Skip to content

Baldur's Gate vs Amn

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
in Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition
So, we all know that the two almost went to war. For someone who knows the background better than I, what are the militaries of both nations like? If they went to war, what would most likely have happened?

Comments

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Amn would probably win, Baldur's gate is an independant city state whereas amn is a huge country with lots of wizards. then again if the lord's alliance helps BG would be in with a chance.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    What is the lord's alliance?

    And for Amn, how much control over the wizards do they really have? Aren't their wizards there mostly to keep all of the wandering wizards in check?

    And wasn't Amn being invaded around the same time by the...Scythiian...horde...or whatnot? I remember the town criers talking about that, as well as the monstrous deserters in the Umar Hills.

    So if Amn, as a larger country, is fighting on two fronts and has internal control problems, could Baldur's Gate win?
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Thank you Heindrich.

    So basically, all Baldur's Gate could hope for would be to maybe take Nashkel, fortify the mountainous border, and then sue for peace? Asking for so little that it wouldn't be worth mobilizing the empire for war.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited March 2015
    Not sure if you have seen this but its a work in progress that sort of relates to the topic at hand.

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/37704/the-eve-of-war-work-in-progress
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited December 2015
    Grum said:

    Thank you Heindrich.

    So basically, all Baldur's Gate could hope for would be to maybe take Nashkel, fortify the mountainous border, and then sue for peace? Asking for so little that it wouldn't be worth mobilizing the empire for war.

    I don't think taking Nashkel would be that great of a move as far as Baldur's Gate is concerned. I mean if they did that prior to the winter (when Amn's response through the use of land forces and ships would be more limited) it might work, assuming of course Amn was willing to negotiate, but Baldur's Gate (the game) starts in our equivalent of May. Nashkel is also only about 2,000 feet above sea level (which makes it less high than most of the Appalachian mountains). I can't find any other information on how high the Cloud Peaks get but at the time of the year the game is set but either I don't think there are really the conditions present to stop Amn from just taking Nashkel back.

    Plus Athkatla alone (not all of Amn just the city) apparently has 8 ships, 900 sea warriors, and about 4,000 troops. Plus probably another 1200 mercenaries hired as "guards" by the various merchant families in the city (Lands and Intrigue lists 12 mercantile families and says they each have anywhere between 100 to 500 "guards" with 500 being the legal limit).

    According to "Forgotten Realms Adventures" Baldur's Gate has around 1700 flaming fist Mercenaries.

    So I think Baldur's Gate splitting their forces by attacking Nashkel would be a mistake. Amn can after all just bypass Nashkel and attack Baldur's Gate directly thanks to its access to the sea.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited March 2015
    Well it does also say that Amn's military is poorly organized and that it is considered to be the "least prestigious" task amongst the tasks the Council of Six normally take care of. It could also be that a larger number of troops being present in the city would attract the ire of the Shadow Thieves.

    After all those 5000 troops only represents one facet of power within the city. You also have mercantile companies being hired out by people and the shadow thieves exercising their control over the city.

    That said I won't really totally defend these books either. Lands of Intrigue claims that Athkatla goes from having 130,000 people in the winter and spring to 400,000 people in the summer. I'm not saying that that isn't possible, but it does seem very unlikely.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    It could just mean that the census takers don't make that much of an effort to get around in winter...and during the summer you have lots of cheap foreign labor/merchants coming in.

    As for Baldur's Gate, they don't need to win a war per se.

    Amn: Huge nation, unorganized military, many rivals, being invaded by a large abhuman army
    Baldur's Gate: City State with a highly organized military

    The 'war' would be fought over Amn supposedly trying to destabilize the region. So all that Baldur's Gate would have to do is take the strategic mountain passes and defend them. Move a wee bit into Amnian territory. Take so little that the Council of Six wouldn't see it as a real loss ("oh no...we lost a single iron mine and a tiny village, along with some wilderness areas"). Make it not worth attacking. ("We *could* send in our forces to crush them...but it would be really costly, and we need those soldiers fighting the hobgoblins/goblins/orcs/giants/etc, which are ravaging the south"). And with the Navy....Baldur's Gate has its own fleet and it most likely has its own fair share of merchants.

