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Anyone experienced with a blade? (questions)

NeeberNeeber Member Posts: 33
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
So ive played through bg1 with a blade multiple times but was thinking of doing a full saga run. The only thing that gives me pause is the THACO progression and cap for thief / bards.... im envisioning a dual wield magic user that self buffs and chops. Ive heard their op but will their poor thaco keep me from chopping things to death late game. Apr is a non issue with the scarlet ninjato and improved haste... but with the party i plan on taking i really need him to be an effective melee DD ... how do u guys manage the base THACO cap in SOA and especially TOB? I really like the idea of a blade instead of f/m (too generic ) but need some reassurance.

Comments

  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    THAC0 in SoA is not a problem for a Blade unless against super duper high AC enemies like a dragon.
    Fast level progression with thief THAC0
    +2-4 weapon
    +1 Pale Green Ioun Stone
    +1 Gauntlets of Weapon Skill
    +3 from 19 STR with belt or innate
    +2 Offensive Spin
    +4 Improved Invisibility
    In ToB it's even easier because of UAI
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    @FrdNwsm and @Dragonspear can share their insights about a blade

    Personally, I've played with a Blade in both BGEE and BG2EE and can say that if you like pre-buffing and becoming almost immune to anything for a period then this is a character you need. I just give him both Kundane and Belm and enjoy ARPs while staying full health against almost anything.

    And in ToB a Blade switches to traps to help his worsening melee effectiveness.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited October 2015
    The THAC0 problem is a myth. Some casual players probably took a look at the rogue and warrior THAC0 progression tables and then decided that all non-warrior types must suck at hitting stuff.
    The reality is that you don't need good base THAC0 to reliably hit most things in the game, in a large part due to the sheer number of magical spells/abilities/items/gear available. You just need to be able to use them. Over the years people have beaten the game with pure mages using their staves to beat the hell out of the big baddies.
    So yeah, its laughable that the issue even comes up for magic users.

    Anyway, as a blade you probably only need a good strength belt, Scarlet+Belm/Kundane, and Offensive Spin to hit most stuff. When you DO need to hit powerful magical monsters with high AC, then one alternative to going all out on short duration buff spells is to simply cast Melf's Minute Meteors (5 attacks per round, hits as +5, very spammable, available as early as BG1 in EE) and then use Offensive Spin while a summoned image (like Simulacrum from a scroll/Vhailor's Helm, or Mislead if you like cheese) uses Enhanced Bard Song. Feel free to quaff potions of heroism/power while you're at it. You can use potions of heroism whenever you want, but I'd save the potions of power for modded bosses.
    For midgame, MMM, Offensive Spin and a potion of heroism should be enough to make your THAC0 comparable to a fighter's. If you don't have UAI yet, use buff spells.

    EDIT:
    For the record, if you're into the maths of the whole thing, end game plain fighters basically have a 13 point THAC0 advantage over bards (progression + Grand Mastery).
    Potions of heroism reduce that by 1, potions of power by 2 (since these potions won't affect the THAC0 of warriors who reach their full THAC0 progression).
    Offensive Spin and one Enhanced Bard Song instance from a simulacrum further reduce that by 6.
    In the end, you're looking at a mere 5-6 point base THAC0 difference from class/kit-related factors. That goes away with spells, and even goes into the Blade's favor if you cheese and conjure multiple images using Enhanced Bard Song. You may not have 10 attacks per round, but you will have a massive supply of 5 ranged attacks per round at maximum damage per hit (+various damage bonuses) by late game.
    It gets even cheesier pre-EE.
    Seriously, one has to really wonder how this myth even came to be.


    Post edited by Nuin on
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 2,072
    Lesson number one: Stick 'em with the pointy end.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    The thing is - your Blade won't fight like Korgan or Minsc. On the other hand, neither of those can cast combat oriented spells such as haste and stoneskin, or use defensive spin to reach 15 AC , or offensive spin for maximum damage.

    The secret is to think of the Blade as a whole, because it is his dual wielding, magic AND special skills that will make him a powerful character. And if you still can't get it right, just use the harp of confusion on the enemies and they'll make a fool of themselves.
  • NeeberNeeber Member Posts: 33
    Thanks for the replies, just power rolled up a new blade charname...
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Well, if you use a Bard in a simplistic plink-plink or chop-chop manner, as if he were a warrior, then indeed his poor THAC0 makes him pretty useless. The thing about Bards (and perhaps especially Blades) is that they're a little complicated to use well, so they're not a good choice for (say) a beginner on his first run. However, once you've got the hang of how to use them effectively, they're very good.

    @Nuin offers some solid suggestions for how to get value out of your Blade. In addition to what @Nuin says, you can continue to get decent melee performance out of a Blade even up to the Final Battle of ToB, if you use the Tensor's Transformation spell. (But always cast it last, after other buffs, because you can't cast anything else while Tensor's Transformation is in effect.) Or (as @Bengoshi suggests) just switch focus to traps, since a Bard gets HLA Traps even though he can't set ordinary Thief Traps.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    edited November 2015
    Even more than a Wizard, a Blade is particularly keen on having a solution to every problem he might come across (cept undead, because that requires taking blunt weapons and I'm called a blade dangit).

