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Classes Reborn Mod



  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I appreciate the positive input, which def is motivation to keep going. If anyone wants to assist further, and not a big thing, but I basically laid out the proficiency spreadsheet and it is way too much to cut and paste here, but if anyone wants to see it, I can post it and they can give me thoughts on it and the runon sentence I just wrote.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I am also thinking about the following:

    Right now, I have willpower as a limiter for divine spells and reflex as a limiter for arcane spells. Fortitude is just pretty much for bonuses. I am thinking about making it as a limiter for strength damage bonus. Meaning, if you have 18 str, but just 1 point in fortitude, you would receive +4 THAC0, but just +1 Dam. This would be an interesting way to a) limit early damage while still leaving a bonus with THAC0 and b) a late game limitation for non-fighting classes as they can only get so high in fortitude. It would make proficiency point distribution even more important.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Just tested the script of adding and removing spell slots based on Wisdom/Willpower proficiency and it works nicely. The only issue I have come across is if the script is called twice in close proximity to each other.

    It works as the following:
    Wisdom changes OR Prof points in Willpower changes:
    Run script to remove all spells except the one you get at level up and then run a script to add new spell slots.

    Two issues with this. First, if your wisdom changes while you have spells memorized...they evaporate. That is one reason why I will not add wisdom increasing spells that have short durations. Not viable.

    Second, if your Wis increases and you gain a level, rush through and add a proficiency point within 10 seconds of each other, then everything goes to crap, and there really isn't anything I can do about that. Fortunately, that circumstance is unlikely to happen often if at all. Just the problem with playing with scripts.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    (That demonstrates why I try to limit my use of scripting to get things done with these games...)

    But yeah the chances of a player gaining a level within seconds of a stat change are pretty slim, methinks.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I actually thought about a fix for it.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Filled out the basis of how spells will be implemented. Thank god for spreadsheets.

    The main pivot point will be level 18 when you make your second class change. That is when level based spell accumulation starts to repeat itself. Casters only get 1 spell per level base until they hit level 18.

    Divine Spells will look like this:
    Clerics and Druids will gain a new spell level every 2 or 3 levels repeating.
    1 1
    3 2
    6 3
    8 4
    11 5
    13 6
    16 7

    Paladins and Rangers will gain it every 3 levels up to level 5 spells, starting at level 2.
    2 1
    5 2
    8 3
    11 4
    14 5

    Starting at 18, they will get an additional spell in the same manner that they received them the first 17 levels.

    Willpower/Wisdom will supply the rest of the spells. For each point in Willpower, assuming you have enough corresponding Wisdom, you get bonus spells.

    1 1 First 1 Second
    2 2 Firsts 2 Seconds 1 Third 1 Fourth
    3 3 Firsts 3 Seconds 2 Thirds 2 Fourths 1 Fifth 1 Sixth
    4 4 Firsts 4 Seconds 3 Thirds 3 Fourths 2 Fifths 2 Sixths 1 Seventh
    5 Continues the pattern
    6 Continues the pattern
    7 Continues the pattern

    Arcane spells will work similarly, but since there are more levels, 4&5 and 6&7 have been lumped together for bonuses based on Reflex/Intelligence. Also, the bonus is at half the rate for Wisdom.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    edited February 2015
    So, you may not like this, because it would involve a fair amount of work and you've already put a bunch of work into this, but I'll mention it anyway for the sake of discussion (Prepare for Wall Of Text)

    The way this mod works, with automatic kit-switches at certain levels, opens up an opportunity to revolutionize character development in this game. Specifically, you could introduce a whole new level of player choices, by moving most CLAB abilities (indeed, even hard-coded class abilities) into the HLA system and starting HLAs being granted from level 2. Here are some recent thoughts I wrote on the idea, with a link to an older thread that's a bit more detailed.

    Essentially, you could have class an kit abilities available as HLAs, along with a host of more generic or universal abilities, something like non-weapon proficiencies.

