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What would you say is the worst class or kit to dual class from?

thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 218
Can be any class or class kit that can make a legal dual class into another class. Whether for reasons that involve the abilities of the first class or the lack of good compatibility with the class(es) that it can be dual classed into.

I would probably have to say the Wizard Slayer myself. The advantages themselves aren't really that great to begin with as other classes do what they do but better and without the restrictions they have. Plus, if dual classing then your magic resistance that you will have is going to usually be a non factor at 15% or less, it's rarely going to be able to save you in a battle and in BG1 levels it won't offer much protection even against high damage spells. Possibly the worst part is you won't be able to make much use of magical equipment, particularly magic items meant to be used by your 2nd class. So if you wanted to use some incredibly useful items then it's a bummer, or give yourself some equipment to raise resistance to something coupled with your innate Wizard Slayer magic resistance for a little extra.

Something around 10-15% magic resistance by itself usually won't help much, but having something that gives you 50% resistance to something like fire damage means that 65% is a good thing to have over just 50%. But you probably won't be able to get much of that without specific weapons or armor, and are very reliant on your base stats. Speaking of stats, you'll have to have the prime stat of the class you want to dual class into at least a 17, drawing points away from the physical stats you'll be very reliant on without the benefit of so many magical items.

The Kensai and the Berserker kits simply put, make better dual classing options than the Wizard Slayer cousin. And some of the Paladin kits would be better dealing with spellcasters than would a Wizard Slayer in all likelihood. The Cavalier with their passive resistances and immunities, the Inquisitor with their powerful debuffs, the Blackguard with their Poison Weapon ability being excellent for disrupting spellcasting. Of course you can't dual class a Paladin, but they make being even a dual classed Wizard Slayer redundant cus you can get a kitted Paladin NPC in your party, or simply be a Paladin instead of a Wizard Slayer dual class since there are better dual class options out there than using a Wizard Slayer for one.

Well anyway that's just my take on it. What does everyone here think the worst class to start as for a dual class is?

Comments

  • Scythe_KnightScythe_Knight Member Posts: 23
    Kensai for pretty much anything other than a Mage or Rogue, anything else is just normally too armor dependent.

    Dual classing from Shapeshifter into Fighter would probably be pretty horrid, I simply can't think of any reason WHY you would want to do that. This covers Druids at all to some extent, but especially the Shapeshifter.

    Gozeta
  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 218
    edited March 2016
    Dual classing from Shapeshifter into Fighter would probably be pretty horrid, I simply can't think of any reason WHY you would want to do that. This covers Druids at all to some extent, but especially the Shapeshifter.

    Well to be fair, dual classing from a spellcaster into a non spellcasting class, in general, isn't considered to be a strong suit of dual classing.

    Post edited by thelovebat on
    BelgarathMTHJuliusBorisov
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    thelovebat wrote: »
    Speaking of stats, you'll have to have the prime stat of the class you want to dual class into at least a 17, drawing points away from the physical stats you'll be very reliant on without the benefit of so many magical items.

    "Volo forgets that the prime requisite of the thief is dexterity, which is perhaps the only secondary class that a Wizard Slayer should pursue." - Elminster.
    thelovebat wrote: »
    Something around 10-15% magic resistance by itself usually won't help much, but having something that gives you 50% resistance to something like fire damage means that 65% is a good thing to have over just 50%. But you probably won't be able to get much of that without specific weapons or armor, and are very reliant on your base stats.

    "Some adventurers have become so adaptable that they can unnaturally unlock the effects of weapons and armor that should normally be inaccessible. In fact, I was once accosted by a highwayman wielding the legendary Carsomyr. It's a long story, but imagine my surprise when the holy blade protected him from my spells!" - Elminster

  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Kensai for pretty much anything other than a Mage or Rogue, anything else is just normally too armor dependent.

    Dual classing from Shapeshifter into Fighter would probably be pretty horrid, I simply can't think of any reason WHY you would want to do that. This covers Druids at all to some extent, but especially the Shapeshifter.