    So lets run down the list of weaknesses, where they're encountered, and how a bard, particularly a blade MAY deal with them.

    For the record, as my bard is EBIL!, and I personally hate how scimitars look. I will assume that I'm using a Longsword and Shortsword to the midgame (whichever fits what I'm fighting + kundane), although you'd get more value out of Belm/Kundane.

    Chaaracter Creation weaknesses:
    A blade needs: Strength for melee hit, dex for ranged hit/AC/pickpockets, con (dead men tell no tales.......pun intended), int (available spells, maximum memorized spells, lore), cha (need a base 15 anyway), wisdom (really want a 10 just so that you don't LOSE any valuable lore).

    If you don't wanna roll for days, for that minimum 95 (18, 18, 16, 18, 10, 15) we need to determine a priority for stats, in order to best function as a character.

    1st Dex:
    you need the AC, and it will give you ranged Thac0, which will prove invaluable in the early game.

    My suggestion:18
    2nd Con:
    Its easy, more hit points gives you more flexibility. I'd definitely advise 16 here, although with 18 you could use a certain hand from High Hedge with no penalty. Personally, its an item I never use, so I almost always stop at 16. Also if you start at 18, by the time you finish watchers keep, you can have natural regen. Which is primarily useful when resting or travelling.

    my suggestion:16
    3rd Int:
    While its true, you can get away with less than 18 int and just chug potions for scribing scrolls, its not a minigame I enjoy. Furthermore, depending on your team in BG2, you may need those potions for them. If you grab the int tome in BGEE, you'll be able to learn every spell in the game, rather than being limited to a certain amount per level.

    my suggestion:18
    4th Cha:
    Honestly, this is really only here, because you're forced to have a minimum of 18. If you can't get your strength to 16 or higher however, I'd suggest maxing this out to 18, just for cheaper store prices.

    my suggestion:18, unless you can cap your strength at 18. in that case, leave your cha at 15
    5th Str:
    This one is more flexible than I give it credit for at character creation. Honestly, you could live with 10 strength, put all your extra points into wisdom and be fine. The thing is, by the time you have the proficiency and thac0 hit things (and/or dual wield), you'll be able to cast level 2 spells. One of those spells is strength, which will set your strength to 18/75 for I believe 1 hour in game time. So you'll have enough strength at that point. That said, you won't be able to get 19 strength in BGEE, unless you gain the draw upon holy might bhaalspawn power and cast it afterwards. Otherwise, you're capped at 18/75 until BG2. Also, you're using up valuable level 2 spell slots. Or I consider them valuable, having some of my favorite control and defensive spells in game. Also, lower strength will influence your ranged weapon choices, as you'll be less likely to want throwing weapons.

    my suggestion:18, you're a spawn of the god of murder. Wait around for a 95 to max it. But you really can get away with sub 18 if you don't wanna spend the time
    6th Wis:
    This one is your real dump stat, but that doesn't mean to ignore it. Remember, a blade only gets 1/2 the normal bard lore value (so 5) per level. By 8 wisdom, you could have completely negated any lore. In which case, why choose bard. Furthermore, you'll note above I said you could get away with only 10 strength. If you get the coveted 95+ roll, you could easily choose to put 18 points into wisdom. This will net you a higher early game lore, which means you're spending fewer spell slots or gold on identifying. Only your CLASS lore is cut in half, not your lore bonuses from Int or Wisdom.

    my suggestion:10 At the end of the day, strength gives you a combat stat and frees up spell slots in the level 2 range, and you'll eventually have plenty of ways of identifying items.

    Weapon proficiency:
    Unless you're using Rogue Rebalancing (which, disclaimer, I haven't), you won't be able to start the game dual wielding. The BEST you could do, is put 1 point into your melee weapon and 1 point into Two weapon fighting. But even then, you'll face harsh penalties for doing so.
    Usually I advise new blades to start the game with 1 melee weapon and 1 ranged weapon. And remember up there, where I said your strength really wouldn't matter for combat before you could dual-wield anyway. Well, depending on your ranged weapon choice, that's not completely true.
    I'm going to give 2 different suggestions here, one for low strength and one for high strength.

    my suggestion, high strength build (18):1 Melee weapon 1 daggers (for throwing)

    While your strength will have no influence on whether or not you can hit when throwing these weapons, it will help to determine the damage. 18 strength will give you +1 to hit in melee, and +2 damage in melee and with throwing weapons or slings. (For the record, once you get your strength tome or draw upon holy might and get it to 19, these numbers increase to +3 and +7).

