue. The only disabler that ever affected her was an Implosion spell from a Balor, which I could have prevented with the Ring of Free Action.

    Reaching 100 MR was a huge step, and it should be a high priority for a Slayer build. But a monk suffers in terms of physical and elemental damage resistances. Physical damage is an especially big problem. How do we fix this?

    Clerics have Armor of Faith, and this will stack with Hardiness for Fighter/Clerics, but this must be cast before switching to Slayer form, and transforming multiple times will cost us reputation and therefore money. A Cleric/Mage can cast AoF via a sequencer, but can't use Hardiness; a Fighter/Mage/Cleric can do both, but its Armor of Faith spells will be relatively low level.

    A fighter can equip the Defender of Easthaven, as can thieves, though thieves without fighter levels will have poor THAC0 when using it. Barbarians especially benefit, as can Dwarven Defenders. However, both of these classes lack access to UAI, and it takes them much longer to hit 100 MR. It could take them until ToB or the bottom of Watcher's Keep to reach that point, or require the help of the Improved Bard Song, which is another big investment in XP.

    If we plan on using a weapon other than the Slayer weapon, then we lose out on a lot of THAC0 unless our character is a fighter, ranger, paladin, monk, or perhaps a Swashbuckler.

    I think a multiclass Fighter/Thief might be one of the best options. They gain access to Use Any Item at the same speed as a normal thief, they get more uses out of Hardiness than a normal fighter, and they can use both the Defender of Easthaven and Carsomyr without suffering THAC0 penalties. During SoA, they will probably mostly use Carsomyr, but against ToB fighters, they can switch over to the Defender of Easthaven to stack with Hardiness, as they will eventually be able to reach 100 MR even without Carsomyr.

    A Swashbuckler would also work well. It would have -8 THAC0 with Carsomyr by 8 million XP, compared to -10 for a Fighter/Thief, and deal 6 more damage per hit. It would also be able to reach the AC cap without party assistance. However, it would not have access to Hardiness and would have slightly fewer HLAs overall (16 instead of 19), which means it would have worse survivability against the toughest opponents in ToB compared to a Fighter/Thief.

    A Fighter/Mage/Thief would enjoy the same advantages as a Fighter/Thief, but would also be able to get the mage stronghold and therefore gain access to the Golden Girdle--the only way to maximize our AC vs. slashing damage. It also gets 20 HLAs instead of 19.

    A Shapeshifter->Fighter also has excellent potential. Dual-wielding Greater Werewolf Tokens in Slayer form would grant us 120 MR, immunity to all of the elements, and 12 HP regeneration per round. This build would also let us use Hardiness, if not the Defender of Easthaven.

    Come to think of it, a paladin--ideally an Inquisitor--would actually be one of the best Slayer builds. A paladin won't have to reach 3 million XP to use Carsomyr. This gets us 100 MR much quicker, though we still have to kill some tough critters, and unlike a monk, the paladin will have much better weapons to use.

    lolienJuliusBorisov
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    edited October 2015
    I just doublechecked, Carsomyr does not stack with Slayer MR. The 50% will only replace the 40%. That means you cannot reach 100% MR so early in the game.
    I just thought about an Inquisitor wielding Purifier and a Shield
    Even with the +4 version only you can reach 100%MR fairly easily: 40 from slayer form, 20 from Purifier, 10 from ring of gaxx, 10 from Hell, 10 from an amulet, 5from MoLtM and 5 from Shield of Fyrus Khal
    You would have a good damage output (5APR with 25 Str etc...) and great AC, along with the OP dispel and true sight.
    Correct me if I am wrong but I believe you can stack a Ring of protection and a +X shield, meaning you could as well equip a ring of protection+2/3 along with the shield, and equip a non-magical armor (switching between Splint Mail against crushing and full plate mail for the rest) for the specific AC, which would give both AC and good saving throws.
    Physical damage can be further mitigated against very low thac0 enemies with Defender of Easthaven (since 2 AC won't be too much of a difference)
    As for Golden Girdle, you can get one from Neera's ToB Quest in the arena. Much later than as a mage, unfortunately, but still better than nothing.

    An Archer could do a great job using Calling shot + high APR to drastically lower enemy Thac0, which is insane with very low AC. He would still be able to do good job melee if needed, or deal an awful lot from afar with, say, Firetooth, Klogarath, the Brick.

    Post edited by Arunsun on
    JuliusBorisovloliensemiticgoddess
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Does MR from the Anti-Paladin sword stack with Slayer MR?

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    edited October 2015
    joluv said:

    Does MR from the Anti-Paladin sword stack with Slayer MR?

    Ir'revrykal does not give MR, unfortunately :(

    joluvsemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    Odd. I tested out the Carsomyr thing by using CTRL-R on my monk and giving it UAI via EEKeeper and it worked, but when I created a fighter/thief from scratch, Carsomyr failed to stack.