    Beastmaster > Cleric seems pretty dreadful. Essentially a Cleric with better Thac0 and APR, but restricted to leather armor and wooden weapons (no Mace of Disruption, Crom Faeyr, Flail of Ages, etc.). Wow, I can forge my way to godhood armed with nothing but a staff, a club, and a sling.

    FinneousPJNoobacca
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,616
    edited March 2016
    A Beastmaster/Cleric is great. You see, the whole idea of the beastmaster kit is that it gets powerful summoning spells that are much lower level than they should be. Animal Summoning 3 is normally a level SIX spell, but a Beastmaster can cast it as a level THREE spell! Normally this is balanced out by the fact that they can only cast a few spells per day, but if you're using a Beastmaster/Cleric, you can cast a lot of spells.

    PhilhelmJuliusBorisovGrum[Deleted User]
  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    Wizard Slayer to Druid seems pretty awesome. Somebody throwing four daggers a round with 25% applied miscast percentage each and insect plague to boot sounds like a pretty solid anti magic user. 10% magic resistance can become more with the mad machine and hells trials, right? I think people underestimate the Wizard Slayer

    I think Bounty Hunter is awful to dual out of, they keep gaining cool traps until level 21. It's too much work to get to level 21 and start over. How many fights do you get to use all of your abilities?

    Grum
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,476
    Archer>Cleric is worse than beastmaster.
    Calledshot and favoured enemy can't replace the dps of grandmastery a fighter cleric would get with slings.

    GrumDee
  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 218
    deltago wrote: »
    Archer>Cleric is worse than beastmaster.
    Calledshot and favoured enemy can't replace the dps of grandmastery a fighter cleric would get with slings.

    Beastmaster has so many weapon restrictions that the only thing you can use your free dual wielding points for is clubs. An Archer can at least dual wield anything they want while getting a few little ranged bonuses for slings, depending on when you dual class. And some forms of non-metal armor are still better than Studded Leather. Any Ranger kit into Cleric isn't really a good choice cus of either Armor or weapon restrictions, but Beast Masters with a Cleric dual class are hardly able to make use of what's supposed to give the Ranger a slight edge to just being a Fighter, even if you dual class at the ideal level.

    Philhelm
  • CorelliaCorellia Member Posts: 22
    edited March 2016
    From fighter to cleric/druid and putting all your points into bladed weapons, or longswords. I did something similar once.

    Post edited by Corellia on
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,297
    in the vanilla bg2 days I used to start with a shape shifter and than dual over to fighter all the time, it was a great combo, have shape shifter hit level 13, get the greater werewolf, shape shift into greater werewolf, stay in greater were wolf, dual over to fighter than start pumping proficiencies in staff, and you will start to wreck shop, because even though you dualed class you still stay in your werewolf form and the werewolf forms STR stacked with the hell trial in vanilla bg2, add that in with the fact that the werewolf natural attack eventually goes away and start using the staff of the woodlands and watch the godliness unfold

    but of coarse BG2EE fixed that and now shape shifters are complete garbage

  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    thelovebat wrote: »
    Dual classing from Shapeshifter into Fighter would probably be pretty horrid, I simply can't think of any reason WHY you would want to do that. This covers Druids at all to some extent, but especially the Shapeshifter.

    Well to be fair, dual classing from a spellcaster into a non spellcasting class, in general, isn't considered to be a strong suit of dual classing.
    I have never tried it but I think a specialist mage with access to prot. magic dualed to a fighter would be pretty good. At lvl 9 you have access to lvl 5 spells which is quite good (spell immunity). You'll later get gww able to dish out conciderable damage and with protection much much better then normal ac.

    Philhelm
  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    Freche wrote: »
    thelovebat wrote: »
    Dual classing from Shapeshifter into Fighter would probably be pretty horrid, I simply can't think of any reason WHY you would want to do that. This covers Druids at all to some extent, but especially the Shapeshifter.