    The reason for daggers over axes or slings (both of which benefit from strength as well), is that daggers have a rate of fire of 2 per round (3 under offensive spin). That's the potential for (1d4+2)x2 or 6-12 without spinning or 18 while spinning (offensive spin maxes your damage rolls if you hit). A throwing axe by comparison does 1d6+2, but only grants you 1 attack per round or two attacks while spinning for 3-8 or 16 (while spinning). Bullets are also 1d4, but they're limited to 1 attack per round, and a lot more people usually want slings anyway.


    my suggestion, low strength (10-17):1 Melee weapon, 1 crossbow (if good) or bow (if evil)

    Personally, if I'm going this road, I prefer the crossbow no matter what. But with an evil party, Dorn and Kagain might both already have the crossbow weapon proficiency. Good or evil, if you're giving yourself the light crossbow of speed, it is the best option, pretty much until firetooth outside watchers keep. And only then if you need a certain enchant to hit. This is a case where we're planning on certain loot (light crossbow of speed), rather than crunching pure numbers for the entire game. Bow is slightly better before that, but the light crossbow isn't too expensive. Besides, now you'll get to use all those enchanted bolts you always sell.


    Level 1-4 (pretty much through the Nashkel mines):

    Weakness: Low armor value/no armor for spell casting

    Solution:
    Lie, cheat and otherwise steal your way to chain mail armor before you leave candlekeep. Yes, by level 2 you could be casting the armor spell on yourself, but we're still running low on spell slots then. Get the chain mail, love the chain mail. In my opinion, you'll want to keep your chain mail until you have at least 3 spell level 1 spell slots, or until you gain the shield amulet from the Faire.

    Which speaking of, I normally don't suggest this, but here is a good idea to get that shield amulet. It frees up a spell slot, and it will allow you to not have to know when to take off your armor for combat.


    Weakness: Limited Spell Selection

    Solution:
    In terms of early spell choices, I'd advise sleep spells at level 1, although depending on your party, keeping a Blind memorized is also a good idea. And at early levels, a Larloch's Minor drain isn't exactly a bad thing. It casts fast like most level 1 spells, and gives you a 4 health buffer to work with. Make sure you have enough sleep and blind memorized first however.

    As this advice goes up to level 4, you'll also gain 1 level 2 spell. This one is a bit trickier, but I'm going to advise web, before any defensive spells, particularly if almost all of your group has a ranged weapon (which most should). Ranged weapons can literally carry you through all of BGEE, and with Web, you can have monsters held in place, which will increase your chance to hit them.


    Weaknesses Level 5-8 (Also known as Level IM ALMOST THERE):
    Honestly, your main weakness here will likely be impatient. You're a blade, but you're likely still sitting in the back, throwing daggers. You want to melee, it's why you're a blade. You can start playing with it now, but don't start dual-wielding yet. Stick to 1 weapon. But please note, you really are almost there. You'll be level 8 in no time.

    Spell advice, levels 5-8
    Between levels 5 and 8, you'll gain 1 more level 1 spell slot, 2 more level 2 spell slots and 1 level 3 spell slot. Here is also where things get tricky/interesting.

    For level 1: Shield (if you're not using the amulet), Protection from Evil (even if you're evil), Blind and magic missile are all solid choices. Remember, once you defeat nimbul, you'll get the find familiar scroll. Learn it, summon one, and be careful with it. They'll become valuable HP and a good companion in a pinch. If it dies though, you lose 1 Con. Try NOT to memorize any identify spells, unless you HAVE to take Edwin with you. With a BGEE Ring of Wizardry, your mage should always have an identify or two memorized, and even then, they'll STILL have more level 1 spells than you. Also, keeping 1 sleep memorized continues to work here, as you can still sleep most mobs even in the cloakwood mines.

    For level 2, your favorite spells should likely be (in no particular order): Web, Blur, Mirror Image and Glitterdust. Melf's Acid Arrow and Aganazzar's Scorcher are both good for damage, but we're faced with too few spell slots here. Honestly, Mirror Image and Blur will be memorized in bulk by level 8. By then, your mage should have plenty of level 2 spells for the other stuff. EXCEPT: there is only 1 glitter dust scroll that I know of in BGEE, and its our job to know everything. So maybe keep one of those for mid/late game swarms.

    For Level 3: Yes, protection from normal arrows is fine, but mirror image and blur should handle those. Yes, you finally get some anti-mage funsies. Yes, Haste and Slow are both awesome and amazing and you should use them. But lets be honest, we have enough disable and defensive stuff. And frankly, level 3 has fireball and lightning bolt (ok fine, and skull trap, but that does NOT look as cool or flashy. We're blades, cool and flashy are part of the package my friends). Also as a bard, you'll always be a higher level than your mage and sorcerer brethren. That means your spells will do more damage. :P YAY DAMAGE! Also flame arrowis a decent single target nuke at level 10. Wraithform, it looks good on paper, a defensive version of Tensers. I'd LIKE to keep one memorized, but with so many good damage spells here it's kinda hard. If you do use it, make sure to cast it AFTER all your other defensive spells and spins are up. Vampiric Touch If you can land it, it'll definitely give you a nice HP boost, to the tune of 5-30 damage/HP by level 10.



    Honorable level 3 mentions: Ghost armor gives some good defense; Melf's minute meteors (will become more important in BG2EE, for hitting enemies immune to your weapons); Remove magic/Dispel Magic (You're higher level will make yours more effective than your mages, but damage!)