    No, Baldur's Gate can't compete with the Amnian Navy, but if Amn does send its own fleet, Baldur's Gate can still harass it. It has its own sea fortress and walls to defend itself. And it apparently has the Lord's Alliance, who could probably loan them a few ships/merchant marines/privateers.


    So basically, the war would be Baldur's Gate striking a balance where they are taking just enough to make a point to their own people, but not enough to really make a war worthwhile to Amn. If anything, both sides do a few token skirmishes, make a deal and go back to a status quo, so both governments can show their people how powerful they really are.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    edited March 2015
    @Grum Unfortunately that's not how people work. No matter how tiny a loss, the pride of the Amnish people will probably make them attack with vengeance. Look at something like 9/11. Couple of buildings and a few people -> let's invade the f***ers.

    Hence, I would say BG attack Amn would be the dumbest thing. However, if Amn decided to attack BG, I think they have a chance of fending them off (unless Amn puts EVERYTHING into it, which isn't likely). Does that count as a victory?
  • HeindrichHeindrich Member, Moderator Posts: 2,959
    Actually what @elminster said above reminded me of the foolishness of Sarevok's apparent strategy (though technically Sarevok's plan was never to win the war anyway). He proposes an attack to seize Nashkel and fortify the mountain pass from Amn... even assuming that Nashkel really is defensible and that the mountains provide an effective land bottleneck (which @elminster believes isn't the case), both Baldur's Gate and Athktla are major port cities... and Amn is a maritime empire, so Baldur's Gate is hilariously vulnerable to attack by sea and has no chance of winning any prolonged naval war. The supply of iron would be rather irrelevant if Amn just blockades all land and sea trade routes and starves the city.
    FinneousPJ said:

    @Grum Unfortunately that's not how people work. No matter how tiny a loss, the pride of the Amnish people will probably make them attack with vengeance. Look at something like 9/11. Couple of buildings and a few people -> let's invade the f***ers.

    In fairness, 9/11 was pretty huge, both in terms of human loss (nearly 3,000), property/economic damage and symbolism. Invading Afghanistan was a reasonable response to strike back at Al-Qaeda, which accepted responsibility for the attack. The Iraq War however... (in my assessment) was a cynical move by Neo-Cons to exploit the political capital from 9/11 to achieve other less reasonable goals. But I'd rather not de-rail this thread any further with real politics/history. If you or anyone else would like to add to this subject area, may I recommend this thread or this thread.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Oh, I'm sure the 20 000 civilian victims agree with you it was "a reasonable response". If you don't want to derail the thread, why did you post that? I was just using a simple real life example to make an on-topic point.
  • Fiendish_WarriorFiendish_Warrior Member Posts: 309
    Anything is possible re: the navy. I remember a few Athenians with freshly-built Corinthian triremes decimating the Persian navy. If BG gets creative enough and Amn gets foolish enough, who knows? I don't know anything about the Sea of Moonshae, but geographically speaking, it looks like a great place to spring a trap for the Amnian navy, assuming they fall for it.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    I guess by convince you mean: murder all of the dukes and replace both them and the nobles with dopplegangers.

    Seriously...how many important nobles were replaced by the end of BG1? Those shapechangers came damned close to having a political monopoly in the Gate.
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,266
    I have a question that I was always confused by.
    I know that full out war did not break out in Baldur's Gate 1, but it seems as though there was still some sort of battle between Amn and Baldur's Gate that is hinted at near the end. I can't remember anything else about this, though. Can someone please fill in the blanks for me?
    If they didn't go to war, why was there a battle between them?
Sign In or Register to comment.

2024 Overhaul Games, a division of Beamdog. © 2024 Hasbro, Inc. All Rights Reserved. Baldur's Gate, Dungeons & Dragons, D&D, Forgotten Realms, Baldur's Gate, Wizards of the Coast and their logos are trademarks of Wizards of the Coast LLC in the U.S.A. and other countries, and are used with permission. Hasbro and its logo are trademarks of Hasbro, Inc. and are used with permission. © 1998 BioWare Corp. All Rights Reserved. BioWare, the BioWare Infinity Engine and the BioWare logo are trademarks of Bioware Corp. Black Isle Studios and the Black Isle Studios logo are trademarks of Interplay Entertainment Corp. Atari and the Atari logo are trademarks owned by Atari Interactive, Inc. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.