    Take for example a thief: at level 1 you are very unskilled. At level two you could choose from among the following abilities:
    - * strength training: STR +1
    - * acrobatics: DEX +1
    - * conditioning: CON +1
    - * intense study: INT +1
    - * meditation: WIS +1
    - * etiquette: CHA +1
    - * widely read: lore +20
    - * marathoner: movement rate bonus
    - * artful dodger: breath save bonus
    - * fortitude: death & polymorph save bonus
    - * iron will: spells & wands save bonus
    - ** observation: increas detect traps and detect illusion
    - ** stealth: increase hide in shadows and move silently
    - ** prestidigitation: increase pick pockets/pick locks/remove traps
    - # trapper: grant use of Set Traps ability
    - ## advanced trapper: more use of traps
    - # herbal knowledge: grant use of basic Poison Weapon ability
    - ## toxicity: more advanced poison ability
    - # archery: bonus to missile weapons
    - ## marksman: gain called shot ability
    - # backstabbing: bonus to backstab multiplier
    - ## crippler: further bonus to backstab multiplier
    - # swashbuckling: bonus to single-weapon style and dual-wielding
    - ## fencer: bonus to AC and melee THAC0

    Abilities with a * denote univeral non-weapon proficiencies. Those with ** are class-specific and infinitely repeatable. Those with # are class-specific and prerequisites for the more advanced abilities (the ones with ##). The # abilities could also be repeatable, and the advanced ## abilities would have level requirements so you couldn't take them at level 3.

    So that's 24 abilities, a full HLA screen. 5 of them are more advanced class-specific ones that lead down the path of specialization. At some point, maybe level 6 or so, you do a kit switch, and depending on which advanced skills the player chose (just set some variables or something) they will have a choice between 2-4 mid-level specialized kits. Or maybe just one, if they only advance one specialty. But it will be dependent on how they develop, instead of just a dialogue choice.

    Each such mid-level kit has a new HLA table with the universal powers, the repeatable powers, and the basic powers from the other kits, but also more advanced powers within its specialty. People who specialize in poisons can maybe eventually learn to brew potions; people who become good trappers can eventually learn funky magical traps. Thieves who focus on combat can eventually get more attacks, better THAC0, better AC, etc. There could also be a 'generalist' choice with the same low-level HLA table, if the player chose mostly universal skills and wants to develop class-specific skills later.

    Your existing kit structure will be a skeleton, a framework, but players would have much more choice in how their character develops. I'm pretty sure this could be done for each class. You could even use this system to entirely replace the way wizard specialists work - make them *take* those extra spells, at the expense of taking other abilities like metamagic sequencers or scroll/potion/wand creation, etc.

    Okay I'm running out of steam here, so I guess discuss among yourselves.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I had considered doing that back when I was working on the older BGO mod, but wanted to work on class specific abilities more. I am considering implementing it as a feat system for low level bonuses, but that is down the road.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I have fleshed out what the Monk class is going to primarily look like.

    Monks are very disciplined people. The path they go down they focus on with all their ability until it is time to choose a new/altered path. They will not get any proficiency points to distribute. Proficiencies are gained at certain levels.

    Monks main ability is "Ki". They start out with 1 usage, they gain an additional usage at each class change. Additional Ki is determined by their Willpower proficiency (which is governed by Wisdom/Charisma). Each point in Willpower will give them another Ki ability. Thus, a monk who has maxed Willpower and both class changes wiill have 10 usages a day of their Ki. Ki is a resource for monks to use their special abilities. A Quivering Palm or a Lay on Hands counts as 1 Ki. Monks will gain new Ki abilities periodically, and special class Kis as they chance class.

    Reflex governs their AC versus Missiles bonus as well. The more stars in Refelx, the better the AC.

    Fortitude governs their movement speed. Each point in fortitude increases their movement speed.

    Monk (Main class):
    Unarmed- 3 stars
    Unarmored- 3 stars
    Fortitude- 2 stars
    Reflex- 2 stars
    Willpower- 2 stars

    Those proficiencies will be earned over the first 6 levels. Monks then must choose a path. Martial Artist or Samurai.

    Unarmed- 5 stars
    Thrown- 4 stars
    Ranged- 4 stars
    Unarmored- 5 stars
    Fortitude- 4 stars
    Reflex- 4 stars
    Willpower- 4 stars

    Unarmed- 3 stars
    Quarterstaff (bad animations be damned)- 4 stars
    Largeblade- 4 stars
    Twohanded- 4 stars
    Dual Wield- 4 stars
    Unarmored- 5 stars
    Fortitude- 4 stars
    Reflex- 4 stars
    Willpower- 4 stars

    Martial Artists can choose two paths. Sensei or Ninja.

    Unarmed- 7 stars
    Thrown- 5 stars
    Ranged- 4 stars
    Unarmored- 7 stars
    Fortitude- 5 stars
    Reflex- 6 stars
    Willpower- 7 stars

    Unarmed- 5 stars
    Thrown- 7 stars
    Ranged- 7 stars
    Unarmored- 7 stars
    Fortitude- 6 stars
    Reflex- 6 stars
    Willpower- 6 stars

    Samurai can choose 2 paths. Kensai or a Bo Master.