    Weaknesses: Gear
    Between level 5 and 8, you'll want to achieve a few things:
    At least a +2 for your mainhand for whatever your melee weapon is.
    If you're using a crossbow, you'll definitely want the light crossbow of speed by now as well.
    If you're using throwing daggers, well honestly, you're kinda SoL until past the return to candlekeep. You'll definitely want to be in melee by the time you're level 8. So far as I know, there is no magical returning throwing dagger in BGEE, and in fact, there aren't any magical throwing daggers period that I remember. But we'll still make use of that specialization.
    If you took daggers, you'll likely want to pick up the dagger of venom, just for fighting casters if nothing else.

    For armor, you'll still be using the shield amulet or your spells, until you get to Baldur's Gate proper. Which is prolly right around level 8. You will need to complete all of Dorn's quests, including just past the Baldur's Gate bridge, in order to earn yourself that sweet, sweet Elven chain.

    Boots: Boots of Avoidance
    Boots of speed, although your actual "tank" (Kagain, Khalid, Ajantis, Jaheria, Yeslick) may be better suited for these in terms of closing the gap. Then again, you're the flashy McBhaalspawn

    Belt: Honestly, your best bet for BGEE is to use (or rotate) your belts that reduce your chain to be hit by slashing by 3 (Golden Girdle), piercing/missile by 3 (Girdle of Piercing, don't turn in the ogre fetish quest), or blunt weapons by 4 (Destroyer of the Hills). By default, either go with piercing (reduced chance to be a bardic pincushion) or Destroyer of teh hills (to offset wearing the elven chain mail).

    Gloves:
    Gauntlets of Ogre Power (if you're not at 18 strength and one of your warriors doesn't need them)
    Bracers of Archery (if you're still using your crossbow or bow a lot)
    Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization (For the melee damages, if you already have 18 or 19 strength, and gives you an increased chance to hit as well)
    Bracers of AC best you can get: You can't get, or don't want to wear elven chain. AC 5 is the best you can get in BGEE, and is slightly better than an armor spell on yourself.

    Rings:
    Ring of protection +1
    Ring of Free Action (Won't work with defensive spin anymore, but you'll still be able to walk through your webs. Which frankly is the point. According to its tooltip, it will negate the effects of boots of speed)
    Claw of Kazgaroth (just remember, it'll reduce your Con by 2 and make it harder for you to survive saves v death. Still a great option).
    Ring of Fire Resistance (if you wanted to use a neck or cloak of protection instead).

    Necklace:
    Horn of Kazgaroth looks like your best option here, provided you're already using a ring of protection.
    I'm not certain whether you can equip it, but the Amulet of Metaspell Influence would be a good choice as well.

    Cloak:
    Cloak of Displacement is a good buy, just know you'll look permanently blurred.
    Algernon's Cloak or Nymph cloak will give you +2 charisma and the ability to cast charm person once per day.

    Helm:
    Sorry this is BGEE, you're SoL until BG2 =(


    Levels 9 and 10 General Advice (really don't have many weaknesses in this particular level range for BGEE):
    1. Max out your gear, I'm not sure if the Cloak of Balduran will stack with your Ring of Protection +2 and your Claw, but its worth trying for the lovely 25% magic resist.
    2. Do Neera's quest, so you can make sure you get a copy of the stoneskin scroll. I'd go through the spell list again, but you'll only get 1 4th level spell, and it really SHOULD be stoneskin. If you don't mind min/maxing some, it might be worth it to rest to memorize a sequencer and keep it loaded up. For the defensive minded, you can use Mirror Image and Blur or Protection from Evil. For the offensive minded, well, I'm sure you can easily figure out many fun pairings.
    3. Its worth doing Rasaad's quest, whether you're good or evil for his cursed belt. If you're evil, it will give you possibly 3 characters with 19 strength (Dorn, PC and Kagain).
    4. Its always helpful to keep a ranged weapon on you in BGEE, you'll never know when a circumstance might call for it. In particular, this is why I sometimes advise a crossbow, even with high strength. You'll eventually have a ton of extra magical bolts. But weapon swapping does get annoying.



    General: Wands
    Also, your bard should learn to love wands. Rarely will you have potions in your quickslot (but still keep them, you'll want to use them), because you will want to have multiple different wands. My wand preferences (in order, favorite to least favorite): Wand of Fire, Wand of Paralysis, Wand of Sleep (the spell is better, but spell slots are valuable), Wand of Lightning. Wand of Monster summoning will likely go to a mage if you're going to use it. Only use wand of frost on things you don't want loot from (no chapter end bosses, or random mobs with juicy magical items. Wand of Fear is one that I underrate, because I don't want things running too far and finding me more things to kill. And I find wand of magic missile to honestly be a waste. Takes too long to be a decent interrupt, damage is too low to be worth using (usually). That said, don't sell it. It can be good for picky off fleeing low health mobs.

    In BG2EE, keeping a wand of breach handy is a great idea. It will likely take over for your wand of sleep.