    So, no 100 MR before 3 million XP or before Hell without a monk, so far.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    I just tested it and found that this trick also works with the Ravager form from Ascension.

    The Ravager's MR, for some reason, does not stack with anything. However, it does have 50% resistance to physical damage, which does stack with Barbarian resistances and Hardiness.

    Also, the Ravager weapon only lasts 60 seconds and thus dispels itself automatically. There's also a bug in which the Cast Spell opcodes are all coded as not casting instantly, which means you repeatedly attempt to cast a spell for the first 60 seconds and cannot move.

    Time for a new run, I think.

    lolien
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    MR

    Odd. I tested out the Carsomyr thing by using CTRL-R on my monk and giving it UAI via EEKeeper and it worked, but when I created a fighter/thief from scratch, Carsomyr failed to stack.

    So, no 100 MR before 3 million XP or before Hell without a monk, so far.

    It does give 10% additionnal MR compared to Slayer form, hence your MR going from 123 to 127
    But Carsomyr does not add 50% on top of the 40%, it just replaces the "set 40%" by "set 50%"

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    Bringing in some more details about dispelling Slayer weapon:
    It works perfectly with the Cowl of the Star on any class except the ever-shitty Wizard Slayer.
    You'll keep Slayer form and attributes (APR, AC and saving throws), but you will lose immunities to Stun and imprisonment.
    Oh and interestingly, it also removes the set 100HP and brings back your normal HP pool.
    Overall it is very very strong with one single downside (besides immunities): if you dispel your weapon, save and reload, you will be back to natural form (with low STR DEX and APR). That is of little consequence (due to how easy the infinite slayer form trick and the dispel slayer weapon trick are to pull off) if you don't care about reputation but can become annoying if playing with a paladin, for example, unless you make long game session (not like you could die in a full HP slayer form)

    JuliusBorisovFinneousPJsemiticgoddess
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,590
    edited November 2015
    Alright, bringing in even more details about dispelling Slayer Weapon with Melf Minute Meteor and other means:
    You guys may know of the bug that exists with MMM and EB:
    If you consume all of these, you will then keep the APR till you reload the game:
    In MMM case it's 5APR. It works with both the spell and the Cowl of the Stars.
    In EB Case it 4.5APR and undispellable improved haste, which is effectively 9 APR, on top of which you may add APR from other sources (fighter level/proficiency)

    Here is what I did this time:
    Loaded in ToB my Wild Mage, picked up Rasaad's Cowl of the Stars
    I did the infinite slayer trick, then used cowl of the stars.
    Once I had consumed all the meteors I had the following APR:
    With any melee weapon: 5 (instead of 4 if it were the Slayer APR, since I have no other source of APR)
    Firetooth (Melee): 5 as well
    Firetooth (Ranged): 5 as well
    Sling: 1 APR.

    I tested it with another way of dispelling the weapon, one that has no APR bug involved, namely shocking grasp in a sequencer, here is what I had:
    Any Melee weapon: 4 APR (Normal "slayer" APR)
    Firetooth (Both melee and ranged): 5(4 from slayer+ 1 bonus because firetooth and Boomy dagger both have 2 base APR)
    Sling: still 1 APR

    One last test I made:
    Dispelling it with EB (from chain contingency on a C/M).
    Any Melee weapon: 9APR (instead of 8: 4 from slayer *2 from undispellable improved haste)
    Sling: 2 (1 normal*2 from undispellable improved haste)
    Conclusion:
    Dispelling the weapon with any way except MMM and EB will give you the Slayer form 4 APR with any melee weapon and throwable weapons that are normally melee (Throwing axes hammers daggers). To this 4 APR you can add any bonus APR you get. That is, equipping a offhand weapon, or a weapon with 2 base APR, or getting APR from mastery or fighter levels, within the cap of 5 APR. On top of that you can of course use improved haste.
    Dispelling the weapon with MMM, whether from the cowl or a sequencer, and consuming all the MMM will grant you 5 APR with any melee weapon and throwable melee weapon regardless of proficiencies as per the MMM/EB bug I mentioned at the beginning of this post. You can use improved haste on top of this and get 10APR.
    Dispelling it with EB from a chain contingency on a C/M and consuming them all will grant 4.5APR and undispellable IH, that is 9 APR, as per the MMM/EB bug. You cannot use IH on top of this, since you already have it.
    Dispelling it with MMM/EB and not consuming them (because these are dispellable through normal dispel magic) will leave you in the same case as the first one.
    No matter how you dispel the Slayer Weapon, ranged weapons ( any type of Bows, slings and darts) will still have their normal APRs.

    semiticgoddessJuliusBorisov
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,833
    To clarify, the Firetooth Arunsun is mentioning is the +3 throwing dagger, not the +4 crossbow.

    JuliusBorisov
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