    Well to be fair, dual classing from a spellcaster into a non spellcasting class, in general, isn't considered to be a strong suit of dual classing.
    I have never tried it but I think a specialist mage with access to prot. magic dualed to a fighter would be pretty good. At lvl 9 you have access to lvl 5 spells which is quite good (spell immunity). You'll later get gww able to dish out conciderable damage and with protection much much better then normal ac.

    More to the point, dual classes are (unfortunately) superior when compared to pure classes, even if the strongest dual class options aren't chosen. Sure, if your goal is to be a caster, then its better to dual into the casting class, but in the example above you're a Fighter that can cast a few spells, so are still better than a pure Fighter. The only other weakness is that the Fighter won't be able to wear armor and cast spells, at least until Elven Chain is available.

    I simply view dual classes as a better version of the second class.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    A mage->fighter also has a lot fewer hit points than a single-classed fighter. Whether the spell protections are worth it is a question I've been mulling over for some time. I'm honestly unsure.

  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 218
    Jarrakul wrote: »
    A mage->fighter also has a lot fewer hit points than a single-classed fighter. Whether the spell protections are worth it is a question I've been mulling over for some time. I'm honestly unsure.

    A Cleric kit into Fighter would probably end up being better honestly. Can still wear armor as much as you want, get a few abilities you can get even at the earlier levels before you dual class, can still get some decent weapon options with blunt weapons, have some buffing spells that could still be a bit useful for your character or the party. A specialist Mage would lose out a bit cus it gives you one extra spell per spell level, but dual classing means you miss out on a majority of what makes that bonus good which is the higher level spells you won't get. The Cleric kit abilities you can at least get access to before dual classing, and can partly make up for restricting your ranged weapon selection.

    FinneousPJPhilhelm
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,155
    Cleric to Fighter is just... I don't know why you'd do it. Not only do you limit your weapon choices significantly but a lot of cleric buffs have level scaling effect or duration like Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might. Why you would ever cut off their growth is beyond me.

  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    edited March 2016
    Artemius_I wrote: »
    Cleric to Fighter is just... I don't know why you'd do it. Not only do you limit your weapon choices significantly but a lot of cleric buffs have level scaling effect or duration like Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might. Why you would ever cut off their growth is beyond me.

    I think that the right perspective is to look at dual classes as a modified version of the second class (depending on how far you dip into the first class; in this case, a Fighter with some extra Cleric spells). Of course the spell casting will be limited, since the character is mostly a Fighter. From that perspective, a Cleric > Fighter would probably be stronger than just a pure Fighter.

    I'd imagine that a Priest of Lathander 11 > Fighter X would actually be a decent build. You'd have spells and abilities such as Fighter HLAs, Boon of Lathander (x2), Protection from Evil (doesn't scale or even check alignment to my understanding), DUHM (even a +2 would make a big difference if your Strength is 18+), Chant, Righteous Magic, Resurrection, Heal, Sanctuary, Negative Plane Protection, Command, Chaotic Commands, etc. Granted, the Fighter's weapon selection would be limited to some of the best weapons in the game.

    FinneousPJthelovebat
  • thelovebatthelovebat Member Posts: 218
    Artemius_I wrote: »
    Cleric to Fighter is just... I don't know why you'd do it. Not only do you limit your weapon choices significantly but a lot of cleric buffs have level scaling effect or duration like Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might. Why you would ever cut off their growth is beyond me.

    Mage spells are generally the same way with things like spell duration or scaling power as you level up. The Cleric kit abilities at least will still be pretty useful for a Fighter in one way or another even if they don't scale up in power like a single class Cleric would have them do, and you can cast Cleric spells while wearing armor as well as using their abilities while wearing armor.

    So basically the things like damage dealing spells or things meant to get rid of enemy protections wouldn't be so good for a spellcaster dualing into something (at least in the long run), but you just have to look at how their abilities would enhance or shore up weaknesses of a Fighter who will be melee focused. Limiting the weapon choices isn't all that bad cus other NPCs are already going to be choosing from the bladed weapon selection and there are some nice blunt weapon options in both games, and you'll be able to attain grandmastery in weapons unlike a multiclass. And while slings aren't all that great for ranged, you still get a Strength bonus to damage which Fighters will do well at (should you choose to use them).