    General: Weapon Proficiency past character creation
    Usually level 4 and 8 are for Two Weapon Fighting (2 pips), to negate the main hand penalty. At level 12, I usually add another weapon to my table, in my case if I start Longsword and Dagger, I'll pick up shortsword next.

    At level 12, I'd definitely advise either Shortsword or Scimitar if you don't already have one. And running both is considered a great combo for bards (Belm+Kundane and improved haste or offensive spin, does a blender make

    At level 16, although you really don't need to, I grab the final point in TWF. Please note, this point is largely superfluous and you'll likely gain more mileage from picking another weapon to add to your repertoire. Rinse and repeat until you're level 40. As I said, you do NOT need to pick up the last point in TWF, it does nothing for your mainhand thac0, and your off-hand will only hit 1 per round anyway. Gaining it is for completionist sake, it is NOT necessary.


    This is the end of my advice, simply because I haven't had a chance to take Aundrea Dragonspear into BG2EE yet. Although I've beaten BGEE with her, I ended up erasing the save, I wasn't happy with some outcomes. I will be restarting her again shortly. Sorry for the long read, but I hope this helps. If anyone would like, I'll post a similar followup once I finish BG2EE and ToB.

    Edit: Just realized this was the BG2EE forum, so all this advice is relatively moot here. In the morning I'll copy this and post it in the BGEE forum. It'll be more useful there =) It'll help when people have their own blade questions there.
    Post edited by Dragonspear on
  • SupremoSupremo Member Posts: 2
    I did this four years ago on a No Reload run with a maximum install of SCSII, RR, the works. Blades are very nearly overpowered, simply because Offensive Spin is pretty much Kai without the drawbacks.

    Here's my YouTube playlist from a non-EE BG2 ToB run I did four years ago using a Blade.



    Each major battle starts the same way: buff with all the defensive spells I have, Abjuration detente with enemy mages, wait for them to lose spells, then let loose with OS. The Kanggax battle was particularly tense because it's near impossible to have him empty his spellbook.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited November 2015
    Odd approach. I don't normally play my bards like dedicated F/Ms unless I'm playing unmodded BG2.

    Edit:
    Ah, Rogue Rebalancing. I see.
  • SupremoSupremo Member Posts: 2
    edited November 2015
    Hi, @Nuin.

    I last played BGII four years ago, before work took much of my time. I just very recently got BGIIEE and I'm a bit rusty both in memory and skill (currently running Solo NR Assassin as I don't really play anything else but Solo AND NR), but the RR this time around seems... tame.

    RR back then quite literally turned the Blade into a whirling dervish of destruction. Scribe Scrolls was a bit OP since I can just scribe any spell, UAI allowed me to equip Carsomyr and go crazy with OS with it, and there was this spell that deafens with no save (unique to Bards). Only Watcher's Keep proved to be difficult, but even that turned out to be easy when you look past the traps and shifting immunities.

    Partly the reason why I stopped the above run was because the Bard (and Blade in particular) was extremely powerful to the point that there was no real challenge anymore. I doubt Ascension and all the Tactics-level SCSII would have changed the near-domination the Blade demonstrated.

    I might try it in BGIIEE, but it will always be the same, I suppose.
  • GEPGEP Member Posts: 5
    I'd like to ask some tips how to beat Melissan for the first getgo.
    Yes, I can trap the soul out of her for the rest of the story (playing vanilla BG), but WTH I must do to kill her the first time?

    Btw, the thac0-problem is real for like the first half of BG2 and the majority of BG1.
    The weapon progression in the trilogy is best onehanded weapon + shield through BG1 (shortswords work best) -> twohanded weapons for BG2 (quaterstaves and Carsomyr) -> two weapon style in ToB (axe of unyielding -> short sword of mask + crom fayer).

    I have a crapload of onetime items, so come up with anything.
    The problem might be I'm crap when it comes to spell containers, contignencies and sequencers, and if I'd load all of them I'd achieve an instant win, but after the strougle against Abazigal (I could barely hit the human form, didn't even tried the dragon), I just know I won't be able to plump Melissan.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @GEP

    I'd like to suggest scrolling back some to my comment earlier in this thread for BGEE.

    As far as BG2EE and ToB, it is advised that you use at least 1 of (Belm/Kudane) and preferrably both for full steel blenderability. That would give you 4 APR + 1/2 APR possible from Gauntlets of Extraordinary specialization.

    Which means you could gain up to 9APR as a blade with Imp Haste (although you couldn't use offensive spin).

    The big thing is, you'll at least want 1 speed weapon in your off-hand, while I think main hand is a lil more generous.

    Foebane, The Answerer (ToB) and Blackrazor are all decent main hands for your blade. You also have Spectral Brand, Hindo's Doom, Usuno, and Scarlet Ninja-to as possible main hands come ToB.

    In order to make up the thac0 difference, after you have all your buffs/contingencies prepared and setup. Before you wade into boss level combat, you'll want to pop Tenser's Transformation, which will give you Thac0 equivalent to a fighter of equal level. This should solve most of your problems hitting at that point.