    Unarmed- 3 stars
    Quarterstaff (bad animations be damned)- 4 stars
    Largeblade- 7 stars
    Twohanded- 4 stars
    Dual Wield- 7 stars
    Unarmored- 7 stars
    Fortitude- 7 stars
    Reflex- 5 stars
    Willpower- 6 stars

    Bo Master:
    Unarmed- 3 stars
    Quarterstaff (bad animations be damned)- 7 stars
    Largeblade- 4 stars
    Twohanded- 7 stars
    Dual Wield- 4 stars
    Unarmored- 7 stars
    Fortitude- 6 stars
    Reflex- 7 stars
    Willpower- 5 stars

    Monks will likely only reach 3/4 attacks (+1 for DW) with weapons, but 4 (or maybe 4.5) with unarmed.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    wolpak said:

    I am considering implementing it as a feat system for low level bonuses, but that is down the road.

    That was actually my original thought; but the HLA system gives you a feat every level and having tons of feats *plus* class abilities gets to be too much. So I took away even very fundamental class abilities and made them optional, and the idea evolved to what I described above.

    However, I also figured out a way to implement feats that can be chosen ever other level, or every three levels, etc. You need to create shadow kits that are identical to the normal ones, except they don't get any HLAs. Then you shuffle the PC back and forth between the normal kit and the shadow kit via CLAB effects.

    So you get a feat at level 2, but also get switched to the shadow kit. Then the shadow kit might switch you back to the main kit at level 4, and you would get another feat at level 5. In this way you can control the frequency of feats, and it can vary by kit.

    I've long wanted to make that feat/perk system as a standalone mod, but it would be crazy with heavily modder games with lots of mod kits. I'd need to duplicate every kit the way Refinements does; using them together would multiply the number of kits by six, sending you over the limit in a heartbeat.

    (Damn, it might still be worth doing though. Maybe do it along with a "Refinements Revised" mod that eliminates that mod's kit multiplication...)

    With Classes Reborn, though, you strictly control the number of kits, so you could totally implement feats that way.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    While I control the number of kits, there are still a tone. 11 base classes have 22 first tier kits and 44 second tier kits. I haven't looked at the HLA system really at all, but maybe there is a scripting workaround.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Speaking of which, scripting work arounds, maybe you could help me with the best method of having Charisma determine the # of followers you have. Its a pretty easy script, check charisma modifier, make them leave the party. You can get them to rejoin, but they will immediately leave. I guess I could add some interesting dialog like, wtf, you have no personality, I am sooooo outta here.

    Anyway, a simple 1 for 1 isn't ideal. Meaning, you'd need a charisma of 22 to have 6 followers. I am debating on modifying it based on reputation as well meaning, maybe each point in charisma equals +/-3 reputation points (depending on the ethos of your companion).

    So, a very high charisma player can keep evils and good together no problem at any reputation. Conversely, a high reputation but low charisma player can have 6 follower. Maybe I hashed it out properly here...i'll have to throw it into my spreadsheet.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,466
    Only 77 kits? That's nothing. Consider my current IWDEE install: 41 kits in the vanilla game, plus 6 from Divine Remix, 3 from Song & Silence, 6 from Frosty Journey, 5 from Monastic Orders, 15 from Scales of Balance, 6 SoB multiclass kits, and 12 from the SoB kensai component. That's 94 total.

    It would be super easy to make doubles of your 77 kits and setting up the kit-switch CLAB abilities. The hard part would be designing all of the feats and hand-tailoring the 77 HLA tables.


    Determining # of followers based on Charisma would be amazing. I would just make it CHA/3, so you could have one loyal follower at 3 CHA, and a full party at 15. Unfortunate I have zero clue as to how you might implement such a thing... :(

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    I am considering this type of mechanic. I hope someone looks at this and gives me input, because I'd love to see how someone else views this.

    First, I want to have a modified way for Charisma to effect the number of followers. You are charismatic, well, people want to follow you. If not, then screw off. However, if you have a bad charisma and are "reknown" then you will get followers as well. We all know the standard reputation system is broken. It rewards being good with being well known and the implication is that evil people do not want to be liked. The other failing part is that it is static. Nothing changes over time unless you make it so. Ask Justin Beiber or Pete Rose how their reputation has remained the same.