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    edited March 2016
    OlvynChuru wrote: »
    A Beastmaster/Cleric is great. You see, the whole idea of the beastmaster kit is that it gets powerful summoning spells that are much lower level than they should be. Animal Summoning 3 is normally a level SIX spell, but a Beastmaster can cast it as a level THREE spell! Normally this is balanced out by the fact that they can only cast a few spells per day, but if you're using a Beastmaster/Cleric, you can cast a lot of spells.

    Clerics already get Animate Dead though at level 3. Doesn't seem like that much of a benefit to me given that you don't have any control over what animals you end up with (and they vary considerably in terms of their ability).

    Also you won't hit level 12 as a ranger until 1.2 million xp into the series. Thats a long time to wait for some animal spells. Especially once you factor in the fact that (once dualled) you'll need about 1.1 million more experience before you hit cleric level 13.

    Personally I've played a Beast Master through the series. I'd say stick with range for BGEE then use Gnasher and Blackblood for BG2EE (with the exception of fights where you need a weapon with a better enchantment). Worked fine for me. If someone were to dual into a cleric then I wouldn't recommend they do it later than level 9.

  • FeytorFeytor Member Posts: 57
    Artemius_I wrote: »
    Cleric to Fighter is just... I don't know why you'd do it. Not only do you limit your weapon choices significantly but a lot of cleric buffs have level scaling effect or duration like Armor of Faith and Draw Upon Holy Might. Why you would ever cut off their growth is beyond me.

    Great RP reasons.

    Imagine a priest whos faith isn't strong enough to pursue this career any further.
    Given the tendencies of fantasy priests a switch to a fighter looks natural :smile:
    He stays in servivce of the church but as a guard or enforcer. His deity bestows him with minor powers.
    Perhaps dual as low as 3rd of 5th level.


    Now only to find a RP reason for a deity to give powers to a baalspawn and I do a run with this character.

  • NeverusedNeverused Member Posts: 782
    Correct me if I'm wrong @elminster , but you don't actually have to unlock all the Beastmaster spells by level to get them in the Cleric list, right? If you dualed at say, level 9 (max HP) you'd still end up with Summon Animal I, II, and III anyhow on the Cleric list at level 1, 2, and 3 respectively?

    I've actually tried to think of awful dual classes in the past, and frankly, they're all strong in something. Cleric into Fighter or Ranger is probably the worst, but even then if you wait until level 4 or 5 spells before dualing, you can get some pretty dangerous combinations with the melee buff powers and the high APR given from specialization/levels.

    Oh, wait. Cleric -> Thief. Even then... UAI fixes the Cleric restrictions, you can still use Righteous Might for maximum damage backstabs (!!!,) Sanctuary acts as a poor-man's Invisibility, and so on and so forth.

    But to actually answer the question: Bounty Hunter into anything, really, seems to be suboptimal at anything below level 21, and at that point you may as well stick it out.

  • PK2748PK2748 Member Posts: 381
    Sanctuary is better than invisibility. You can loot while under sanctuary

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,050
    Neverused wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong @elminster , but you don't actually have to unlock all the Beastmaster spells by level to get them in the Cleric list, right? If you dualed at say, level 9 (max HP) you'd still end up with Summon Animal I, II, and III anyhow on the Cleric list at level 1, 2, and 3 respectively?

    You are wrong :)

  • matricematrice Member Posts: 86
    thelovebat wrote: »
    Can be any class or class kit that can make a legal dual class into another class. Whether for reasons that involve the abilities of the first class or the lack of good compatibility with the class(es) that it can be dual classed into.
    I would probably have to say the Wizard Slayer myself.

    Wizard slayer dual into rogue is one of the tankiest thing in the whole game, and can easily reach > 100% magic resistance, which mean that later part in the game, you can literally cast any strong aoe spell (let's face it, the strongest one are damaging your party anyway -apart from lvl 10 ofc-) without having to pay attention to him.

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