    One reason I like The Answerer in this build, is that you can utilize Offensive Spin/Improved Haste and Tensers, so that even if the Big Bad is still alive when said buffs wear off, you've removed most of their defensive capability. (Disclaimer: not saying thats the only weapon, and with other weapons you can have them dead before it matters. Trying to end the forum argument on that weapon before it starts.)

    Also, I think Crom Faeyr would be better off on one of your fighters. If you start with 18 strength at character creation in BGEE, you can have either 22 or 23 strength naturally (if you go evil in hell, lum, deck of many things and BGEE tome).

    Anyway, I'll be getting back to my evil blade soon to run alongside my good cavalier. So expect more funsies to follow.
  • GEPGEP Member Posts: 5
    @Dragonspear Thx, but I won't waste time with a mundane +2 sword and its pathetic +1 APR, thank you. Those stuff are even more overrated then Carsomyr.
    Foebane is a very specialized weapon against the final-pool Solar, and for a bard who has only a handful of points, is no-use.
    Blackrazor doesn't do the slightest thing aside giving the immunities.
    The Answerer sounds nice, the problem is to stay alive long enough until it makes Melissan suffer enough. Btw, how long the AC-penalty of the Answerer lasts? Magic Resistance effects dealing the penalty or not?

    Finally bard can't start with 18 STR. The realisticly optimal stats for bard are:
    13/18/16/18/10/15, and even this requires you keep rerolling for 30-60 minutes. I had 1 extra point above this, so my STR started 14, and ended up 19, 24 with Girdle of Fire Giant strength. Hm, I didn't rly notice my STR got this high, thx!
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    edited November 2015
    GEP said:

    @Dragonspear Thx, but I won't waste time with a mundane +2 sword and its pathetic +1 APR, thank you. Those stuff are even more overrated then Carsomyr.
    Foebane is a very specialized weapon against the final-pool Solar, and for a bard who has only a handful of points, is no-use.
    Blackrazor doesn't do the slightest thing aside giving the immunities.
    The Answerer sounds nice, the problem is to stay alive long enough until it makes Melissan suffer enough. Btw, how long the AC-penalty of the Answerer lasts? Magic Resistance effects dealing the penalty or not?

    Finally bard can't start with 18 STR. The realisticly optimal stats for bard are:
    13/18/16/18/10/15, and even this requires you keep rerolling for 30-60 minutes. I had 1 extra point above this, so my STR started 14, and ended up 19, 24 with Girdle of Fire Giant strength. Hm, I didn't rly notice my STR got this high, thx!

    Equipment:
    Belm is +2 but Scarlet is +3. I think, though, that you should reconsider since +APR is a key element of playing the blade as a sorta F/M melee. 3 or 4 APR plus off.spin will take you through most random battles, and with IH and tenser's, you can dish out the pain in the tougher battles. Personally I prefer the wonderous gloves over the gloves of ext.spec. though I guess you can equip the Wond.gloves, spend the spell slots on buffs, then equip the gloves of ext.spec before battle (as with Dak'kon's blade, unconfirmed though, I haven't tested it myself). I like spectral brand for main hand mainly, but switching as needed depending on the type of enemies.

    Stats:
    Bards can of course start with 18 STR, stating otherwise is just plain incorrect. Getting a ~90-ish roll, like you state above, is usually doable in 5 minutes. Getting above 90 though can take some time.
    You don't need 18 INT, so dump it down a bit, put it into STR and aim for ~92 points to get 18 STR base. It matters more in the early game though ofc since you eventually get good items to bump the STR, but it enables you to use AC belts instead to increase survivability.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @GEP, @Skatan - For SoA, a +2 speed weapon is great in the off-hand, but for ToB it's not so advantageous because +2 is generally not good enough to hit the serious ToB enemies. Of course the speed weapon gives the extra +1 APR to the main-hand weapon, but the off-hand weapon's own strike will usually be a useless miss. Therefore I reckon that in ToB you're usually better off using an off-hand weapon which has higher enchantment of its own and some valuable bonus-effect, i.e. giving up one main-hand strike in return for a more effective off-hand strike and the bonus-effect. Typically on a dual-wielder, I'll off-hand Crom Faeyr (a +5 weapon so it hits very well, and gives STR 25 which boosts both weapons), but if someone else is already using CF then Defender of Easthaven is a good off-hand weapon (+3 and gives 20% damage reduction), or (for a Blade or Swashbuckler or Fighter/Thief with UAI) the Scarlet Ninja-To (+3 and keeps the +1 APR like Belm/Kundane and has a chance of poisoning the enemy). Situationally there are other weapons which might be useful in the off-hand for some other bonus effect (e.g. when level-drain is the danger), but the ones I've named are the off-hand weapons which I've found most often useful.

    There several great +4/+5 weapons for the main-hand, but @GEP, you're seriously under-rating Foebane, it's an excellent weapon against most enemies.
    GEP said:

    The Answerer sounds nice, the problem is to stay alive long enough until it makes Melissan suffer enough. Btw, how long the AC-penalty of the Answerer lasts? Magic Resistance effects dealing the penalty or not?