    So, first, I am thinking of an overriding system. At 10 reputation, completely unknown, you can have as many followers as your charisma allows. A 20 charisma = 5 followers. People will follow you despite not knowing you.

    An increase OR decrease in reputation will allow for additional followers. Each point of reputation modifies your charisma bonus. At 18 charisma (+4) you can have 4 followers max. If your rep goes up or down 1 point, you are slightly heard about around town, and you can now have 5 followers. Thus, at 20 or at 1 reputation, you can ALWAYS have 5 followers, despite your charisma being 3.

    Now, while it may seem counter intuitive that you could have space for a good aligned character at 3 rep, their happiness is also a factor. Maybe they want to join you to see what all the hubbub is about, and they find out you kill babies and rape barn animals and they are outties.

    The second factor, and I am spitballing because I haven't tested it, is non-persistent reputation. The top looks ok, but once you hit a certain rep, who cares about charisma? You have max followers. Wait wait wait a second there. Over time, your deeds, good or bad, become forgotten...and reputation starts to slowly fade into obscurity. A follower might say, "hey, I know the lead singer is a DB, but I was making bank being famous, but now that nobody cares about our music, I am going solo."

    So, I plan on having reputation slowly move to 10 over time. You become less good if you don't maintain good and you become less bad if you don't maintain bad.

    I hope that makes sense.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    Determining # of followers based on Charisma would be amazing. I would just make it CHA/3, so you could have one loyal follower at 3 CHA, and a full party at 15. Unfortunate I have zero clue as to how you might implement such a thing... :(

    It's actually not that hard, and it looks like my last post about the implementation will work.

    I already have base CheckStat(CHR) in place that checks the level of Player1's charisma and then sets P1CHRMOD to whatever value it should be (IE, if CHR is 16, it sets P1CHRMOD to 3).

    With that in place, a simple check against Player1's P!CHRMOD for Player 5 (since, lets say 16 Charisma means 3 follows max, means you +3 = 4). So, in the main script, it is always checking for P1CHRMOD to be 3 or less for Player5. If it is, they are forced to leave. So, it isn't a perfect method of managing the number of possible slots. What it does is remove players if they shouldn't be in the party.

    I just tested the dropping reputation and it works nicely. Sadly, it displays the standard reputation message, and I am not sure if I can change that to something like, "Your popularity is fading".

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    edited February 2015
    So, I am going to make a baseline of 1 week and reduces by 1 day per 2 points in reputation. The people of Baldur's gate ask, what have you done for me lately after 1 week or less. Reputation drops and the counter starts up again. IE, if your rep is 1, 2 or 19, 20 after 3 days, it will move 1 point closer to 10. At 3, 4 or 17, 18 it will move after 4 days.

    Once your rep goes up, the counter starts at that time. If you leave and come back (save and restart) the counter restarts too. Though, I may find a small work around for that to limit to a day or something.

    Post edited by wolpak on
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 958
    edited February 2015
    Not to say that it can't be done, but the HLA system is not nearly as helpful as one would like.

    If characters advance more than one level at a time, they might lose access to abilities that they should otherwise have access to (for example, if characters got an option at 2nd level to choose specialization in a weapon) and I started BG2 with this set-up, they would get the HLA point but would be given the options available at 7th level or whatever. (I may not be articulating the idea properly, but pretty much, unless the character advanced one level at a time, there would be problems in using HLA due to the level-based nature of the table.)

    My solution to this was to externalize it to an invisible creature dialogue. This has the benefit of being very robust and modular while also not breaking due to level advancement being too fast or too slow.

    I suppose this issue can be avoided by having every "round" of features be its own kit, but then you have a massive amount of kits that only exist to provide a single level option.

  • jethrojethro Member Posts: 81
    @wolpak just ran across this thread and it looked super interesting. Wonder how it all turned out? Also curious how you did the Wisdom AC bonus thing...been wanting that (along with using Dex instead of Str for attack bonuses) for my monk, but I don't know my thumb from my nether-region when it comes to modding bg. Heck I didn't even think it was even possible.

  • aaasdfaaasdf Member Posts: 2
    Hi guys. As I am more-less newbie in a game, I have problem that combat don't fit me in a way that casters have a lot of variety of spells and combinations to use in combat, but melee classes, barb in particular have only autoattack, and I don't like it that way. So, is there any possibility to have high level spells on low levels, and/or some mod that make melee classes have special attacks on low levels, as this one i found. Mod:

    Help me pl0x, and thx ahead!

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