    Both the AC penalty and the Magic Resistance penalty last 4 rounds. And yes, it's a decent choice for a Blade's main hand, I've done that with success.
    Skatan said:

    Personally I prefer the wonderous gloves over the gloves of ext.spec. though I guess you can equip the Wond.gloves, spend the spell slots on buffs, then equip the gloves of ext.spec before battle (as with Dak'kon's blade, unconfirmed though, I haven't tested it myself).

    Yes, you can do that, I've tested it. However, I usually find that there's someone else in the party who can benefit from the Gloves of Extraordinary Specialization, so I tend to just leave the Bard wearing the Wondrous Gloves rather than swapping them in and out. (Of course, if you were soloing or had no-one else with a great use for GoES, then this swapping-around would be a good plan, just as it is with Dak'kon's Zerth Blade.)

    As for the stats argument ... of course a Blade ought to be maxing (or at least nearly maxing) his/her STR (and DEX), because the whole point of the Blade kit is to build a Bard who is good in physical combat. Without high STR and DEX, there's no point being a Blade, you'd be better off as a Skald or Jester or even unkitted Bard. A Blade doesn't need high WIS, and can also afford not to have maxed INT (because there are Potions of Genius for when you need to learn more spells), so it doesn't demand an unfeasibly-high stat roll.

    As a stats example, my own current run (still in BG1ee) happens to be a Blade. I was rolling for around 90 (as I usually do), but I got lucky and a 94 came up, so I gave her STR 18, DEX 18, CON 15, INT 18, WIS 8, CHA 17. After Tomes, she'll finish BG1ee with STR 19, DEX 19, CON 16, INT 19, WIS 11, CHA 18. After various stat-changing actions in BG2ee, she'll probably end the game with STR 19, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 19, WIS 11, CHA 20 (because most of the benefits from the Machine, etc., will more usefully be applied to boosting her companions). Those are pretty-much-perfect stats for a Blade. However, if I hadn't had quite such a good roll, then the stat where I'd have given her less points would have been INT (and in that case, she'd have been using Potions of Genius when necessary).

    @GEP - in ToB, don't overlook the power of Enhanced Bard Song. Unlike ordinary Bard song, the Enhanced song is terrifically powerful. It can often be very worthwhile for your Bard (even a Blade who can fight quite well) to stand back and sing, because the Enhanced song really helps your companions to chop the enemy to pieces - boosting your whole party's THAC0 by 4 while simultaneously penalising every enemy's AC by 4 (and no save!) means that your warriors will hit much more reliably, even against the ToB bosses (and specifically including the Final Battle).
  • GEPGEP Member Posts: 5
    Uhm, something seems not clear for you guys.

    1) I don't need advice against general monsters. I did all, thank you very much, and I sincerely believe I did better than Scarlet Ninja Toe in offhand. Especially for the BG2 part (lvl10-30), where twohanded weapons were way better than any other option.

    2) Thank you very much, but starting with 14 STR served me on acceptable level, so no need to worry about it. I'll definitely not bother re-playing the trilogy as I wear STR-belt anyway landing me 24 STR currently.
    Reasons for starting 10 WIS was to not loose on lore at the start, and I not wanted to rely on potions when learning spells, so 18 INT was needed. Way more than STR. What again not an issue as you can wear Fire Giant Belt topped with Evil Wrath.
    CHA got dumped as I did not need Keldorn's armor.

    3) This is a SOLO playthrough, so Bard Song - no matter how enhanced - won't help. Magic Flute on the other hand I have (I always forget to memorize anti-fear, and never bother globe of invulnerability).

    4) I AM AT MELISSAN. I ask advice specifically to beat Amelyssan at the FIRST time with a rogue. My current class is Blade. It has no party.
    I can put up a Belm/SNT if I have to, but that's still not Greater Whirl Wind of a barbarian, so something more would be welcomed.
    Fill me up.

    My end-stats are:
    19 (24 with belt)/21/17/20/14/17.
    Deck of Many Things gave STRENGTH, not anything else.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Tenser's Transformation should give you about a -10 bonus to THACO, enough to hit Melissan reliably. You won't be able to cast spells, but having other buffs active before using it means you won't need to cast any after TT. SCT with Improved Haste will give you 4 APR with the Answerer, which will make Melissan easier to hit. This should be enough to get past the first phase, and you have traps for the next phases.

    And for what it's worth, the Enhanced Bard Song is strong even in a solo game, since your clones from Mislead/Project Image/Simulacrum can sing it for you. Your bard can benefit from that song; not just your party.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited November 2015
    @GEP - well you didn't tell us that you were soloing, so you can't blame us for not realising that. Yes, obviously the Song wouldn't be helpful in that case ... except when you have a chance to cast a Mislead, and let your clone do the singing! (But that's not an option if you've already cast Tenser's Transformation.)

    First fight against Melissan, as a solo Blade ... hmmm ... I've never done that, but I'll describe what I'd try. Tenser's Transformation has to be the key to this. Arrange your spell-book to be mostly buffs, because low-level and mid-level attack spells aren't going to be much use in that environment. You're probably even higher-level than she is, so Remove Magic is likely to work (after Tenser's Transformation wears off), so have a couple of those memorised, but carry a Wand of Spell Striking and a Wand of Reversal to strip her buffs, and also a Wand of Resurrection (to give yourself a full Heal when you're hurt badly). Wear the Cloak of Mirroring, drink some protective potions, cast some buffs (specifically including Spell Immunity: Abjuration and Spell Shield, to hinder her from Dispelling your buffs too quickly), cast Tenser's Transformation, and go through the door. I'd probably wield the Answerer main-hand with the Scarlet Ninja-To off-hand, but various other combinations (e.g. Foebane or Flail of Ages main-hand, or Defender of Easthaven off-hand) would also be credible choices, and you might want to swap weapons mid-combat (e.g. elemental damage from the Flail of Ages punches through her Stoneskin to disrupt her next cast, but switch back to the Answerer when her Stoneskin is gone). Trigger Offensive Spin when the fighting starts, trigger it again when it runs out before the fight is over, and good luck.
    Post edited by Gallowglass on
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @GEP

    A word of advice, if you plan on staying around this forum. Attacking and insulting people trying to offer helpful, constructive advice for you, isn't a great idea. As a general rule, this is one of the more helpful forums I've ever visited on the internet. With people always willing to pitch in when someone encounters a problem.

    With regards to the APR weapon in the offhand, and why it's further suggested:

    @Lord_Tansheron pointed out that at worst, you're trading an offhand attack for a mainhand attack.

    If you cast improved haste with an APR weapon (thus giving you 3 APR), you'll go from 2 Main hand and 1 offhand attacks, to 5 main hand and 1 offhand attack. As someone else noted, tensers will further give you a huge boost to Thac0, (in the realm of reducing it by 10).

    Re: Wonderous Gloves v GoES: I prefer them on my warriors as well, I was just offering it as an option.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    APR offhand weapons are inherently unbeatable by non APR-OHs in terms of straight damage output ... Even in the worst case scenario (i.e. OH completely useless) you lose the OH attack, but gain +1 MH attack - all you do is trade an OH attack for a MH attack, which is always a net gain.

    No, that's not necessarily so.

    In particular, it's often not so if your OH weapon is Crom Faeyr, because the STR 25 effect (assuming that you don't already have STR 25 by some other method) makes your MH weapon significantly better for both THAC0 and damage (quite apart from CF being a very good weapon in its own right). That can often be more advantageous than an extra MH attack (at a worse THAC0 and damage), especially when the OH speed weapon stands little chance of hitting (i.e. later in the game) whereas CF is more likely to score an OH hit.

    I haven't thought of a way to develop any simple calculation for the balance of advantage between CF and a speed weapon in the OH, because the change in hit-probability is affected by numerous situational factors, such as what STR you have without CF, what buffs and HLAs are applicable, other THAC0-modifying equipment (e.g. gauntlets), your enemy's AC and resistances/immunities, etc. But from both experience and common sense, the later you are in the game, the more generally likely it is that more reliable hits with better damage have the edge over an extra attack which is more likely to miss (or be blocked by an immunity). Thus I'll stand by the advice I gave in my earlier post, i.e. that speed weapons (especially the +2 ones) decline in utility in ToB.

    In SoA, of course I use OH speed weapons for a dual-wielder. In ToB, the Scarlet Ninja-To can certainly continue to be useful for those character classes which can wield it, but for other classes I generally find that Crom Faeyr is a better choice than continuing to use Belm or Kundane.
    Dragonspear said:

    @Lord_Tansheron pointed out that at worst, you're trading an offhand attack for a mainhand attack.

    But see above - that's misleadingly simplistic.
    Dragonspear said:

    If you cast improved haste with an APR weapon (thus giving you 3 APR), you'll go from 2 Main hand and 1 offhand attacks, to 5 main hand and 1 offhand attack.

    No, actually Improved Haste would make it 4 main-hand and 2 off-hand attacks - SFAIK, it's the only thing which breaks the limit of 1 APR for the off-hand weapon. Sometimes that can make a noticeable difference (such as when using an OH speed weapon which can't hit the enemy).
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    edited November 2015
    Gallowglass said:

    No, that's not necessarily so.

    In particular, it's often not so if your OH weapon is Crom Faeyr, because the STR 25 effect (assuming that you don't already have STR 25 by some other method) makes your MH weapon significantly better for both THAC0 and damage

    If you read carefully, I specifically mentioned CF (and similar buff-type weapons) as possible exceptions. However, that, too, is not a universal rule. There are scenarios in which CF is not better than an APR-OH in the OH, and of course CF is also a VERY good weapon to be wielding in the MH anyway as the combination of both 25 STR *and* extra APR is extremely effective.

    Also note that CF is one of the best weapons in the game, arguably one of the top 2 (the other being FoA+5). There really would have to be quite some contention in order to not use it in the MH with an APR-OH. Not that this can't happen, of course, or even not be the optimal way - setups do vary by a lot. But overall I'd say it's a rare case.

    Outside of CF, there are *very* few weapons that can compete in terms of damage. Even with CF it's reasonably close.
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